http://openmoko.org/api.php?action=feedcontributions&user=Mivaho&feedformat=atomOpenmoko - User contributions [en]2024-03-29T04:59:51ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.19.24http://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Buzz_or_notTalk:Buzz or not2008-12-17T13:53:44Z<p>Mivaho: </p>
<hr />
<div>Who is "WE"? On OM-HW-EE side this poll isn't considered helpful, as it contains no info whatsoever about actual network-situation (which is widely assumed to be the cause of buzz appearing in a particular situation). Please note the original poster seems not affiliated to OM technical staff, and we (OM) might eventually ask our customers to support a different poll. Also note there's a rework paper to fix buzz, a non-verified draft for now [jOERG]<br />
----<br />
We, I like to think, are the people who are having a problem using the FreeRunner as a phone. If you want to put up an official OpenMoko poll/questionnaire please do so, but can you make it quick? Tel us how people who can't handle a soldering tool in a professional way can fix their phones. [Michel an OpenMoko '''customer''' and believer that a phone can be open source]<br />
----<br />
Finding a way to fix by starting a poll? Hmm, maybe like this:<br />
<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0"<br />
!Country<br />
!ZIP code<br />
!skills and willing to help (Y), need help(N)<br />
!contact (mail, IRC)<br />
|-<br />
|D<br />
|90429<br />
|Y max. 10 devices per week. Take beer ;-)<br />
|joerg@openmoko.org<br />
|}<br />
----<br />
Hi, you said "and we (OM) might eventually ask our customers to support a different poll" if the above is an offical OM poll then there maybe some humor left at openmoko.org :) Allthough I think the poll I started (after Steve Mosher from openmoko.com sugested it) is a bit more helpfull in solving it, or at least give some sort of overview, then in providing you with beer :) [Michel]<br />
----<br />
I prefer the beer though, as I don't see the "solving it" coming from the original poll. Overview is relative, you will find most people don't even know what band they're ACTUALLY on, and all this has been discussed thoroughly on mailing list.<br />
<br />
Well it's up to you, I'm really curious about the results we will see from this.<br />
<br />
In some wikipages, the history really is the best :-)<br />
/jOERG<br />
----<br />
This will certainly help to document if applying a fix helped to solve a problem or not. Will also help to contact people to duplicate problems so CND becomes less of an issue. [Rakshat]<br />
----<br />
Newcomers to this discussion should know that Openmoko has worked out a hardware solution to the "buzz" issue. The technical draft describing the procedure is being circulated on the mailing lists. It involves soldering a capacitor and changing a resistor. The poll that Joerg suggests above is about volunteering to fix other people's units, provided the said volunteers has the hardware skills and equipment of course. The alternative would be for owners to bring their unit and the procedure description to a cellphone repair shop (or an electronics club).<br />
The delicate question behind all this is of course liability. I cannot imagine anybody would be too happy to foot the repair bill and endorse the surgery risk (although that part would probably remain with the repair shop). Plus there are practical and legal complexities to apply the harware fix to all units: they are all over the Earth now, some have been sold direct, some through retailers. Just managing that would requires several week-persons !<br />
My understanding of the affair is that we are talking a potential product recall. Finding a software solution is still much preferable (refer to the GSM TTFF bug case). I understand that they want to give it one more try for a reasonable amount of time, but of course I am not sitting with a buggy phone^H^H^H^H^H^H brick waiting for resolution. I would probably be less patient !<br />
[[User:MinhHaDuong|MinhHaDuong]] 09:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
----<br />
I don't know of any plans inside OM to fix the buzz issue via SW. Buzz is considered resistant against all SW-fixes. The way it works is basically well understood by now, and there's just no possible vector to reasonably come up with a SW-fix for that. (of course there's always a chance we overseen a small detail that actually can be changed by some register-setting or something like that, so I had to say "we don't see any possible vector...". Filtering the buzz out of the audio-signal by some fancy algorithms running on main CPU probably isn't possible at all, due to missing DSP-grunt at least) <br />
[[User:jOERG|jOERG]] 2008-12-15<br />
----<br />
So maybe the poll was a intended as a way to try to estimate the proportion of buzzing units ? From a social science point of view, the poll on the page can not be considered helpful to that end either, this kind of "voluntary sampling" is statistically hopeless. [[User:MinhHaDuong|MinhHaDuong]] 22:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
----<br />
This poll, more a questionnaire, was put up here after a discussion on the community mailing list after I (and some other people) were wondering why one person has the buzz problem and the other hasn't. We know that in the end the problem needs a hardware fix but the idea (at least mine was) that if someone from the same country but with a different provider/carrier was not having the problem, maybe a switch to that provider (by getting a sim only, or pre-paid sim) could at least help bridge the time untill that hardware fix was applicable for everyone. I just want to start using the FreeRunner as a normal phone, but I need my sim for daily business. so if getting a pre-paid sim can help me and other users (and maybe in some way openmoko) start testing the phone it would be great if this poll would help. Of course, jOERG can explain in a technical manner why some carriers have the buzz and some not. That still does not tell which carrier gives us a buzzing or not FreeRunner.<br />
<br />
But seeing that this page isn't linked from the Buzz page anymore isn't helping this effort.<br />
<br />
I'll consider my phone a brick (as far as the phone part goes) untill OpenMoko finnaly states that the mentioned fix is official and how we and where can get it fixed. And if the fix needs field testing then lets have a poll, mentioned by jOERG, for that and tell me where I should send my phone. :)<br />
[[User:mivaho|Michel]] 2008-12-16</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Buzz_or_notTalk:Buzz or not2008-12-17T13:53:12Z<p>Mivaho: </p>
<hr />
<div>Who is "WE"? On OM-HW-EE side this poll isn't considered helpful, as it contains no info whatsoever about actual network-situation (which is widely assumed to be the cause of buzz appearing in a particular situation). Please note the original poster seems not affiliated to OM technical staff, and we (OM) might eventually ask our customers to support a different poll. Also note there's a rework paper to fix buzz, a non-verified draft for now [jOERG]<br />
----<br />
We, I like to think, are the people who are having a problem using the FreeRunner as a phone. If you want to put up an official OpenMoko poll/questionnaire please do so, but can you make it quick? Tel us how people who can't handle a soldering tool in a professional way can fix their phones. [Michel an OpenMoko '''customer''' and believer that a phone can be open source]<br />
----<br />
Finding a way to fix by starting a poll? Hmm, maybe like this:<br />
<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0"<br />
!Country<br />
!ZIP code<br />
!skills and willing to help (Y), need help(N)<br />
!contact (mail, IRC)<br />
|-<br />
|D<br />
|90429<br />
|Y max. 10 devices per week. Take beer ;-)<br />
|joerg@openmoko.org<br />
|}<br />
----<br />
Hi, you said "and we (OM) might eventually ask our customers to support a different poll" if the above is an offical OM poll then there maybe some humor left at openmoko.org :) Allthough I think the poll I started (after Steve Mosher from openmoko.com sugested it) is a bit more helpfull in solving it, or at least give some sort of overview, then in providing you with beer :) [Michel]<br />
----<br />
I prefer the beer though, as I don't see the "solving it" coming from the original poll. Overview is relative, you will find most people don't even know what band they're ACTUALLY on, and all this has been discussed thoroughly on mailing list.<br />
<br />
Well it's up to you, I'm really curious about the results we will see from this.<br />
<br />
In some wikipages, the history really is the best :-)<br />
/jOERG<br />
----<br />
This will certainly help to document if applying a fix helped to solve a problem or not. Will also help to contact people to duplicate problems so CND becomes less of an issue. [Rakshat]<br />
----<br />
Newcomers to this discussion should know that Openmoko has worked out a hardware solution to the "buzz" issue. The technical draft describing the procedure is being circulated on the mailing lists. It involves soldering a capacitor and changing a resistor. The poll that Joerg suggests above is about volunteering to fix other people's units, provided the said volunteers has the hardware skills and equipment of course. The alternative would be for owners to bring their unit and the procedure description to a cellphone repair shop (or an electronics club).<br />
The delicate question behind all this is of course liability. I cannot imagine anybody would be too happy to foot the repair bill and endorse the surgery risk (although that part would probably remain with the repair shop). Plus there are practical and legal complexities to apply the harware fix to all units: they are all over the Earth now, some have been sold direct, some through retailers. Just managing that would requires several week-persons !<br />
My understanding of the affair is that we are talking a potential product recall. Finding a software solution is still much preferable (refer to the GSM TTFF bug case). I understand that they want to give it one more try for a reasonable amount of time, but of course I am not sitting with a buggy phone^H^H^H^H^H^H brick waiting for resolution. I would probably be less patient !<br />
[[User:MinhHaDuong|MinhHaDuong]] 09:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
----<br />
I don't know of any plans inside OM to fix the buzz issue via SW. Buzz is considered resistant against all SW-fixes. The way it works is basically well understood by now, and there's just no possible vector to reasonably come up with a SW-fix for that. (of course there's always a chance we overseen a small detail that actually can be changed by some register-setting or something like that, so I had to say "we don't see any possible vector...". Filtering the buzz out of the audio-signal by some fancy algorithms running on main CPU probably isn't possible at all, due to missing DSP-grunt at least) <br />
[[User:jOERG|jOERG]] 2008-12-15<br />
----<br />
So maybe the poll was a intended as a way to try to estimate the proportion of buzzing units ? From a social science point of view, the poll on the page can not be considered helpful to that end either, this kind of "voluntary sampling" is statistically hopeless. [[User:MinhHaDuong|MinhHaDuong]] 22:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
----<br />
This poll, more a questionnaire, was put up here after a discussion on the community mailing list after I (and some other people) were wondering why one person has the buzz problem and the other hasn't. We know that in the end the problem needs a hardware fix but the idea (at least mine was) that if someone from the same country but with a different provider/carrier was not having the problem, maybe a switch to that provider (by getting a sim only, or pre-paid sim) could at least help bridge the time untill that hardware fix was applicable for everyone. I just want to start using the FreeRunner as a normal phone, but I need my sim for daily business. so if getting a pre-paid sim can help me and other users (and maybe in some way openmoko) start testing the phone it would be great if this poll would help. Of course, jOERG can explain in a technical manner why some carriers have the buzz and some not. That still does not tell which carrier gives us a buzzing or not FreeRunner.<br />
<br />
But seeing that this page isn't linked from the Buzz page anymore isn't helping this effort.<br />
<br />
I'll consider my phone a brick (as far as the phone part goes) untill OpenMoko finnaly states that the mentioned fix is official and how where can get it fixed. And if the fix needs field testing then lets have a poll, mentioned by jOERG, for that and tell me where I should send my phone. :)<br />
[[User:mivaho|Michel]] 2008-12-16</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/User:MivahoUser:Mivaho2008-12-16T11:08:24Z<p>Mivaho: New page: Open Source User and writing about it at www.opensourcenieuws.nl</p>
<hr />
<div>Open Source User and writing about it at www.opensourcenieuws.nl</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Buzz_or_notTalk:Buzz or not2008-12-16T11:06:16Z<p>Mivaho: </p>
<hr />
<div>Who is "WE"? On OM-HW-EE side this poll isn't considered helpful, as it contains no info whatsoever about actual network-situation (which is widely assumed to be the cause of buzz appearing in a particular situation). Please note the original poster seems not affiliated to OM technical staff, and we (OM) might eventually ask our customers to support a different poll. Also note there's a rework paper to fix buzz, a non-verified draft for now [jOERG]<br />
----<br />
We, I like to think, are the people who are having a problem using the FreeRunner as a phone. If you want to put up an official OpenMoko poll/questionnaire please do so, but can you make it quick? Tel us how people who can't handle a soldering tool in a professional way can fix their phones. [Michel an OpenMoko '''customer''' and believer that a phone can be open source]<br />
----<br />
Finding a way to fix by starting a poll? Hmm, maybe like this:<br />
<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0"<br />
!Country<br />
!ZIP code<br />
!skills and willing to help (Y), need help(N)<br />
!contact (mail, IRC)<br />
|-<br />
|D<br />
|90429<br />
|Y max. 10 devices per week. Take beer ;-)<br />
|joerg@openmoko.org<br />
|}<br />
----<br />
Hi, you said "and we (OM) might eventually ask our customers to support a different poll" if the above is an offical OM poll then there maybe some humor left at openmoko.org :) Allthough I think the poll I started (after Steve Mosher from openmoko.com sugested it) is a bit more helpfull in solving it, or at least give some sort of overview, then in providing you with beer :) [Michel]<br />
----<br />
I prefer the beer though, as I don't see the "solving it" coming from the original poll. Overview is relative, you will find most people don't even know what band they're ACTUALLY on, and all this has been discussed thoroughly on mailing list.<br />
<br />
Well it's up to you, I'm really curious about the results we will see from this.<br />
<br />
In some wikipages, the history really is the best :-)<br />
/jOERG<br />
----<br />
This will certainly help to document if applying a fix helped to solve a problem or not. Will also help to contact people to duplicate problems so CND becomes less of an issue. [Rakshat]<br />
----<br />
Newcomers to this discussion should know that Openmoko has worked out a hardware solution to the "buzz" issue. The technical draft describing the procedure is being circulated on the mailing lists. It involves soldering a capacitor and changing a resistor. The poll that Joerg suggests above is about volunteering to fix other people's units, provided the said volunteers has the hardware skills and equipment of course. The alternative would be for owners to bring their unit and the procedure description to a cellphone repair shop (or an electronics club).<br />
The delicate question behind all this is of course liability. I cannot imagine anybody would be too happy to foot the repair bill and endorse the surgery risk (although that part would probably remain with the repair shop). Plus there are practical and legal complexities to apply the harware fix to all units: they are all over the Earth now, some have been sold direct, some through retailers. Just managing that would requires several week-persons !<br />
My understanding of the affair is that we are talking a potential product recall. Finding a software solution is still much preferable (refer to the GSM TTFF bug case). I understand that they want to give it one more try for a reasonable amount of time, but of course I am not sitting with a buggy phone^H^H^H^H^H^H brick waiting for resolution. I would probably be less patient !<br />
[[User:MinhHaDuong|MinhHaDuong]] 09:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
----<br />
I don't know of any plans inside OM to fix the buzz issue via SW. Buzz is considered resistant against all SW-fixes. The way it works is basically well understood by now, and there's just no possible vector to reasonably come up with a SW-fix for that. (of course there's always a chance we overseen a small detail that actually can be changed by some register-setting or something like that, so I had to say "we don't see any possible vector...". Filtering the buzz out of the audio-signal by some fancy algorithms running on main CPU probably isn't possible at all, due to missing DSP-grunt at least) <br />
[[User:jOERG|jOERG]] 2008-12-15<br />
----<br />
So maybe the poll was a intended as a way to try to estimate the proportion of buzzing units ? From a social science point of view, the poll on the page can not be considered helpful to that end either, this kind of "voluntary sampling" is statistically hopeless. [[User:MinhHaDuong|MinhHaDuong]] 22:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
----<br />
This poll, more a questionnaire, was put up here after a discussion on the community mailing list after I (and some other people) were wondering why one person has the buzz problem and the other hasn't. We know that in the end the problem needs a hardware fix but the idea (at least mine was) that if someone from the same country but with a different provider/carrier was not having the problem, maybe a switch to that provider (by getting a sim only, or pre-paid sim) could at least help bridge the time untill that hardware fix was applicable for everyone. I just want to start using the FreeRunner as a normal phone, but I need my sim for daily business. so if getting a pre-paid sim can help me and other users (and maybe in some way openmoko) start testing the phone it would be great if this poll would help. Of course, jOERG can explain in a technical manner why some carriers have the buzz and some not. That still does not tell which carrier gives us a buzzing or not FreeRunner.<br />
<br />
But seeing that this page isn't linked from the Buzz page anymore isn't helping this effort.<br />
<br />
I'll consider my phone a brick (as far as the phone part goes) untill OpenMoko finnaly states that the mentioned fix is official and how were we can get it fixed. And if the fix needs field testing then lets have a poll, mentioned by jOERG, for that and tell me were I should send my phone. :)<br />
[[User:mivaho|Michel]] 2008-12-16</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Buzz_or_notTalk:Buzz or not2008-12-11T19:38:34Z<p>Mivaho: </p>
<hr />
<div>Who is "WE"? On OM-HW-EE side this poll isn't considered helpful, as it contains no info whatsoever about actual network-situation (which is widely assumed to be the cause of buzz appearing in a particular situation). Please note the original poster seems not affiliated to OM technical staff, and we (OM) might eventually ask our customers to support a different poll. Also note there's a rework paper to fix buzz, a non-verified draft for now [jOERG]<br />
----<br />
We, I like to think, are the people who are having a problem using the FreeRunner as a phone. If you want to put up an official OpenMoko poll/questionnaire please do so, but can you make it quick? Tel us how people who can't handle a soldering tool in a professional way can fix their phones. [Michel an OpenMoko '''customer''' and believer that a phone can be open source]<br />
----<br />
Finding a way to fix by starting a poll? Hmm, maybe like this:<br />
<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0"<br />
!Country<br />
!ZIP code<br />
!skills and willing to help (Y), need help(N)<br />
!contact (mail, IRC)<br />
|-<br />
|D<br />
|90429<br />
|Y max. 10 devices per week. Take beer ;-)<br />
|joerg@openmoko.org<br />
|}<br />
----<br />
Hi, you said "and we (OM) might eventually ask our customers to support a different poll" if the above is an offical OM poll then there maybe some humor left at openmoko.org :) Allthough I think the poll I started (after Steve Mosher from openmoko.com sugested it) is a bit more helpfull in solving it, or at least give some sort of overview, then in providing you with beer :) [Michel]<br />
----</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Buzz_or_notTalk:Buzz or not2008-12-11T19:38:06Z<p>Mivaho: </p>
<hr />
<div>Who is "WE"? On OM-HW-EE side this poll isn't considered helpful, as it contains no info whatsoever about actual network-situation (which is widely assumed to be the cause of buzz appearing in a particular situation). Please note the original poster seems not affiliated to OM technical staff, and we (OM) might eventually ask our customers to support a different poll. Also note there's a rework paper to fix buzz, a non-verified draft for now [jOERG]<br />
----<br />
We, I like to think, are the people who are having a problem using the FreeRunner as a phone. If you want to put up an official OpenMoko poll/questionnaire please do so, but can you make it quick? Tel us how people who can't handle a soldering tool in a professional way can fix their phones. [Michel an OpenMoko '''customer''' and believer that a phone can be open source]<br />
----<br />
Finding a way to fix by starting a poll? Hmm, maybe like this:<br />
<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0"<br />
!Country<br />
!ZIP code<br />
!skills and willing to help (Y), need help(N)<br />
!contact (mail, IRC)<br />
|-<br />
|D<br />
|90429<br />
|Y max. 10 devices per week. Take beer ;-)<br />
|joerg@openmoko.org<br />
|}<br />
----<br />
Hi, you said "and we (OM) might eventually ask our customers to support a different poll" if the above is an offical OM poll then there maybe some humor left at openmoko.org :) Allthough I think the poll I started (after Steve Mosher from openmoko.com sugested it) is a bit more helpfull, or at least give some sort of overview, in solving it then in providing you with beer :) [Michel]<br />
----</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Buzz_or_notTalk:Buzz or not2008-12-11T19:37:06Z<p>Mivaho: </p>
<hr />
<div>Who is "WE"? On OM-HW-EE side this poll isn't considered helpful, as it contains no info whatsoever about actual network-situation (which is widely assumed to be the cause of buzz appearing in a particular situation). Please note the original poster seems not affiliated to OM technical staff, and we (OM) might eventually ask our customers to support a different poll. Also note there's a rework paper to fix buzz, a non-verified draft for now [jOERG]<br />
----<br />
We, I like to think, are the people who are having a problem using the FreeRunner as a phone. If you want to put up an official OpenMoko poll/questionnaire please do so, but can you make it quick? Tel us how people who can't handle a soldering tool in a professional way can fix their phones. [Michel an OpenMoko '''customer''' and believer that a phone can be open source]<br />
----<br />
Finding a way to fix by starting a poll? Hmm, maybe like this:<br />
<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0"<br />
!Country<br />
!ZIP code<br />
!skills and willing to help (Y), need help(N)<br />
!contact (mail, IRC)<br />
|-<br />
|D<br />
|90429<br />
|Y max. 10 devices per week. Take beer ;-)<br />
|joerg@openmoko.org<br />
|}<br />
----<br />
Hi, you said "and we (OM) might eventually ask our customers to support a different poll" if the above is an offical OM poll then there maybe some humor left at openmoko.org :) Allthough I think the poll I started (after Steve Mosher from openmoko.com sugested it) is a bit more helpfull in solving it then in providing you with beer :) [Michel]<br />
----</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Buzz_or_notTalk:Buzz or not2008-12-11T19:35:36Z<p>Mivaho: </p>
<hr />
<div>Who is "WE"? On OM-HW-EE side this poll isn't considered helpful, as it contains no info whatsoever about actual network-situation (which is widely assumed to be the cause of buzz appearing in a particular situation). Please note the original poster seems not affiliated to OM technical staff, and we (OM) might eventually ask our customers to support a different poll. Also note there's a rework paper to fix buzz, a non-verified draft for now [jOERG]<br />
----<br />
We, I like to think, are the people who are having a problem using the FreeRunner as a phone. If you want to put up an official OpenMoko poll/questionnaire please do so, but can you make it quick? Tel us how people who can't handle a soldering tool in a professional way can fix their phones. [Michel an OpenMoko '''customer''' and believer that a phone can be open source]<br />
----<br />
Finding a way to fix by starting a poll? Hmm, maybe like this:<br />
<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0"<br />
!Country<br />
!ZIP code<br />
!skills and willing to help (Y), need help(N)<br />
!contact (mail, IRC)<br />
|-<br />
|D<br />
|90429<br />
|Y max. 10 devices per week. Take beer ;-)<br />
|joerg@openmoko.org<br />
|}<br />
----<br />
Hi, you said "and we (OM) might eventually ask our customers to support a different poll" if the above is an offical OM poll then there maybe some humor left at openmoko.org :) [Michel]<br />
----</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Buzz_or_notTalk:Buzz or not2008-12-11T19:34:09Z<p>Mivaho: </p>
<hr />
<div>Who is "WE"? On OM-HW-EE side this poll isn't considered helpful, as it contains no info whatsoever about actual network-situation (which is widely assumed to be the cause of buzz appearing in a particular situation). Please note the original poster seems not affiliated to OM technical staff, and we (OM) might eventually ask our customers to support a different poll. Also note there's a rework paper to fix buzz, a non-verified draft for now [jOERG]<br />
----<br />
We, I like to think, are the people who are having a problem using the FreeRunner as a phone. If you want to put up an official OpenMoko poll/questionnaire please do so, but can you make it quick? Tel us how people who can't handle a soldering tool in a professional way can fix their phones. [Michel an OpenMoko '''customer''' and believer that a phone can be open source]<br />
----<br />
Finding a way to fix by starting a poll? Hmm, maybe like this:<br />
<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0"<br />
!Country<br />
!ZIP code<br />
!skills and willing to help (Y), need help(N)<br />
!contact (mail, IRC)<br />
|-<br />
|D<br />
|90429<br />
|Y max. 10 devices per week. Take beer ;-)<br />
|joerg@openmoko.org<br />
|}<br />
----</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Buzz_or_notBuzz or not2008-12-11T19:33:23Z<p>Mivaho: /* Who suffers from the buzz and who doesn't? */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Who suffers from the buzz and who doesn't? ==<br />
<br />
We, people who have a phone with an anoying buzz (and because off that are not able to place normal phone calls with this phone), need your input to identify why only some people suffer from the infamous buzz problem ([http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/883 #883] [http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1352 #1352]).<br />
<br />
Discussions are [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Buzz_or_not here]<br />
<br />
Put your information in the form below.<br />
<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0"<br />
!Name<br />
!Country<br />
!Buzz Y/N<br />
![http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1267 Echo] Y/N<br />
![http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1841 WSOD] Y/N<br />
![http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1024 Bouncing Calypso] Y/N<br />
!Date code (1)<br />
!s/n<br />
!p/n<br />
!Carrier<br />
!Mhz (2)<br />
!Distro<br />
!Remarks/Comments<br />
|-<br />
|mivaho<br />
|NL<br />
|Y<br />
|?<br />
|N<br />
|?<br />
|20080617<br />
|8A8603161<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|T-Mobile<br />
|900<br />
|FSO 4.1<br />
|Didn't test buzz with headset<br />
|-<br />
|Rakshat<br />
|India<br />
|N<br />
|N<br />
|N<br />
|?<br />
|20080618<br />
|8A8602471<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|Airtel<br />
|900<br />
|QTExtended4.2.2<br />
|No echo since flashing QTExtended<br />
|-<br />
|Vasco Nevoa<br />
|Portugal<br />
|Y<br />
|Y<br />
|N<br />
|N<br />
|20080621<br />
|8A8602272<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|Optimus (mostly GSM1800)<br />
|900<br />
|OM2008 testing (20081211)<br />
|Didn't test buzz with headset<br />
|-<br />
|Andreas Fischer<br />
|Germany<br />
|N<br />
|Y<br />
|N<br />
|?<br />
|20080725<br />
|8A8710691<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|O2 (Telefonica)<br />
|900<br />
|OM2008 testing (20081211)<br />
|Didn't test buzz with headset<br />
|-<br />
|Simon Fiebiger<br />
|Germany<br />
|Y<br />
|Y<br />
|N<br />
|?<br />
|20080722<br />
|8A8704112<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|Fonic / Blau<br />
|1800 / 1800<br />
|OM2008 testing (20081211)/ SHR<br />
|tested w/o Headset - Buzz only with GSM1800<br />
|-<br />
|Simon Fiebiger<br />
|Germany<br />
|N<br />
|Y<br />
|N<br />
|?<br />
|20080722<br />
|8A8704112<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|Vodafone / Congstar<br />
|900 / 900<br />
|OM2008 testing (20081211)/ SHR<br />
|tested w/o Headset - No Buzz at all with GSM900<br />
|-<br />
|Drac<br />
|Canada<br />
|Y<br />
|Y<br />
|?<br />
|?<br />
|20080620<br />
|8A8604782<br />
|56-21146-00<br />
|Fido<br />
|850 / 1900<br />
|QTExt 4.2.2 / FDOM 23Oct<br />
|Buzz 90% of the time , Echo 30% using QtExt<br />
|-<br />
|Nathan Kinkade<br />
|U.S.A.<br />
|N<br />
|N<br />
|N<br />
|?<br />
|20080621<br />
|8A8604521<br />
|56-21146-00<br />
|T-Mobile / AT&T<br />
|850<br />
|FDOM (QtExt. 4.2.2, Om2008.[8,9])<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
|marrano<br />
|Italy<br />
|Y<br />
|Y<br />
|Y<br />
|?<br />
|20080521<br />
|8B8400153<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|Wind<br />
|900<br />
|every<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
|Treviño<br />
|Italy<br />
|N<br />
|Y<br />
|N<br />
|N<br />
|20080621<br />
|8A8603221<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|Wind<br />
|900<br />
|Om2008<br />
|Echo solved by using the Calypso hidden commands.<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
|ArteK<br />
|Poland<br />
|N<br />
|Y<br />
|N(with latest SHR kernel)<br />
|N<br />
|20080621<br />
|8A8603193<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|Orange<br />
|900<br />
|SHR<br />
|Echo solved by using the Calypso hidden commands, Didn't test buzz with headset<br />
|}<br />
<br />
<br />
1 = Date code on phone (under battery)<br />
<br />
2 = 850 (USA,etc.) or 900 (Europe,etc.)</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Buzz_or_notTalk:Buzz or not2008-12-11T19:32:09Z<p>Mivaho: New page: Who is "WE"? On OM-HW-EE side this poll isn't considered helpful, as it contains no info whatsoever about actual network-situation (which is widely assumed to be the cause of buzz appearin...</p>
<hr />
<div>Who is "WE"? On OM-HW-EE side this poll isn't considered helpful, as it contains no info whatsoever about actual network-situation (which is widely assumed to be the cause of buzz appearing in a particular situation). Please note the original poster seems not affiliated to OM technical staff, and we (OM) might eventually ask our customers to support a different poll. Also note there's a rework paper to fix buzz, a non-verified draft for now [jOERG]<br />
<br />
We, I like to think, are the people who are having a problem using the FreeRunner as a phone. If you want to put up an official OpenMoko poll/questionnaire please do so, but can you make it quick? Tel us how people who can't handle a soldering tool in a professional way can fix their phones. [Michel an OpenMoko '''customer''' and believer that a phone can be open source]<br />
<br />
Finding a way to fix by starting a poll? Hmm, maybe like this:<br />
<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0"<br />
!Country<br />
!ZIP code<br />
!skills and willing to help (Y), need help(N)<br />
!contact (mail, IRC)<br />
|-<br />
|D<br />
|90429<br />
|Y max. 10 devices per week. Take beer ;-)<br />
|joerg@openmoko.org<br />
|}</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Buzz_or_notBuzz or not2008-12-11T18:18:13Z<p>Mivaho: /* Who suffers from the buzz and who doesn't? */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Who suffers from the buzz and who doesn't? ==<br />
<br />
We, people who have a phone with an anoying buzz (and because off that are not able to place normal phone calls with this phone), need your input to identify why only some people suffer from the infamous buzz problem<br />
<br />
Who is "WE"? On OM-HW-EE side this poll isn't considered helpful, as it contains no info whatsoever about actual network-situation (which is widely assumed to be the cause of buzz appearing in a particular situation). Please note the original poster seems not affiliated to OM technical staff, and we (OM) might eventually ask our customers to support a different poll. Also note there's a rework paper to fix buzz, a non-verified draft for now [jOERG]<br />
<br />
We, I like to think, are the people who are having a problem using the FreeRunner as a phone. If you want to put up an official OpenMoko poll/questionnaire please do so, but can you make it quick? Tel us how people who can't handle a soldering tool in a professional way can fix their phones. [Michel an OpenMoko '''customer''' and believer that a phone can be open source] <br />
<br />
([http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/883 #883] [http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1352 #1352]).<br />
<br />
Put your information in the form below.<br />
<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0"<br />
!Name<br />
!Country<br />
!Buzz Y/N<br />
![http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1267 Echo] Y/N<br />
![http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1841 WSOD] Y/N<br />
![http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1024 Bouncing Calypso] Y/N<br />
!Date code (1)<br />
!s/n<br />
!p/n<br />
!Carrier<br />
!Mhz (2)<br />
!Distro<br />
!Remarks/Comments<br />
|-<br />
|mivaho<br />
|NL<br />
|Y<br />
|?<br />
|N<br />
|?<br />
|20080617<br />
|8A8603161<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|T-Mobile<br />
|900<br />
|FSO 4.1<br />
|Didn't test buzz with headset<br />
|-<br />
|Rakshat<br />
|India<br />
|N<br />
|N<br />
|N<br />
|?<br />
|20080618<br />
|8A8602471<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|Airtel<br />
|900<br />
|QTExtended4.2.2<br />
|No echo since flashing QTExtended<br />
|-<br />
|Vasco Nevoa<br />
|Portugal<br />
|Y<br />
|Y<br />
|N<br />
|N<br />
|20080621<br />
|8A8602272<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|Optimus (mostly GSM1800)<br />
|900<br />
|OM2008 testing (20081211)<br />
|Didn't test buzz with headset<br />
|-<br />
|Andreas Fischer<br />
|Germany<br />
|N<br />
|Y<br />
|N<br />
|?<br />
|20080725<br />
|8A8710691<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|O2 (Telefonica)<br />
|900<br />
|OM2008 testing (20081211)<br />
|Didn't test buzz with headset<br />
|-<br />
|Simon Fiebiger<br />
|Germany<br />
|Y<br />
|Y<br />
|N<br />
|?<br />
|20080722<br />
|8A8704112<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|Fonic / Blau<br />
|1800 / 1800<br />
|OM2008 testing (20081211)/ SHR<br />
|tested w/o Headset - Buzz only with GSM1800<br />
|-<br />
|Simon Fiebiger<br />
|Germany<br />
|N<br />
|Y<br />
|N<br />
|?<br />
|20080722<br />
|8A8704112<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|Vodafone / Congstar<br />
|900 / 900<br />
|OM2008 testing (20081211)/ SHR<br />
|tested w/o Headset - No Buzz at all with GSM900<br />
|-<br />
|Drac<br />
|Canada<br />
|Y<br />
|Y<br />
|?<br />
|?<br />
|20080620<br />
|8A8604782<br />
|56-21146-00<br />
|Fido<br />
|850 / 1900<br />
|QTExt 4.2.2 / FDOM 23Oct<br />
|Buzz 90% of the time , Echo 30% using QtExt<br />
|-<br />
|Nathan Kinkade<br />
|U.S.A.<br />
|N<br />
|N<br />
|N<br />
|?<br />
|20080621<br />
|8A8604521<br />
|56-21146-00<br />
|T-Mobile / AT&T<br />
|850<br />
|FDOM (QtExt. 4.2.2, Om2008.[8,9])<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
|marrano<br />
|Italy<br />
|Y<br />
|Y<br />
|Y<br />
|?<br />
|20080521<br />
|8B8400153<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|Wind<br />
|900<br />
|every<br />
|<br />
|}<br />
<br />
1 = Date code on phone (under battery)<br />
<br />
2 = 850 (USA,etc.) or 900 (Europe,etc.)</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Buzz_or_notBuzz or not2008-12-11T14:23:55Z<p>Mivaho: /* Who suffers from the buzz and who doesn't? */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Who suffers from the buzz and who doesn't? ==<br />
<br />
We need your input to identify why only some people suffer from the infamous buzz problem ([http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/883 #883] [http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1352 #1352]).<br />
<br />
Put your information in the form below.<br />
<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0"<br />
!Name<br />
!Country<br />
!Buzz Y/N<br />
!Echo Y/N<br />
!WSOD Y/N<br />
!Bouncing Calypso Y/N<br />
!Date code (1)<br />
!s/n<br />
!p/n<br />
!Carrier<br />
!Mhz (2)<br />
!Distro<br />
!Remarks/Comments<br />
|-<br />
|mivaho<br />
|NL<br />
|Y<br />
|?<br />
|N<br />
|?<br />
|20080617<br />
|8A8603161<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|T-Mobile<br />
|900<br />
|FSO 4.1<br />
|Didn't test buzz with headset<br />
|-<br />
|Rakshat<br />
|India<br />
|N<br />
|N<br />
|N<br />
|?<br />
|20080618<br />
|8A8602471<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|Airtel<br />
|900<br />
|QTExtended4.2.2<br />
|No echo since flashing QTExtended<br />
|-<br />
|Vasco Nevoa<br />
|Portugal<br />
|Y<br />
|Y<br />
|N<br />
|N<br />
|20080621<br />
|8A8602272<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|Optimus<br />
|900<br />
|OM2008 testing (20081211)<br />
|Didn't test buzz with headset<br />
|-<br />
|Andreas Fischer<br />
|Germany<br />
|N<br />
|Y<br />
|N<br />
|?<br />
|20080725<br />
|8A8710691<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|O2 (Telefonica)<br />
|900<br />
|OM2008 testing (20081211)<br />
|Didn't test buzz with headset<br />
|}<br />
<br />
1 = Date code on phone (under battery)<br />
<br />
2 = 850 (USA,etc.) or 900 (Europe,etc.)</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Buzz_or_notBuzz or not2008-12-11T13:40:33Z<p>Mivaho: /* Who suffers from the buzz and who doesn't? */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Who suffers from the buzz and who doesn't? ==<br />
<br />
We need your input to identify why only some people suffer from the infamous buzz problem ([http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/883 #883] [http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1352 #1352]).<br />
<br />
Put your information in the form below.<br />
<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0"<br />
!Name<br />
!Country<br />
!Buzz Y/N<br />
!Echo Y/N<br />
!WSOD Y/N<br />
!Bouncing Clypso Y/N<br />
!Date code (1)<br />
!s/n<br />
!p/n<br />
!Carrier<br />
!Mhz (2)<br />
!Distro<br />
!Remarks/Comments<br />
|-<br />
|mivaho<br />
|NL<br />
|Y<br />
|?<br />
|N<br />
|?<br />
|20080617<br />
|8A8603161<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|T-Mobile<br />
|900<br />
|FSO 4.1<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
|Rakshat<br />
|India<br />
|N<br />
|N<br />
|N<br />
|?<br />
|20080618<br />
|8A8602471<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|Airtel<br />
|900<br />
|QTExtended4.2.2<br />
|No echo since flashing QTExtended<br />
|-<br />
|Vasco Nevoa<br />
|PT<br />
|Y<br />
|?<br />
|?<br />
|?<br />
|20080621<br />
|8A8602272<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|Optimus<br />
|900<br />
|OM2008 testing (20081211)<br />
|<br />
|-<br />
|Andreas Fischer<br />
|Germany<br />
|N<br />
|Y<br />
|N<br />
|?<br />
|20080725<br />
|8A8710691<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|O2 (Telefonica)<br />
|900<br />
|OM2008 testing (20081211)<br />
|Didn't test buzz with headset<br />
|}<br />
<br />
1 = Date code on phone (under battery)<br />
<br />
2 = 850 (USA,etc.) or 900 (Europe,etc.)</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_Hardware_IssuesNeo FreeRunner Hardware Issues2008-12-11T11:15:22Z<p>Mivaho: /* Poor Audio Quality */</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Neo FreeRunner Menu}}<br />
<br />
This is a community-written page that discusses '''hardware issues''' with the FreeRunner/[[GTA02]] device. Information here is unofficial (and possibly incorrect) unless otherwise stated. Corrections and clarifications from Openmoko employees would be greatly appreciated.<br />
<br />
Please '''DON'T PANIC''' when reading this page. Please give Openmoko employees time to investigate these issues and to develop a solution. Some of the items may turn out to be non-issues, or may have software workarounds. The FreeRunner's software is still under heavily development and can help fix most of this problems.<br />
<br />
=== Active Issues ===<br />
<br />
==== Poor Audio Quality ====<br />
<br />
Issue: The person on the other end of a GSM phone call may experience poor audio quality, to the point where he/she cannot carry on a normal conversation.<br />
<br />
There are three related aspects to this issue:<br />
* Call is too quiet (mixer settings for mic and/or earpiece are set too low)<br />
* Caller hears a loud echo of their own voice [http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1267 #1267]<br />
* Buzzing noise caused by GSM radio interference [http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/883 #883] [http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1352 #1352]<br />
* Audio output is very thin (lacks bass) unless compensated properly by the Bass / Bass Filter settings as explained in the "Known issues" section of this page.<br />
<br />
Affects: all devices but only some users (depending on many factors)<br />
<br />
Status: Under investigation. There is a possibility that the quality can be made "good enough" through software (mixer settings).<br />
<br />
To get a clear view why it affects only some users and not all, we need everyones [[Buzz or not]] input.<br />
<br />
The source of the GSM buzz has been [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/hardware/2008-August/000415.html identified].<br />
<br />
Some [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/hardware/2008-August/000451.html hidden Calypso commands] may help with the echo problem.<br />
<br />
Workarounds:<br />
<br />
# Using a bluetooth headset is a possibility.<br />
# Better mixer settings: One confirmed good settings are here: http://www.mail-archive.com/support@lists.openmoko.org/msg00564.html. Please change accordingly in /usr/share/openmoko/scenarios/gsmhandset.state. Should eliminate/lessen echo and buzz problems. [[Neo alsamixer]] is the main article for setting the mixer settings.<br />
<br />
===== Better set of mixer settings =====<br />
<br />
Regarding 2. in the previous paragraph, here are my further tweaked settings:<br />
<br />
[mic volume & buzz problem]<br />
* 'Mono Playback Volume' (95)<br />
* 'Mono Sidetone Playback Volume' (2)<br />
* 'Mic2 Capture Volume' (3)<br />
[speaker volume & echo problem]<br />
* 'Speaker Playback Volume' (112)<br />
* 'Bypass Playback Volume' (5)<br />
<br />
Lowering Mono Sidetone eliminated the buzz problem better. Please try out and report if you have good success... --[[User:TimoJyrinki|TimoJyrinki]] 08:19, 16 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Can't boot with discharged or missing battery ====<br />
<br />
Issue: Neo FreeRunner requires battery power to boot, because Neo FreeRunner consumes too much current while booting to boot with only a charger. Since charging isn't enabled until the Neo FreeRunner has booted, this means that a discharged battery can not be charged. One manifestation of this problem is a kernel panic (red LED flashes constantly) when trying to boot using the power button.<br />
<br />
Affects: Unknown.<br />
<br />
Status: By properly sequencing module power sequence, a software solution to this problem should exist.<br />
<br />
Fixed(?) with [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-July/003799.html Werner Almesberger patches] - [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/commitlog/2008-July/005403.html more here] [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-July/023392.html additional information]<br />
<br />
I think this patch finally fixes the problem:<br />
[http://www.abanet.ch/~hug/moko/uboot-battery/ Philipp Hugs patches]<br />
<br />
Workarounds:<br />
<br />
# Make sure that the battery never discharges completely<br />
# Use [[:Image:Nokia-charging-stand.jpg|external stand-alone charger]] (compatible with the Nokia BL-5C battery)<br />
# Boot the FreeRunner with an [[Neo_FreeRunner_Battery#Compatible_Replacement_Batteries|alternative battery]], or with a spare GTA01 or GTA02 battery, plug USB power, then switch to the empty battery.<br />
# Boot the FreeRunner with a 4.5VDC external power source (steady hand and great care involved), plug USB power, then insert the empty battery.<br />
# Some users have reported that Neo FreeRunner '''is''' able to boot on USB power alone using the NOR u-boot, thus: press AUX, plug USB power, select boot. Reports of success would be appreciated.<br />
## Does work with sequence described. If after pressing boot it just turns off again (happened a few times), then: press AUX, plug in USB power, cycle through the menu a few times to keep it from turning off without booting, after a minute or so press boot. [[User:Imrehg|Imrehg]] 08:34, 10 September 2008 (UTC)<br />
## This does indeed work with sequence described. After pressing boot, the screen went blank for a few seconds, but then the beast came to life again. That saved the day! [[User:Edictor|Edictor]]<br />
## Trifirmed. Neither USB connection nor wall charger was able to wake my phone. But in NOR u-boot it worked (connected to the computer). I think this trick hasn't failed to anyone. --[[User:Flamma|Flamma]] 12:11, 17 September 2008 (UTC)<br />
## Unfortunately this is not working for me. My FreeRunner has been off for a few weeks and completely dead. I tried various combinations of holding aux and plugging in to both wall and computer, no luck. Tried with and without the battery in place, no luck. Aux and power button / just power / aux then power. No luck... --[[User:Safire|Safire]] 6 November 2008<br />
## This is working ! It has prevent me from buying an external power charger. My freerunner had its battery discharged for about 2 weeks now, and I was able to boot and charge it. --[[User:JRD|JRD]] 23:37, 12 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
## It has worked for me ! I have booted to 2008.9 Om with discharged battery (after connecting the FR to power supply and waiting a few minutes until AUX button red light stopped flashing) using the NOR boot menu. Tried the same with NAND boot menu and worked also !!! Then I could charge the battery. -- [[User:Emsyr|Emsyr]] 3:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
## I can boot to 2008.9 without battery and with USB connection = plug USB power (FR <-> PC) + press power button. However I cannot shutdown correctly. --[[User:Cynan|Cynan]] 13:43, 9 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
## I can boot to 2008.9 without battery and with USB connection: press AUX button, then plug USB power, then press power button (keeping AUX pressed). NOTE that battery was fully charged. The problem wasn't battery but corrupted environment in NAND u-boot: with battery IN, no access to NOR u-boot<br />
See also:<br />
:[[Neo_FreeRunner_Battery|Neo FreeRunner Battery]]<br />
<br />
==== Battery discharges when charging completes ====<br />
<br />
Issue: If the Neo FreeRunner has been charging, when charging completes, it seems to drain the battery and not turn on charging again. This seems to be bug of PMU-registers setup, that shows up when PMU has to handle bat autonomously (=suspend). There might be issues our current scheme relies on wake-interrupt at bat-full which doesn't succeed, or something like that.<br />
<br />
Affects: Unknown.<br />
<br />
Status:<br />
<br />
Workarounds:<br />
<br />
# When the battery is full, disconnect the charger<br />
<br />
See also:<br />
<br />
==== Suspend/resume corrupts SD card's partition table ====<br />
<br />
Issue: Suspend/resume corrupts the partition table of the SD card<br />
<br />
Affects: Unknown.<br />
<br />
Status:<br />
<br />
[[https://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1802#comment:6 Patched kernel]] might solve the problem<br />
<br />
Workarounds:<br />
<br />
# [[https://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1802#comment:5 Script]] as a temporary workaround<br />
<br />
See also:<br />
<br />
:[[https://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1802 trac ticket]]<br />
<br />
==== Some SIMs Don't Work ====<br />
<br />
Issue: There are reports that some users cannot register with their GSM network when using certain SIM cards. See for example http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-July/020370.html<br />
<br />
It is possible that there is more than one issue involved here. The observed problems ''might'' (i.e. some items are only speculation at this point) be caused by:<br />
<br />
* User error, not inserting the SIM in the correct orientation or not sliding the holder to the 'locked' position<br />
<br />
* Software issues that result in a locked SIM (not properly prompting the user for a PIN and then passing this to the SIM)<br />
<br />
* Mechanical issues with the SIM holder that prevent the pins from making reliable contact with the pads on the SIM. Note that only 6 of the 8 pins are used, and the remaining two are not connected.<br />
<br />
* Electrical incompatibility (some tests show problems with 1.8V SIMs while 2.9V ones work OK)<br />
<br />
* Firmware bugs in the TI Calypso GSM chipset. Note that one issue in this category was found and fixed on the GTA01 devices (#666 in Trac), and that specific problem should not affect the FreeRunner.<br />
<br />
* Defective SIMs, i.e. ones that do not comply with the applicable standards and are acknowledged as being defective by the carrier (even if they happen to work in some phones).<br />
<br />
* You may have true 3G operating at 2100 and your sim doesn't fallback to GSM. The Phone works on 850/1800/1900 or 900/1800/1900.<br />
<br />
See also:<br />
* http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Carriers/ATT<br />
* http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Carriers/Rogers<br />
<br />
Affects: Only a subset of users (details unknown).<br />
<br />
Status: Fixed in GSM firmware moko10-beta2 or later. See [[GSM/Flashing]] for instructions. Please add your information to [[FreeRunner_unable_to_work_with_3G_SIM_cards]] or [[GSM network registration]]<br />
<br />
Workarounds:<br />
<br />
# Please document your existing SIM card and provider in the table [[FreeRunner_unable_to_work_with_3G_SIM_cards|here]].<br />
# If the table mentioned above shows any SIM cards known to work with your provider, make note of these numbers.<br />
# Contact your network provider and request a new SIM card. You may wish to print out the table mentioned above and bring it with you to the store.<br />
# Add your experience with the new SIM card to the table mentioned above.<br />
<br />
=== Known/Accepted Issues ===<br />
<br />
This section lists items that are acknowledged as being less than ideal, but are considered to be acceptable in the shipping product. They will not be discussed in detail on this page.<br />
<br />
* Poor performance + slow bus speed of the Glamo GPU - discussed to death on the mailing lists and IRC.<br />
** stable-2.6.26 branch of kernel has wait states lowered, core speed increased from 50MHz to 80MHz and memory speed from 80MHz to 90MHz (the latter is also in stable branch) - these lessen the problem a bit, though it's slow still<br />
* [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/hardware/2008-April/000055.html GPS antenna switch] driven out-of-spec - does not appear to have a significant effect on device performance<br />
* Poor low-frequency audio response with low-impedance headphones, e.g. as discussed in this thread: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-March/001999.html (NOTE - this thread refers to pre-mass-production devices)<br />
** Can be fixed to an semi-acceptable level (if not high fidelity most probably) by adjusting "Bass Volume" to full (15) and "Bass Filter" to "100Hz @ 8kHz" (bass will be boosted <= 600Hz when playing back at 48kHz) or "200Hz @ 8kHz" (<= 1200Hz @ 48kHz). The default is 130Hz @ 48kHz and does not help much with the more wider scope of low frequencies.<br />
** Ideally someone would record output and find out which setting produces best output, ie. compensating for the loss of low frequencies without boosting too high frequencies with this "bass" boost.<br />
<br />
=== Resolved Issues ===<br />
<br />
These are issues that have been discussed in the past, but have been fixed (or turned out not to be a problem) for the mass-produced devices.<br />
<br />
* Excessive LED current - Some early units lacked a current-limiting resistor for the LEDs. This has been fixed for the production units.<br />
* Battery life - At this time it appears that the FreeRunner battery life will be acceptable once suspend/resume support has been implemented in software.<br />
* slow GPS TTFF - see [[GPS Problems]]<br />
==== Empty NOR Flash ====<br />
<br />
Issue: NOR flash (backup copy of u-boot) is not programmed. [http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1568 #1568]<br />
<br />
Affects: Unknown - maybe only 1 or 2 devices? Also need to confirm that the bug report was from a mass-production unit rather than an earlier prototype.<br />
<br />
Status: Solved. The new devices are tested better if they have the NOR flashed programmed and aren't shipped if the test fail.<br />
<br />
Workarounds: Use the NAND copy of u-boot and be careful not to brick the device unless a debug-board is available.<br />
<br />
<br />
==== Debug board has wrong vendor/product ID ====<br />
<br />
Issue: A debug board is not reporting the expected USB Vendor/Product ID.<br />
<br />
Affects: Only [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/device-owners/2008-July/001775.html one report] has been seen so far.<br />
<br />
Status: Probably a single case scenario.<br />
<br />
Workarounds: Edit configuration files (e.g. openocd.conf) to use the IDs that the board is reporting.<br />
<br />
== List of "Current issues" Imported from the "Community update page" ==<br />
(to be sorted)<br />
<br />
The information below has been collected from various sources, feel free to add questions and comments here.<br />
<br />
===GPS Performance of the FreeRunner===<br />
The poor GPS performance on the FreeRunner has been traced to an<br />
interaction between the microSD card and the GPS unit. A software<br />
and a hardware fixes are available, see [[GPS Problems]].<br />
<br />
===GTA02 battery status===<br />
While writing a device driver for the new battery which provides an accurate counter of the charge state of the [[GTA02]], the driver developer discovered that the device driver does not get a reading of the charge state due to a very long response time with only one I/O signal when trying to read the charge state. To be able to read the battery status properly, it has been written that it will be necessary to re-design that part of the GTA02 for hardware version GTA02A5 to use two I/O signals to reduce the response time (one for transmitting commands, one for receiving data?). This was fixed two months ago (see [http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=957#c1 Bug 957]).<br />
<br />
===Delivery of a GSM firmware update for the 3G SIM bug ([http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=666 #666])===<br />
<br />
A bug in the GSM firwmare of Neo 1973 caused some 3G SIM cards to not work with Neo 1973. This Neo 1973 GSM firmware update can only be installed by an Openmoko employee due to licensing issues.<br />
<br />
This fix is already present in the Neo FreeRunner firwmare, and thus the Neo 1973 GSM firmware update is not required for the Neo FreeRunner. In fact since the firmware differs between the Neo 1973 and the Neo FreeRunner, it would very likely make the GSM module unusable.<br />
<br />
There seem to be other GSM issues on the Neo FreeRunner. See [[#Some_SIMs_Don.27t_Work|Some SIMs Don't Work]] above.<br />
<br />
=== SMedia 3362 Documentation & OpenGL ES Drivers ===<br />
There is an open source kdrive driver being written for the GTA02 which will use hardware to accelerate the XRender extension. While the chip is capable of 3D graphics, no OpenGL ES driver/library is avaliable and Openmoko developers will not be writing one in the near future (although they have not ruled it out in the long-term).<br />
<br />
Documentation for the SMedia 3362 has been promised ([http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-September/010175.html see this post]). However, this refers to documentation Openmoko developers will be writing themselves, not the technical documentation SMedia have provided Openmoko with. The Openmoko developers had to sign an NDA with SMedia to obtain this documentation and are therefore unable to pass this information on to community developers. (See [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-November/011349.html this post] for details)<br />
<br />
=== Power Management on the Neo1973/FreeRunner===<br />
The current battery life of the Neo1973 and FreeRunner is not satisfactory. A lot of changes seem to be necessary to the kernel, drivers and related user-space applications. Hopefully the situation will improve over time.<br />
<br />
[[Category:Neo FreeRunner Hardware]]</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Buzz_or_notBuzz or not2008-12-11T11:14:51Z<p>Mivaho: Here moved to Buzz or not: Title was 'here'</p>
<hr />
<div>== Who suffers from the buzz and who doesn't? ==<br />
<br />
We need your input to identify why only some people suffer from the infamous buzz problem ([http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/883 #883] [http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1352 #1352]).<br />
<br />
Put your information in the form below.<br />
<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="20" cellspacing="0"<br />
!Name<br />
!Country<br />
!Buzz Y/N<br />
!Date code (1)<br />
!s/n<br />
!p/n<br />
!Carrier<br />
!Mhz (2)<br />
!Distro<br />
|-<br />
|mivaho<br />
|NL<br />
|Y<br />
|20080617<br />
|8A8603161<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|T-Mobile<br />
|900<br />
|FSO 4.1<br />
|}<br />
<br />
1 = Date code on phone (under battery)<br />
<br />
2 = 850 or 900</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Buzz_or_notBuzz or not2008-12-11T11:12:46Z<p>Mivaho: New page: == Who suffers from the buzz and who doesn't? == We need your input to identify why only some people suffer from the infamous buzz problem ([http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/883 #883]...</p>
<hr />
<div>== Who suffers from the buzz and who doesn't? ==<br />
<br />
We need your input to identify why only some people suffer from the infamous buzz problem ([http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/883 #883] [http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1352 #1352]).<br />
<br />
Put your information in the form below.<br />
<br />
{| border="1" cellpadding="20" cellspacing="0"<br />
!Name<br />
!Country<br />
!Buzz Y/N<br />
!Date code (1)<br />
!s/n<br />
!p/n<br />
!Carrier<br />
!Mhz (2)<br />
!Distro<br />
|-<br />
|mivaho<br />
|NL<br />
|Y<br />
|20080617<br />
|8A8603161<br />
|56-21147-00<br />
|T-Mobile<br />
|900<br />
|FSO 4.1<br />
|}<br />
<br />
1 = Date code on phone (under battery)<br />
<br />
2 = 850 or 900</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_Hardware_IssuesNeo FreeRunner Hardware Issues2008-12-11T10:50:38Z<p>Mivaho: /* Poor Audio Quality */</p>
<hr />
<div>{{Neo FreeRunner Menu}}<br />
<br />
This is a community-written page that discusses '''hardware issues''' with the FreeRunner/[[GTA02]] device. Information here is unofficial (and possibly incorrect) unless otherwise stated. Corrections and clarifications from Openmoko employees would be greatly appreciated.<br />
<br />
Please '''DON'T PANIC''' when reading this page. Please give Openmoko employees time to investigate these issues and to develop a solution. Some of the items may turn out to be non-issues, or may have software workarounds. The FreeRunner's software is still under heavily development and can help fix most of this problems.<br />
<br />
=== Active Issues ===<br />
<br />
==== Poor Audio Quality ====<br />
<br />
Issue: The person on the other end of a GSM phone call may experience poor audio quality, to the point where he/she cannot carry on a normal conversation.<br />
<br />
There are three related aspects to this issue:<br />
* Call is too quiet (mixer settings for mic and/or earpiece are set too low)<br />
* Caller hears a loud echo of their own voice [http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1267 #1267]<br />
* Buzzing noise caused by GSM radio interference [http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/883 #883] [http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1352 #1352]<br />
* Audio output is very thin (lacks bass) unless compensated properly by the Bass / Bass Filter settings as explained in the "Known issues" section of this page.<br />
<br />
Affects: all devices but only some users (depending on many factors)<br />
<br />
Status: Under investigation. There is a possibility that the quality can be made "good enough" through software (mixer settings).<br />
<br />
To get a clear view why it affects only some users and not all, we need everyones input [[here]]. <br />
<br />
The source of the GSM buzz has been [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/hardware/2008-August/000415.html identified].<br />
<br />
Some [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/hardware/2008-August/000451.html hidden Calypso commands] may help with the echo problem.<br />
<br />
Workarounds:<br />
<br />
# Using a bluetooth headset is a possibility.<br />
# Better mixer settings: One confirmed good settings are here: http://www.mail-archive.com/support@lists.openmoko.org/msg00564.html. Please change accordingly in /usr/share/openmoko/scenarios/gsmhandset.state. Should eliminate/lessen echo and buzz problems. [[Neo alsamixer]] is the main article for setting the mixer settings.<br />
<br />
===== Better set of mixer settings =====<br />
<br />
Regarding 2. in the previous paragraph, here are my further tweaked settings:<br />
<br />
[mic volume & buzz problem]<br />
* 'Mono Playback Volume' (95)<br />
* 'Mono Sidetone Playback Volume' (2)<br />
* 'Mic2 Capture Volume' (3)<br />
[speaker volume & echo problem]<br />
* 'Speaker Playback Volume' (112)<br />
* 'Bypass Playback Volume' (5)<br />
<br />
Lowering Mono Sidetone eliminated the buzz problem better. Please try out and report if you have good success... --[[User:TimoJyrinki|TimoJyrinki]] 08:19, 16 October 2008 (UTC)<br />
<br />
==== Can't boot with discharged or missing battery ====<br />
<br />
Issue: Neo FreeRunner requires battery power to boot, because Neo FreeRunner consumes too much current while booting to boot with only a charger. Since charging isn't enabled until the Neo FreeRunner has booted, this means that a discharged battery can not be charged. One manifestation of this problem is a kernel panic (red LED flashes constantly) when trying to boot using the power button.<br />
<br />
Affects: Unknown.<br />
<br />
Status: By properly sequencing module power sequence, a software solution to this problem should exist.<br />
<br />
Fixed(?) with [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-July/003799.html Werner Almesberger patches] - [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/commitlog/2008-July/005403.html more here] [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-July/023392.html additional information]<br />
<br />
I think this patch finally fixes the problem:<br />
[http://www.abanet.ch/~hug/moko/uboot-battery/ Philipp Hugs patches]<br />
<br />
Workarounds:<br />
<br />
# Make sure that the battery never discharges completely<br />
# Use [[:Image:Nokia-charging-stand.jpg|external stand-alone charger]] (compatible with the Nokia BL-5C battery)<br />
# Boot the FreeRunner with an [[Neo_FreeRunner_Battery#Compatible_Replacement_Batteries|alternative battery]], or with a spare GTA01 or GTA02 battery, plug USB power, then switch to the empty battery.<br />
# Boot the FreeRunner with a 4.5VDC external power source (steady hand and great care involved), plug USB power, then insert the empty battery.<br />
# Some users have reported that Neo FreeRunner '''is''' able to boot on USB power alone using the NOR u-boot, thus: press AUX, plug USB power, select boot. Reports of success would be appreciated.<br />
## Does work with sequence described. If after pressing boot it just turns off again (happened a few times), then: press AUX, plug in USB power, cycle through the menu a few times to keep it from turning off without booting, after a minute or so press boot. [[User:Imrehg|Imrehg]] 08:34, 10 September 2008 (UTC)<br />
## This does indeed work with sequence described. After pressing boot, the screen went blank for a few seconds, but then the beast came to life again. That saved the day! [[User:Edictor|Edictor]]<br />
## Trifirmed. Neither USB connection nor wall charger was able to wake my phone. But in NOR u-boot it worked (connected to the computer). I think this trick hasn't failed to anyone. --[[User:Flamma|Flamma]] 12:11, 17 September 2008 (UTC)<br />
## Unfortunately this is not working for me. My FreeRunner has been off for a few weeks and completely dead. I tried various combinations of holding aux and plugging in to both wall and computer, no luck. Tried with and without the battery in place, no luck. Aux and power button / just power / aux then power. No luck... --[[User:Safire|Safire]] 6 November 2008<br />
## This is working ! It has prevent me from buying an external power charger. My freerunner had its battery discharged for about 2 weeks now, and I was able to boot and charge it. --[[User:JRD|JRD]] 23:37, 12 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
## It has worked for me ! I have booted to 2008.9 Om with discharged battery (after connecting the FR to power supply and waiting a few minutes until AUX button red light stopped flashing) using the NOR boot menu. Tried the same with NAND boot menu and worked also !!! Then I could charge the battery. -- [[User:Emsyr|Emsyr]] 3:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)<br />
## I can boot to 2008.9 without battery and with USB connection = plug USB power (FR <-> PC) + press power button. However I cannot shutdown correctly. --[[User:Cynan|Cynan]] 13:43, 9 December 2008 (UTC)<br />
## I can boot to 2008.9 without battery and with USB connection: press AUX button, then plug USB power, then press power button (keeping AUX pressed). NOTE that battery was fully charged. The problem wasn't battery but corrupted environment in NAND u-boot: with battery IN, no access to NOR u-boot<br />
See also:<br />
:[[Neo_FreeRunner_Battery|Neo FreeRunner Battery]]<br />
<br />
==== Battery discharges when charging completes ====<br />
<br />
Issue: If the Neo FreeRunner has been charging, when charging completes, it seems to drain the battery and not turn on charging again. This seems to be bug of PMU-registers setup, that shows up when PMU has to handle bat autonomously (=suspend). There might be issues our current scheme relies on wake-interrupt at bat-full which doesn't succeed, or something like that.<br />
<br />
Affects: Unknown.<br />
<br />
Status:<br />
<br />
Workarounds:<br />
<br />
# When the battery is full, disconnect the charger<br />
<br />
See also:<br />
<br />
==== Suspend/resume corrupts SD card's partition table ====<br />
<br />
Issue: Suspend/resume corrupts the partition table of the SD card<br />
<br />
Affects: Unknown.<br />
<br />
Status:<br />
<br />
[[https://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1802#comment:6 Patched kernel]] might solve the problem<br />
<br />
Workarounds:<br />
<br />
# [[https://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1802#comment:5 Script]] as a temporary workaround<br />
<br />
See also:<br />
<br />
:[[https://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1802 trac ticket]]<br />
<br />
==== Some SIMs Don't Work ====<br />
<br />
Issue: There are reports that some users cannot register with their GSM network when using certain SIM cards. See for example http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-July/020370.html<br />
<br />
It is possible that there is more than one issue involved here. The observed problems ''might'' (i.e. some items are only speculation at this point) be caused by:<br />
<br />
* User error, not inserting the SIM in the correct orientation or not sliding the holder to the 'locked' position<br />
<br />
* Software issues that result in a locked SIM (not properly prompting the user for a PIN and then passing this to the SIM)<br />
<br />
* Mechanical issues with the SIM holder that prevent the pins from making reliable contact with the pads on the SIM. Note that only 6 of the 8 pins are used, and the remaining two are not connected.<br />
<br />
* Electrical incompatibility (some tests show problems with 1.8V SIMs while 2.9V ones work OK)<br />
<br />
* Firmware bugs in the TI Calypso GSM chipset. Note that one issue in this category was found and fixed on the GTA01 devices (#666 in Trac), and that specific problem should not affect the FreeRunner.<br />
<br />
* Defective SIMs, i.e. ones that do not comply with the applicable standards and are acknowledged as being defective by the carrier (even if they happen to work in some phones).<br />
<br />
* You may have true 3G operating at 2100 and your sim doesn't fallback to GSM. The Phone works on 850/1800/1900 or 900/1800/1900.<br />
<br />
See also:<br />
* http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Carriers/ATT<br />
* http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Carriers/Rogers<br />
<br />
Affects: Only a subset of users (details unknown).<br />
<br />
Status: Fixed in GSM firmware moko10-beta2 or later. See [[GSM/Flashing]] for instructions. Please add your information to [[FreeRunner_unable_to_work_with_3G_SIM_cards]] or [[GSM network registration]]<br />
<br />
Workarounds:<br />
<br />
# Please document your existing SIM card and provider in the table [[FreeRunner_unable_to_work_with_3G_SIM_cards|here]].<br />
# If the table mentioned above shows any SIM cards known to work with your provider, make note of these numbers.<br />
# Contact your network provider and request a new SIM card. You may wish to print out the table mentioned above and bring it with you to the store.<br />
# Add your experience with the new SIM card to the table mentioned above.<br />
<br />
=== Known/Accepted Issues ===<br />
<br />
This section lists items that are acknowledged as being less than ideal, but are considered to be acceptable in the shipping product. They will not be discussed in detail on this page.<br />
<br />
* Poor performance + slow bus speed of the Glamo GPU - discussed to death on the mailing lists and IRC.<br />
** stable-2.6.26 branch of kernel has wait states lowered, core speed increased from 50MHz to 80MHz and memory speed from 80MHz to 90MHz (the latter is also in stable branch) - these lessen the problem a bit, though it's slow still<br />
* [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/hardware/2008-April/000055.html GPS antenna switch] driven out-of-spec - does not appear to have a significant effect on device performance<br />
* Poor low-frequency audio response with low-impedance headphones, e.g. as discussed in this thread: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-March/001999.html (NOTE - this thread refers to pre-mass-production devices)<br />
** Can be fixed to an semi-acceptable level (if not high fidelity most probably) by adjusting "Bass Volume" to full (15) and "Bass Filter" to "100Hz @ 8kHz" (bass will be boosted <= 600Hz when playing back at 48kHz) or "200Hz @ 8kHz" (<= 1200Hz @ 48kHz). The default is 130Hz @ 48kHz and does not help much with the more wider scope of low frequencies.<br />
** Ideally someone would record output and find out which setting produces best output, ie. compensating for the loss of low frequencies without boosting too high frequencies with this "bass" boost.<br />
<br />
=== Resolved Issues ===<br />
<br />
These are issues that have been discussed in the past, but have been fixed (or turned out not to be a problem) for the mass-produced devices.<br />
<br />
* Excessive LED current - Some early units lacked a current-limiting resistor for the LEDs. This has been fixed for the production units.<br />
* Battery life - At this time it appears that the FreeRunner battery life will be acceptable once suspend/resume support has been implemented in software.<br />
* slow GPS TTFF - see [[GPS Problems]]<br />
==== Empty NOR Flash ====<br />
<br />
Issue: NOR flash (backup copy of u-boot) is not programmed. [http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1568 #1568]<br />
<br />
Affects: Unknown - maybe only 1 or 2 devices? Also need to confirm that the bug report was from a mass-production unit rather than an earlier prototype.<br />
<br />
Status: Solved. The new devices are tested better if they have the NOR flashed programmed and aren't shipped if the test fail.<br />
<br />
Workarounds: Use the NAND copy of u-boot and be careful not to brick the device unless a debug-board is available.<br />
<br />
<br />
==== Debug board has wrong vendor/product ID ====<br />
<br />
Issue: A debug board is not reporting the expected USB Vendor/Product ID.<br />
<br />
Affects: Only [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/device-owners/2008-July/001775.html one report] has been seen so far.<br />
<br />
Status: Probably a single case scenario.<br />
<br />
Workarounds: Edit configuration files (e.g. openocd.conf) to use the IDs that the board is reporting.<br />
<br />
== List of "Current issues" Imported from the "Community update page" ==<br />
(to be sorted)<br />
<br />
The information below has been collected from various sources, feel free to add questions and comments here.<br />
<br />
===GPS Performance of the FreeRunner===<br />
The poor GPS performance on the FreeRunner has been traced to an<br />
interaction between the microSD card and the GPS unit. A software<br />
and a hardware fixes are available, see [[GPS Problems]].<br />
<br />
===GTA02 battery status===<br />
While writing a device driver for the new battery which provides an accurate counter of the charge state of the [[GTA02]], the driver developer discovered that the device driver does not get a reading of the charge state due to a very long response time with only one I/O signal when trying to read the charge state. To be able to read the battery status properly, it has been written that it will be necessary to re-design that part of the GTA02 for hardware version GTA02A5 to use two I/O signals to reduce the response time (one for transmitting commands, one for receiving data?). This was fixed two months ago (see [http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=957#c1 Bug 957]).<br />
<br />
===Delivery of a GSM firmware update for the 3G SIM bug ([http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=666 #666])===<br />
<br />
A bug in the GSM firwmare of Neo 1973 caused some 3G SIM cards to not work with Neo 1973. This Neo 1973 GSM firmware update can only be installed by an Openmoko employee due to licensing issues.<br />
<br />
This fix is already present in the Neo FreeRunner firwmare, and thus the Neo 1973 GSM firmware update is not required for the Neo FreeRunner. In fact since the firmware differs between the Neo 1973 and the Neo FreeRunner, it would very likely make the GSM module unusable.<br />
<br />
There seem to be other GSM issues on the Neo FreeRunner. See [[#Some_SIMs_Don.27t_Work|Some SIMs Don't Work]] above.<br />
<br />
=== SMedia 3362 Documentation & OpenGL ES Drivers ===<br />
There is an open source kdrive driver being written for the GTA02 which will use hardware to accelerate the XRender extension. While the chip is capable of 3D graphics, no OpenGL ES driver/library is avaliable and Openmoko developers will not be writing one in the near future (although they have not ruled it out in the long-term).<br />
<br />
Documentation for the SMedia 3362 has been promised ([http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-September/010175.html see this post]). However, this refers to documentation Openmoko developers will be writing themselves, not the technical documentation SMedia have provided Openmoko with. The Openmoko developers had to sign an NDA with SMedia to obtain this documentation and are therefore unable to pass this information on to community developers. (See [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-November/011349.html this post] for details)<br />
<br />
=== Power Management on the Neo1973/FreeRunner===<br />
The current battery life of the Neo1973 and FreeRunner is not satisfactory. A lot of changes seem to be necessary to the kernel, drivers and related user-space applications. Hopefully the situation will improve over time.<br />
<br />
[[Category:Neo FreeRunner Hardware]]</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Group_salesTalk:Group sales2008-06-28T17:52:34Z<p>Mivaho: /* The Netherlands */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
== England ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}<br />
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?<br />
<br />
:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.<br />
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
::Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====<br />
<br />
I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?<br />
<br />
I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?<br />
<br />
In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(<br />
<br />
:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] - [mailto:stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk let me know] if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
<br />
Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)<br />
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.<br />
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but<br />
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}<br />
<br />
<br />
Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php<br />
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen<br />
<br />
Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van <br />
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd <br />
zou willen zien worden.<br />
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie <br />
over het te leveren artikel.<br />
<br />
Uw naam J. de Haan<br />
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
Artikelinformatie<br />
Merk openmoko<br />
Naam freerunner<br />
Website openmoko.com<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen <br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor <br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail <br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
E-mailcontact - verzonden<br />
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.<br />
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)<br />
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not<br />
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out <br />
on Utrecht CS :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)<br />
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? <br /><br />
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1." <br />
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.<br />
<br />
{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will have 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Belgium Belgium]. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.<br />
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:<br />
<br />
Geachte heer,<br />
<br />
Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
<br />
Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx<br />
Product Management / Technical Support<br />
<br />
Salland Automatisering<br />
<br />
Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post. <br /><br />
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.<br />
from Jan de Haan <haan.j.de@gmail.com><br />
to inkoop@azerty.nl,<br />
date Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM<br />
subject Openmoko - Freerunner<br />
mailed-by gmail.com<br />
<br />
hide details 8:52 PM (0 minutes ago)<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen<br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor<br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
Een importeur schijnt trisoft.de te zijn. Let wel: dit product is<br />
nog niet op de markt,<br />
al zijn de laatste test productie runs klaar.<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail<br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken. <br /><br />
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):<br />
<br />
=== Votes for a reseller ===<br />
{|border=1<br />
!Name<br />
!Trisoft<br />
!Open Source Nieuws Nederland<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (Subject to a solution for warranty)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[Special:Emailuser/User:PWerken|Peter van de Werken]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (note: I'll buy 2 Freerunners)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (If warranty is OK)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|'''Total'''<br />
|<br />
|10<br />
|}<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:<br />
Beste Yorick,<br />
<br />
Bedankt voor je mail en informatie; ik kende de toestellen niet, maar zou ze<br />
best eens van dichtbij willen bekijken. Het 'developer' model lijkt me dan<br />
echter weer minder interessant voor ons; het 'consumer' model zou eind 2008<br />
op de markt moeten komen?<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
With kind regards,<br />
<br />
Michael Brus<br />
Manager PDAshop<br />
<br />
<br />
Coolblue<br />
Molenbaan 11 . 2908 LL Capelle a/d IJssel . www.coolblue.nl<br />
<br />
Coolblue is...<br />
MP3shop.nl . PDAshop.nl . Digicamshop.nl . GPSshop.nl .<br />
Smartphoneshop.nl . Consoleshop.nl . Telefoonshop.nl . meer...<br />
<br />
Should I forward this to Michael Shiloh?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 07/05} I'll vote to wait until there are actually phones shipping, until that time, the more people we gather here, and maybe other dealers, the better the deal we get(I hope).<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 08/05} <br />
Well, I want to have the phone as soon as possible. The best deal ever isn't my main concern.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 13/05}<br />
I've been browsing the mailing list, and found [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/016971.html this post] from Openmoko's Steve. Group sales have 28 days of DOA (Dead On Arrival) coverage, and single sales have 14 days of DOA coverage. Which I think is reasonable. BTW, I don't think there will be a better deal than the $369 per phone for the 10-pack. <br /><br />
We currently have enough people to fill 2 10-packs, which is awesome! <br /><br />
What we do need to figure out are the import costs, and the shipping costs. (it's shipped via UPS, if I recall correctly from the mailing list.)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 22/05}<br />
<br />
I wouldn't be too sure that this is financially going to be the best deal. This message in the community mailing list (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017668.html) shows interesting info regarding Pulster.<br />
----<br />
''Christph Pulster wrote:<br />
''> about 10 pack orders - we try to be cheaper than the 10-order-<br />
''> pack-price ! so no need to collect ten local buyers.<br />
<br />
''This sounds so good...! I'm waiting for official news (and maybe infos<br />
about the gifts too)...''<br />
----<br />
'''I checked their webpage and they advertise with OpenMoko Freerunner 299 eur'''<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 22/05} I checked their website too and it says 'Sobald der Freerunner wirklich lieferbar ist, ist er an dieser Stelle mit konkretem Preis zu finden und real bestellbar.' Which could mean that the price will be something other than 299 euro.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I like the pulster deal a lot, even if they are the same price as buying the 10 pack in the US the warranty part is a lot better seeing Germany is next door to us. Only thing is that you would mis out on the pouch and headset, dunno if that's such a great loss. And they say they will be going under the price of the US 10 pack order if you order the 10 from them. So maybe a vote on yes or no to the pouch/headset deal? Maybe we should check if with Pulster a group order of 10+ will always give the discount. Like 22 will get the same discount and that we are not forced in getting groups of ten people.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I wrote an e-mail to pulster with the questions so I will post the answer here when I get one.<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 24/05} <br />
The pouch and headset are not that important IMO. I guess most join the group sale for convenience and reduce cost. But maybe I'm wrong.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
<br />
'''From the community mailing list again:<br />
<br />
'''Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote [to Pulster - Ed.]:<br />
''>> 1. Do you know when you'll be approximately able to define a price?<br />
''>> 2. The Freerunner will be shipped with extra goodies (generally<br />
''>> given only to people buying a 10-pack (ie: pouch and headset)?<br />
''> <br />
<br />
'''From Pulster [Ed.]<br />
<br />
''> Price fix ASAP I have the units in own hands/stocks.<br />
''> 299-319 eur is really realistic.<br />
''> <br />
''> All goodies included at PULSTER !<br />
''> <br />
''> Also can be bought a lot accessories extra very soon (debug board, pens, <br />
''> cases etc)<br />
''> <br />
''> you see, I will make all your wishes true :)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/05} Yeah, read that message in the weekend, no reply to my mail at this moment but seeing this message straight from pulster I would say that we should buy directly from pulster as a group. Warranty wise it's better as well.<br />
<br />
399 U.S. dollars is about 253 Euros and including VAT that would become 301.07 Euro so pulster with their price being 299 Euro (see below) has a good price and for 10 and more there is a discount just like in the US. I would propose to take the dutch group sale to Pulster.<br />
<br />
The following mail from Chis Pulster was on the list also.<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
I am Chris from pulster.eu - my hello to this great community.<br />
<br />
May I add some points from my side:<br />
<br />
- Freerunner - ready to order ASAP it is available. We do not<br />
take pre-orders of items we dont have in hands. For a one-time info- <br />
mail once the Freerunner is ready to order, please just email me <br />
mailto: christoph@pulster.de<br />
- we aim a Freerunner price tag of 299 EUR incl. VAT<br />
- shipping worldwide with DHL, Europa 15 EUR, World 30 EUR postage<br />
- soon we offer accessories for Freerunner like spare batterie, charger, <br />
Headset, pouch and also the debug-board<br />
- group-sales make local communities, that is wonderful. I am happy to <br />
sell Freerunner separately or in packages.<br />
<br />
Many thanks,<br />
Chris<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
Indeed let's take the dutch group sale to Pulster. We are with 22 so we should be able to make a good deal regarding the goodies. And in that way no-one has to take any financial risk.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 28/05} My guess is, that for a group buy at pulster there is still one entity needed for buying the devices. The thing is that with pulster, as with the US deal, the waranty should be per person and not named for the buying entity.<br />
<br />
:I don't think that we need to do the 'group buy' at Pulster. You can just buy the device at 299 a piece there. I would like to have the pouch though, if they can assure me that the pouch and other goodies would be included in the deal (because they of course could make a number of 'groupbuys' for the entire customer base), then count me in.--[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
:: Your absolutly right on this one, been thinking about it and the possible discount we would be getting would wasted on shipping within the Netherlands again. Like you said, if there are goodies involved it's a different deal of course :) . --[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
:::So let's start negotiating with Pulster regarding the goodies. We can bring in 22 customers, so he has something to win. It might be important to know whether Pulster takes credit card payments. I cannot find that option on their webpage and an electronic banktransfer will add another 15 (?) euro.[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
<br />
:::: Bank payments to germany are free of charge, at least for my bank (Rabobank).{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]]}<br />
<br />
:::: I'm afraid they don't accept credit cards (from their [http://www.pulster.de/engl/imprint.htm About Us page]:<br />
<br />
We do not accept any other payment option like PayPal, Reembourse/Cash-on-delivery (COD) payments, <br />
direct CreditCard payments, any kind of cheques, western union, postal money orders, cash. Please dont <br />
ask, we do not accept none of this options thanks to a very few but very expensive scams. <br />
<br />
:::: Nice double negative in there, btw. But still, 299+15 is less than 350 or 400. ;) --[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
::::: If it is going to be a group sale (if pulster provides the goodies) it would be (discounted price * 22 + transfer rate + (21 * shipping within Holland)) [[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
:::::: Are you assuming that we'd get a discounted price when we order in bulk? I have not seen any evidence that Pulster will lower the price even more, when done like that. But indeed, we'd have 22 * whatever-price-the-freerunner-will-get-at-Pulster + shipping costs... but then we are back at the discussion of how to deal with the warranty. Will Pulster give separate invoices for each of the phones in the pack? --[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 02/06} Okay I got an answer from Chris Pulster. I had 2 main questions that he answered and they were 1. Will the pouch and other goodies be included with a group sale as would be if we were to buy in the states. 2. Is a group sale, like in the states, limited to groups of ten or will the discount be for all phones bought in bulk. This is what he had to say:<br />
<br />
about your question: at the moment we dont know about pouch/headsets <br />
included or not. I will tell you a more reliable answer if Freerunners <br />
are in stocks.<br />
my discount system and sales are full flexibel (no ten-pack limitations)<br />
let us talk and we find a nice offer for the dutch OpenMoko community !<br />
<br />
<br />
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,<br />
Christoph Pulster<br />
<br />
We will have to take a look at what the discount will be and if it is worth it considering we will have extra shipping cost in holland.<br />
<br />
If the shipping costs will be too high, i would be willing to pick the phones up myself, if my expenses are covered. We have to figure out further distribution though. {[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 03/06}<br />
<br />
{[[User:Atilla|Atilla Filiz]] 19/06} Don't we have a chance for direct shipping from Taiwan? The phones are produced there anyway.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 20/06} We could but the problem would be that we would be buying it for consumer prices where Pulster buys a whole lot, and being a reseller pays a reseller price, or better yet a distributors price. So my bet is that we would be better of getting it from pulster than from Taiwan because that would not be much cheaper then getting it from the States.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Atilla|Atilla Filiz]] 22/06} Any news from Pulster or any other possible importer yet?<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/06} I got some news from Christoph just now but am waiting for permission to post it here, nothing earth chattering but just want his permission seeing it is a private e-mail. I'll keep you posted.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/06}<br />
<br />
Okay this is the e-mail Christopher from pulster.de wrote to me this afternoon:<br />
<br />
- our price of 299 EUR for Openmoko Freerunner is already rock-bottom, so we can not make further discounts, my apologises. What we can offer is free shipping <br />
worldwide if you order 10 units or more at once.<br />
<br />
- delivery time: same day money cleares we ship with registered and insured DHL airmail parcel. Transit time inside Europe is c.3 days, outside Europe 5 days.<br />
<br />
- customs: inside EU community there is no hassle with customs and no taxes/VAT will be added. Its all included our price of 299 eur. <br />
Outside EU community (Switzerland, Norway, USA, Asia) we will reduce German VAT giving a buying price of 249 EUR excl. VAT. Please note your local VAT will be added.<br />
<br />
- warranty: we give full 2 years warranty period. Please note, this is legal law for European business and compare it with own imports from Asia/USA.<br />
For warranty issues we are happy to include a separate invoice for each person of the GroupSale.<br />
<br />
- accessories included: its identical to the single unit order. Any other accessories (Cases/Headset etc.) can be ordered in our shop www.pulster.eu - we already have stocks.<br />
<br />
My first reaction was that seeing this it would be better to order as an individual because the only benefit of the free shipping would be lost because we would have to re-distribute it in Holland so that would add some shipping costs again. That's what I wrote to Chris and he replied that another benefit of a group order is that a group order has precedence before a shop sale. So My guess is ( and I hope to get that confirmed by Chris ASAP ) that if we as a group order at pulster.de before the shop opens, those phones will be reserved for us. When you order as an individual there is a chance you will miss out on the first batch and would have to wait until Chris gets another batch of phones.<br />
<br />
So my advice would be, if we want to get our hands on a Openmoko FreeRunner as one of the first in Holland we would need to buy as a group. Again, we, Open Source Nieuws Nederland, are willing to be the mediator. The price would be the Euro 299 plus shipping costs within Holland and the money needs to be in our bank account before we pay pulster.de we can not afford to pay in advance. How do we communicate? Should I open an e-mail adres fot this? Do any of you want to do the group thing with pulster, or buy as an individual or take your money to the states?<br />
<br />
SeeYa,<br />
Michel<br />
<br />
{[[User:nicolas|Nico Veenkamp]] 26/06}. I am willing to group my order together with the rest using Open Source Nieuws Nederland as intermediate. Specifically to have the priority advantage of the group order mentioned by Michel to get my hands as soon as possible on the Neo FreeRunner. I would suggest to Michel to put order details on this page and open a specific email adres to receive orders.<br />
<br />
I'm also in on that groupsale. Too bad it doesn't include the goodie bag, but that doesn't matter much. :) I'd suggest setting up an email address. You do need address details from the participants. :) <br /> Or do you prefer to set a date on which the Neos are handed to everyone in person? :) <br /> [ [[User:Madjo|MadJo]] 08:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC) ]<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/06}Count me in on the group sale too. My main interest is to get the neo as soon as possible and to have an individual tax receipt. Is that possible when i join in on the group sale?<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/06} Okay, The following will happen. I will try and mail everyone on the group sale page (as long as people are using a registered username with e-mail address) and this talk page (when not on the group sale page) with the specifics, I will also mail to the community mail list with that message. Keep in mind, this will all take some time because first we need to give people a chance to "sign up", then to transfer money and then for us to transfer all that money to pulster. Then (when pulster has the money) the phones will be send to us and then they will be send to the people. So do not expect them to be with you within a few days after making the money transfer to us, if you want that then try your luck by buying it on your own and hope that there will enough in stock at pulster.de before you get there.<br />
<br />
We will be sending the phones with insured postage, this will put an extra Euro 7,95 on top of the Pulster.de price of Euro 299. It could be we have to do some extra wrapping, I'm waiting for an answer on that part by Pulster. We still need 10 or more buyers so if that number is not reached it is everyone for his/her self.<br />
<br />
Maybe we need to put something on the group sale page?<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/06} Is it possible to verify at Pulster if they put individual receipts with the phones, or they just send one for the whole group?<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/06} To quote from the above mentioned mail from Pulster.de "For warranty issues we are happy to include a separate invoice for each person of the GroupSale" So that's okay.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 27/06} According to messages on the community list Pulster will start shipping on the 4th of July, we probably should have our order in before that, otherwise were better of just ordering on our own. The savings has been reduced to around EUR 8,- on shipping. I'm not sure that alone makes it worth the hassle, and they are taking orders right now...<br />
<br />
([[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/06} I'm not sure what to do right now... We're at 29 of 30 now, but I am really tempted to pre-order now... Any advice we can give each other?<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 27/06} To be honest, I think anyone who wants it asap should just order it from pulster. The benefits of a group purchase there are just 8,- and it will take time to get it all setup and to get the distribution done. <br />
A group order may just be worthwhile when getting 10packs from the states, the cost will be roughly the same, but it will include the goodies (and loose the warranty), maybe there are 10 people who consider that worth the effort.<br />
Unless someone convinces me to do otherwise I will just place my own order with pulster by the end of today...<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 27/06} Okay, my thoughts exactly, after reading the message in te mailing list today from Christohper and thinking about it and reading your remarks, I have to agree. Organizing all this including transfering the money to our account and then the rest of the process, you are better of ordering dirct from Pulster, and the fact that you can order extra's as well. So as far as I'm concerned the group sale is of and I would advice everyone to order at pulster.de<br />
<br />
So I will NOT be sending out e-mails today to organize all of this. It's everyone for his/her self. :) Start ordering. :) Maybe a message stating this should be put on the group sale page?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Atilla|Atilla Filiz]] 27/06} The resellers have started to ship and some even finished their first stocks. If there is a group already formed, count me in. Otherwise, it seems it's best as "every gentleman for himself".<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 27/06} I just placed an individual order at Pulster.de, so i won't be joining you one the group sale. I'm trying to get the phone before the 12th of july, so i'm in a bit of a hurry.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 27/06} I put an order in with Pulster as well this afternoon. The price is right.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 28/06} As was to be expected we would never have had any chance to be quick enough to get a group sale together for Pulster. If you look at the sales page now for the Freerunner the next order round is for the 25th, I only have an automatic order reply for my personal order, not the human one so I'm not even certain of the 05-07 batch. Time will tell. Hope the others kept on reading this page.<br />
<br />
== Canada ==<br />
==== GTA (Toronto) ====<br />
{ --[[User:Argo|Argo]] 03:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC) }<br />
For group 1 it looks like they have actually gotten the 10 orders in? or am I them adding up wrong?<br />
<br />
== Croatia ==<br />
{--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 14:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)} '''ja ne bih da već sada radimo pan-balkansku grupu, iskreno sam iznenađen odazivom do sada, pa jedino možda ako ne skupimo dovoljno ljudi do kraja ovog tjedna...'''<br />
<br />
moj post sa hr.comp.os.linux upućen mnalisu;<br />
<br />
> BTW, ti si zapravo kontaktirao HULK i rekli su ti da bi to oni isli raditi i<br />
<br />
> gnjaviti se sa svim tim, ili ih cisto spominjes onako u smislu "pa oni su<br />
<br />
> dragi ljudi, sigurno ce besplatno uloziti mjesece svog zivota u to u zamjenu<br />
<br />
> za pivu" ?<br />
<br />
Davio sam ih malo zadnja dva dana na IRCu, i prema logu načelno su za<br />
da se narudžbe hendlaju preko njih. A i mislim da se ipak ne radi o<br />
mjesecima života bačenih za pivu, more like možda 2-3 sata za gajbu<br />
ili dvije :), hell ako je toliko teško napravit ću ja sve, učlanit se<br />
u HULK ako treba<br />
<br />
ali do toga trenutka ovako ja razmišljam:<br />
<br />
1.) skupimo 10 zainteresiranih<br />
2.) ja nazovem carinu i agenciju za telekomunikacije<br />
3.) pitamo openmoko za shipping estimate<br />
4.) ako su svi i dalje za, skupljanje sredstava i na kraju narudžba<br />
<br />
dakle ništa nije obligatory, idemo step by step, onog trenutka kada se<br />
prijavi 10 ljudi na wikiju ja zovem nadležne službe, pa ćemo vidit di<br />
stojimo sa uvozom i tim''<br />
<br />
nemoj odmah "worst case scenario" :)<br />
<br />
>> mozda da se malo na elitesecurity.org pokrene rasprava?<br />
<br />
--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 10:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC) svakako, ja sam za<br />
<br />
== Czech Republic ==<br />
Distribuční seznam, základní informace naleznete v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Czech_Republic GroupSales]<br />
<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Diskuze Diskuze]<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Dopl.C5.88uj.C3.ADc.C3.AD_informace Doplňující informace]<br />
<br />
=== Diskuze ===<br />
''Martin Holec''> Máme tu 4x ze Zlína, co kdyby někdo jel do Brna pro 4ks a ve Zlíně by se rozdělili?<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> jak jsem psal, já do Zlína jezdívám, a od května do září budu ve Zlíně velmi často, takže se Zlínem není vůbec problém.<br />
<br />
Jinak už se objevily nějaké termíny. Jestli jsem to dobře pochopil, tak 9.5. by už mohla začít masová výroba a brzy na to by měl začít prodej...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak by měl vlastně vypadat? Takový ten bíly se mně moc nelíbí. Radši bych měl [http://http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:FIC-neo1973_small.jpg černý].<br />
<br />
''Michal Pěnka''> Protože jsem jedenáctý a nevím, jestli bude možné objednat 11 kusů nebo jen po desítkách, domluvím se s Tomem Vargou později (jestli by byl ochotný pro převoz do Prahy), každopádně bych také raději ten černý.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak to tak tady pročítám tak to půjde objednat za zvýhodněnou cenu (+pytlík? a headset) opravdu jenom po desítkách. Ale IMHO když této stránce zvedneme popularitu (případně přiberem Slováky) tak jich budem nakonec brát minimálně dvacet ;) Mně osobně připadá datum 9.5. hodně optimistické.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> FreeRunner bude pouze v jedné barevné variantě, a to černý. To datum 9.5. mám [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates odsud]<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>Nemáte někdo fotku freerunnera ? na wiki jsem zatím našel jenom fotky GTA1-čky<br />
<br />
''David Kozub''>> Jelikoz se vyskytuju ve Zline i v Praze, muzu zajistit prevoz do Prahy.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No tak například tady to máš dokonce na videu: http://youtube.com/watch?v=k9QLdK6pFCI ;-) Ale jinak i na wiki se povalují fotky FreeRunnera. Například hned ta první na hlavní stránce ;-)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> To video je parádní. Co se týče té fotky z úvodu wiki, myslel jsem, že je to jenom render. Jinak jak jsem tak bloudil po stránkách české pošty - nejlevněj to nejspíš vyjde poslat jako profibalík za myslím že 64korun. Za dobírku se něco ještě připlácí. Balík je pojištěný do 100 000. [http://www.cpost.cz:80/jetspeed/portal/media-type/html/user/anon/page/default.psml/js_pane/sluzbyonline%2Czasilky?docid=370&calc_lb0=10424&calc_cb0=1 více zde]<br />
<br />
ad. '''Praha (Čechy):'''<br />
<br />
''Tom Varga''>> Pokoušel jsem se vyčíst z mailing listu, jak je to s tou množstevní slevou - co jsem z toho pochopil, tak by neměl být problém objednat množství nedělitené desíti, ale ty kusy navíc jsou pak [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016432.html bez slevy] a [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016202.html bez bonusu]; pořád by se to ale vyplatilo skrze poštovné. Prozatím bych navrhl, aby se zájemci z Prahy (Čech) zapsali / potvrdili smazáním otazníku v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu], možná něco podobného pro Slovensko - momentálně to vypadá, že bude snazší sehnat 20 zájemců celkem a taky by se tím mohla situace trochu vyjasnit. Osobně jsem schopen zajistit dovoz z Brna do Prahy, Liberce, Jablonce n.N. a přilehlých končin. Případné návrhy sem ;)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>> Řekl bych že čím větší balík poletí za Ameriky sem tím levněj to vyjde. Pokud není poštovné na gramy. 20-ti zájemců se určitě dočkáme. Když počítám Františka Horínka z Bratislavy tak je nás 18. Co se týče bonusů na headsetu moc nelpím ale ten pytel by se mně vážně hodil. Často v kapse kombinuju mobil a klíče nebo šroubovák...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>> Poštovné samozřejmě není na gramy, ale na libry, neboli každých započatých 0.45 kg se platí, plus se poštovné započítává do cla, mimochodem taková zásilka asi jen tak přes celnici neprojde, takže je možné, že nikdo (příjemce) bude muset dodat na celnici případné dokumenty dokladující hodnotu zasílaného zboží.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''>>>>> Tak dle "platného" celního sazebníku by se clo nemělo platit. Viz [http://disk.jabbim.cz/ivir@jabbim.com/celni_sazebnik.pdf Sazebník] strana 568. Tedy by se hradilo pouze DPH. Aspoň si myslím, že 20 telefonů jako "dárek" asi neprojde.<br />
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''Michal Bořek''>>>>>> No tím lépe, ale tak já to beztak myslel jako celý celní dluh a to dph je právě i z poštovného.<br />
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''Miloslav Machotka''> Koukám že jsem trochu zaspal dění. :) V [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu] jsem se připsal k Praze. Mám to nejblíž, jsem z Vlašimi, ale jinak jsem pro to schopen dojet i do Brna. Jsem pro to aby se to vyřešilo, pokud možno, po desítkách a pak to rozvést (rozeslat) po Čechách a Slovensku. Bonusy se asi většině lidí hodí.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''>>>>>>> DPH musíme taky platit ?? To je mrzuté. Kolik mají DPH slováci ? nevyšlo by to levněj poslat do Bratislavy a stama ''"propašovat"'' k nám ? Když už máme ten šengen... Nevrátí nám třeba amíci DPH které za to zaplatili u nich ?<br />
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''Jan Mareš''>>>>>>>> Co je mi známo, tak při obchodování mimo zemi se DPH neúčtuje a účtuje se až v cílové zemi. Dle rok starého článku na měšci je základní sazba stejná, tj. 19%. Od DPH by to šlo odprostit pouze pokud by na tom balíku bylo napsáno, že se jedná o dárek. Pak se na to daň neuplatní. Jakmile se mi povede najít ustanovení/článek, tak jsem dám odkaz.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''> No ono je stále ještě otázkou, odkud to vůbec budou posílat. Protože sem někde viděl informace, že se budou snažit zásobovat Evropu z nějakého centra v Evropě. O tom dárku jsem taky slyšel, ale prej to taky není zaručený způsob. Celníci se do toho můžou podívat, a uvalit na to daň podle vlastního rozhodnutí (prej). Jinak ale je tu ještě možnost, že by nám to někdo dovezl. Nevíte jak to funguje v tom případě?<br />
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''Jan Mareš''>>To centrum v Evropě bylo v plánu avšak levněji jim to vyjde posílání z Ameriky, takže bude k dispozici jen jedno centrum v USA. Ohledně toho dárku jsem doposud četl, že jeho částka nesmí přesáhnout 55€, jinak je normálně proclíván. Při osobním převozu jsou nastaveny limity výše viz [http://www.celnisprava.cz/CmsGrc/Cestovani-a-nakupy/Jak-se-chovat/mimo-eu.htm celní správa].<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Kdyby vezl dva tři tak by možná ukecal že je to dárek ale dvacet... clo vem čert to bude nanejvýš 3,5% což není taková pálka. Spíš kdy se to DPH z toho platí ? Hned na celnici nebo musím podat něco jako daňové přiznání ?<br />
* No tak zatím jsem zjistil že nejspíš jediná šance jak se osvobodit od cla a DPH je že všeci sedem do letadla a zajedem si pro to. Limit je 6000kč na jednu osobu starší 15-ti let.<br />
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''Jan Mares''>>>> Clo se na tento druh zboží nevztahuje. Platí se pouze české DPH, který ti celníci vyměří z ''ceny zboží + doprava + clo'', pak ti v případě fyzické osoby zašlou na tvou poštu, kde uhradíš DPH jako dobírku. U podnikatele je to trošku jiné. VAT (čili americké DPH) na zboží nebude uvaleno, jelikož zboží je vyváženo z USA.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''> No a dá se tohle spočítat předem? Abysme mohli stanovit cenu?<br />
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''Michal Bořek''>> No dokud nebude jasne kolik bude stat postovne (typ + vaha) a jaky bude kurs dolaru, tak presna cena asi tezko.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''>>No co. Tak ti každý pošlem sedm tisíc s tím, že potom přebytky rozdělíš do obálek a budeš předávat s každým telefonem obálku. Jinak to asi dost dobře nepůjde. Jedině že by nám to sem dopravila česká pobočka FIC-u/foxconn. Ale to je podle mně nepravděpodobné.<br />
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''Michal Bořek''>>>JJ take myslim, ze bych dal predbeznou cenu 7K s tim, ze uz je poslem, at muzes pruzne zareagovat a ne pak cekat az vsichni poslou.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''>>>> Kdyby se zase Steve nebo někdo vyjádřil v jakém je to stavu a přidal předběžný odhad kdy se začne prodávat. Teďka je to těžko. Můžou ho vydat zítra ale taky třeba i za půl roku pokud se objeví nějaký složitý problém.<br />
Ještě k té předběžné ceně - dolar není za 15 korun ale za 16,1-16,2 korun I s DPH se do těch 7000 nespíš nevejdem. Jestli že se domluvíme žo začnem posílat peníze tak navrhuju posílat 7500. IMHO dolar už níž nepůjde.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Co jsem se zatím díval na možnosti přepravy (DHL,Fedex,UPS,USPS), tak nejvýhodněji vychází USPS ([http://www.usps.com/ usps.com]), kdy se pohybujeme kolem částky 120$ i s pojištěním (kdyby to bylo cca 10kg což pochybuji). Bohužel maximální pojištění činí 5 000$, přičemž celková částka balíku vychází na cca 7 580$ . U ostatních jsem ohledně pojištění nenašel zmínku, přičemž poštovné vycházelo většinou přes 500$. Z pohledu pojištění by bylo vhodné objednávky rozdělit. Ještě bude záležet jaké poštovní služby nabídnou v e-shopu. Včera u ČSOB byla prodejní cena dolaru na 16,44Kč/$ a musím bohužel souhlasit, že lepší to už nebude. Jinak ceník je k dispozici na této adrese [http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781 http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781] .<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''> Teď mně napadlo - co kdyby jsem někde založili učet (nejlépe spořící) v dolarech a poslali to tam teď ? [http://www.mesec.cz/clanky/ucet-v-cizi-mene-ano-ale-kde/] Kdyby tak člověk věděl že pozítru neoznámí prodej...<br />
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''Michal Bořek''>>>>> Tak urcite bych pockal s placenim na nejake jistejsi vyjadreni, ale necekal bych na otevreni kramu, tehdy uz by chtelo, aby se to dalo hned objednat, co se tyka uctu neverim, ze dolar spadne, ale ani ze poroste a tak bych to neresil.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Vzhledem k množství objednávaného zboží bych možná už využil dopravních společností, které za nás provedou celní odbavení. Aspoň metodický pokyny k vyplnění JSD (jednotný správní doklad) nejsou triviální a zabere to minimálně půlden. Ukázku dokumentu jsme nalezl zde: [http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/ http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/].<br />
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''Michal Bořek''>> Dole v tom dopisu z celního úřadu se píše: "který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost" to nikdo z nás má?<br />
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''Michal Bořek'' >> '''[http://www.trisoft.de/en_freerunner.htm Evropský Distributor]''', ale je celkem dražší.<br />
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''Radek Machulka'' > Což o to, [http://www.pulster.de/ tady] je o 50 euro levnější, ale nemyslím si, že to bude ve výsledku výhodnější.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''>>> Co jsem se díval do pokynů, tak to může vyplnit i fyzická osoba, jelikož každý způsobilý občan může provést obchodní činnost. Pouze nesmí být opakovaného rázu, tj. jednorázové obchody. Zkusím se tedy dotázat konkrétněji na tuto část. Ohledně toho evropského distributora nevím. Odhadem to vychází přes 1000 Kč dráž bez poštovného a bez bonusů. Jestliže se nám poradí vyřešit problém s celním úřadem, tak bych spíše volil objednávku z USA. Připadá mi, že tyhle obchody to jen objednají v USA, přijmou a přepošlou s přirážkou.<br />
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''Michal Bořek'' >>>> Take jsem pro USA, jen sem to nasel a ac ten od Radka Machulky je uz zajimavejsi tak verim, ze se dostanem i pod nej a jeste je tam ten obal a sluchatka.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''> Já jsem též pro USA. Ještě by bylo možné (teoreticky) zkusit si to objednat přes nějakého (mešího) obchodníka co bere věci od FIC-u<br />
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''Michal Bořek''> Tož sem [[GroupSales#Aktu.C3.A1ln.C4.9B|vyhlásil konkurz]] na koordinátora pražské větve a snad se najde někdo kdo je schopen se vejít do těch zásadních bodů co jsem tam nastínil.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Relativně požadavky splňuji. Mám studentský ČSOB účet mající limit na 1,5M, kartu Visa Classic, angličtinu zvládám na úrovni čtení technické dokumentace, bydlím na Barrandově a jabber též mám (ivir@jabbim.com). Jen tu důvěryhodnost nemám. :) S tím clem to bude ještě zajímavé, ale snad mi ohledně toho ještě poradí z celního úřadu. V nouzi mám k dispozici i OSVČ. :)<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Dle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017531.html příspěvku] bude dovoz zboží do USA zahájen někdy 1.června. K tomu je nutné připočítat min. týden až 3 než zboží dorazí do skladů. Z příspěvku teoreticky vyplývá, že bude i evropský HUB. Snad to bude za stejnou částku a s bonusy. :)<br />
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''Michal Bořek''>Podle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017607.html příspěvku] by měl webový shop odkazovat na us i eu a to vypadá čím dál nadějnějš co se týká poštovného aj cla.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' jestli to dobře překládám tak není jasné jakým způsobem to půjde z činy - jestli lodí nebo letadlem ?<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Ano, aspoň takto jsem to pochopil i já. Problémem je ta doba dodání. Jinak co se týká vyřízení JSD (cla), tak u zprostředkovatele [http://www.kama-eu.cz/ KAMA s.r.o.>, jež mi doporučil celní úřad, vychází na cca 1000 Kč viz ceník, což mi připadá přijatelné.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''> No mně ty informace od Steva přijdou vždycky nějaké zmatené. Nevědí jestli lodí nebo letadlem, ale odejít by to snad mělo až 1.6. (nebo co má znamenat to datum, v jeho zprávě), takže to ještě docela potrvá... :-(<br />
Jan Mareš: můžeš prosím popsat co přesně má být těch 1000Kč a jak se na to přijde? Já tomu pořád nějak nerozumím...<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''>> <font color="gray">best case is I would start to test phones around the first of june. Then<br />
pack and ship.<br />
</font>1.6. začíná testovat telefony a potm je balit a odesílat.<br><br />
<font color=gray>The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically you<br />
build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy% pass the test, and the factory says.<br />
"good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on the<br />
test software, because that bad phone really was good." arrg.</font> Ale toto nějak moc nechápu.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Vychází to takto: 250 Kč (vypracování JSD), 30 Kč (vypracování hodnoty), 250 Kč (jednani za deklaranta), 30 Kč (avízo) a pak asi ručení (350). Je to můj odhad a po konkrétním dotaze by měli sdělit částku. Asi tedy bude třeba připočítat poštovné (250 Kč). Zatím jsem jim napsal dotaz ohledně nepodnikající osoby s tímto množstvím, tak jsem zvědav kdy odpoví.<br />
Tu další část považuji za povzdychnutí, kdy jim vyrobili více telefonů z nichž jen část prošla a továrna chce tohle číslo minimalizovat a že dané chyby byly spíše SW povahy.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' Podle toho co píšeš bych řekl že by vyšlo levněj kdyby jsme brali všechny telefony dohromady.Jaké má výhody osamostatnění Prahy ?<br />
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''Michal Bořek'' No nedokazeme pojistit 30telefonu na jejich cenu pri doprave, ale jinak pokud by to clo vyrizovala firma asi by to bylo vyhodnejsi.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Trochu mě znepokojují zprávy v community e-mail archivu, kde uvádějí, že openmoko e-shop využívá služeb UPS. U nich by nebyl problém s pojištěním, ale ty ceny. Cena je de facto konstantní na cca 600$ (při 10kg balíčku), takže pak by bylo vhodné objednávku shrnout dohromady. Pak by to vycházelo o cca 10$ na hlavu více. Snažím se přesvědčit otce jako OSVČ, že by byla objednávka napsaná na něj a tím pádem by odpadl problém s využitím výše uvedené společnosti od nichž jsem dostal zamítavé stanovisko ohledně "neobchodní zásilky".<br />
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Pak už zbývá využít evropského distributora Pulster.de . Teoreticky mi vychází částka při dovozu z US na 7600 Kč a u Pulsteru na 7 660Kč bez poštovné. Avšak za předpokladu společné hromadné objednávky. V opačném případě je nutné připočíst u US objednávky cca tisícovku (při 10 lidech).<br />
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Zapomněl jsem tedy dodat, že zboží by bylo v republice za 4-5 dnů + pár dnů na vyřízení celního řízení.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''> veškeré spekulace jsou zatím velmi předběžné, protože ani sami prodejci ještě nemají jasno, za jakých podmínek budou FreeRunner prodávat. Každopádně Pulster se mi docela zamlouvá (viz níže), vypadá že s panem majitelem se dá rozumně domluvit. Asi mu řeknu že objednávám telefonů 40, aby byl kdyžtak ochoten větší slevy nebo nějakého zvýhodnění a nechám tu zásilku jenom rozdělit a poslat do Prahy a sobě... Ale jak říkám, pořád ještě je všechno předběžné, definitivně se rozhodne asi už během tohoto měsíce.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''> Ještě jedna novinka: pan Christoph Pulster z pulster.de mně oznámil zahájení prodeje debug boardu za "lidovou" cenu 149€ což je docela rozdíl oproti 99$... Takže jak říkám, všechno jsou teď jenom teoretické úvahy jak objednávku zorganizovat. Ikdyž osobně dávám pulster.de naděje, myslím, že se na ceně jak debugboardu, tak telefonu, bude dát domluvit, stejně jako nulová cena za dopravu zní přijatelně :-)<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''> Pražáků je docela nešťastý počet. Jediné co mně napadá je pokusit se domluvit s Plusterem že by vzal 4 desítky z toho nám přeposlal těch 34 a zbytek by si nechal a prodal. A taky chci poděkovat Martinu Šenkeříkovi za to že se o nás tak stará.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''>Tak je otázkou jak vlastně Pulster bude fungovat. Jako evropský distributor by měl od openmoko odbržet třeba 500ks (na dluh), které pak prodává. Z tohoto pohledu je jedno jaký počet telefonů se objedná. Pochybuji, že ta distribuce je založena na tom, že mi mu zaplatíme a on to objedná z US skladu. Pak by se určitě lépe hodil nákup přímo z US, kdy skrze UPS by se vyřídily všechny formality s celním úřadem. Rozhodující je konečná cena u Pulsteru.<br />
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''Radek Machulka'' > Tak to vypada, ze si budeme moci vybrat: [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-June/019117.html list]<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Žel s ohledem na co nejnižší cenu jsou oba distributori mimo hru, kdy se pohybujeme s cenou kolem 8 700Kč, což je hnedle o tisícikorunu více než při objednání z US. Doufejme, že Pulster nahodí lepší cenu.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' > To je mrzuté. Vypadá to, že se všichni distributoři rozhodli, že si na tom namastí kapsu a spoléhají na to, že nic podobného neexistuje a že je to novinka...<br />
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''Michal Bořek'' >> Podle té dvojnásobné ceny debug boardu se dá soudit, že nám nic jiného než US nezbude,tyhle EU distributoři jsou fakt jen zlatokopové.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Doufám že je amíci nezančou dorovnávat.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík'' > Jak jsem už několikrát psal, na jakékoliv spekulace je pořád brzo, situace se stále vyvíjí -> pulster dnes debugboard oficiálně slevnil na 99€. Takže ještě pořád není rozhodnuto. Prostě počkáme s čím kdo přijde (případně distributory trošku nakopnu sám :-)). "Amíci" je rozhodně dorovnávat nezačnou, když od "amíků" to ti Evropští distributoři objednávají ;-)<br />
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''Miloslav Machotka'' > K diskuzi o zvolení prodejce. Já jsem určitě pro Pulster. Cena je myslím dobrá a hlavně to ušetří Martinu Šenkeříkovi práci, které s náma má i tak dost. A pokud jsem to správně pochopil, řeší to i problém s počtem telefonů nedělitelným deseti. Všichni dostanou za svoje peníze totéž.<br />
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''František Horínek'' > Veľmi si vážim to, čo pre nás Martin Šenkeřík robí ale mam pocit, že 299€ je viac ako $399 a potom sa stráca akákoľvek zľava. Neviete niekto koľko by stála doprava z USA?<br />
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''Miloslav Machotka'' >> Podle dnešního kurzu to vychází následovně. 299€ = 7240 kč. 369$ = 5777kč * 1,19 DPH = 6875 kč. A to v tom nemáte dopravu a tu práci s vyřizováním. Nabídka Pulsteru mi přijde jako výhodná.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík'' >> Ok, myslel jsem že je to tu někde sepsané, ale radši to připomenu: 299€ (cca 7300Kč) je definitivní cena, to je cifra kterou dá každý z nás za telefon v případě objednávky od Pulstera. <br />
Naopak cena 369$ (cca 5830Kč) není ani zdaleka konečná. Připočítáme daň 19% a dostaneme se na cca 7000Kč. Stále ještě zbývá připočítat clo a poštovné (aspoň doufám, že jsem správně pochopil, co se podařilo zjistit ostatním). A to nepočítám pravděpodobné papírování a obíhání úřadů (ikdyž někdo myslím psal, že UPS to všechno řeší sama). Když už ne levněji, tak to vyjde minimálně na stejno... Kdyžtak mě doplňte/opravte, kdo se těmi cly zabýval hlouběji.<br />
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''Jan Mareš'' > Hezky shrnuto. UPS veškeré papírování ohledně DPH a cla řeší. Telefony spadají do 0% cla, takže se platí jen DPH, které je však vypočítávané i s dopravou, která je je celkem vysoká, aspoň při vypůjčení odhadů od Švýcarů, tj. 3kg za 10 telefonů, tak poštovné bude činit přes 10 000Kč. Takže to vychází nastejno či díky klesajícímu euru i výhodněji. Navíc plusem je 2letá záruka, naproti jednoleté z US.<br />
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''František Horínek'' >> Ďakujem za objasnenie na DPH som úplne zabudol. Máte pravdu je to výhodné<br />
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''Luboš Podrázský'' >> Zdravím, tak jsem taky pro Pulster.de. Cena vyjde víceméně nastejno, méně starostí pro organizátory, delší záruka a jestli se tím vyřeší i počet kusů nedělitelný 10-ti, tak asi neni co řešit.<br />
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''Michal Pěnka'' > Podle všech informací tady a na hlavní stránce groupsales se také přikláním k pulster. Dvouletá záruka není zanedbatelná. Už se těším :)<br />
<br />
''Karel Volný'' > Pokud od Pulster dostaneme totéž, jako bychom dostali z USA, tak těch případných pár korun navíc klidně obětuju ve prospěch jednodušší organizace.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' > jestli jsem dobře pochopil zprávu na [[Community Updates]] tak by se 4.Července mělo začít prodávat. (...) Jak vůbec bude probíhat potenciální vyřizování reklamace ? Já teda doufám že při prvních kusech budou číňani odpočatí a budou dělat kvalitně, ale při mém štěstí úplně vidím jak to zapnu a ono to zasmrdí...<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Co se týče objednávky, já osobně bych počkal na zahájení prodeje, t.j. na dobu, kdy bude jasné kdo a za jakých podmínek bude FR prodávat. Je pochopitelné, že Pulster.de nemůže potvrdit konečnou cenu, protože si ji víceméně vycucal z prstu.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš'' > Pulster předobjednávky nebere, tady jde spíše o stanovení částky, kterou Martin bude vybírat, aby se vracely jen drobné. Jde o urychlení objednávky, aby na nás vyšli ty univerzální stylusy. :) Ještě je nutné připočíst cca 3 dny na převod peněz na jejich účet. Ohledně té reklamace, tak při tomto způsobu objednání je nutné reklamované zboží zaslat do Pulsteru, kde bude reklamace vyřizována. Šlo by to přímo u FICu, ale české zastoupení prochází převzetím, viz vyjádření níže. Co jsem doposud zachytil, tak všechny FR jsou před balením testovány na funkčnost, takže může dojít k poškození jedině při přepravě, což bychom měli zachytit při přebírání zboží v Brně. Dle dostupných fotek balení jsou FR bytelně baleni, takže ani toto by nemělo hrozit.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >> Jasně že dělají všecko proto aby byl počet reklamací co nejnižší, konec konců šetří tak peníze sami sobě, ale jsou věci které se dost dobře odzkoušet nedají. Naštěstí FR nemá žádné klouby nebo kryty které by se časem mohly rozpadnout takže mi snad vydrží aspoň 5 let. (...) není jedno jestli se vrací 5korun nebo pětistovka ?<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Já spíš tlumil to nadšení z pulster.de jako nejvýhodnějšího prodejce. Taky si nemyslím, že by nějaký prodejce byl potenciálně vhodnější z pohledu uplatňování případných reklamací.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >> Tak pluster láká dvouletou zárukou.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >> Jestli to s Plusterem bude fungovat tak, že pošlu 7500 (tj 300EUR) a dostanu za to FR tak, sice nerad, ale oželím i ten obal. Ono z USA to nejspíš stejně nevyjde o moc levněj. Jestli vůbec. Pokud vezmu 369USD s kurzem 16Kč a k tomu 19% DPH tak jmse rázem na sedmi tisících a to jsme ještě nezaplatili poštovné, na které se to DPH taky vzathuje, + přpadné poplatky za bůhví co.<br />
Já jsem pro pluster.<br />
<br />
''Vojtěch Vozáb'' >> Asi bych taky byl pro pulster, protože dokud napevno neurčí cenu tak objednávka není závazná (opravte mě jestli se pletu), takže kdyby nějak zásadně zdražil, může se přinejhorším objednávka zrušit a objednat z Ameriky. Hlavně by bylo dobré vyřešit to rychle, pro mě je poslední termín kdy můžu zaplatit ve čtvrtek 26. června a pak až 4. července, mezi tím jsem pryč. To by sice mohlo stačit, protože prodej imho stejně dříve než 4. nezačne, ale bylo by samozřejmě lepší mít jistotu a shromáždit peníze v předstihu.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík'' > S Vojtou jsme to pořešili. A teď abysme zabili nějaký čas, než dorazí telefony k distributorům, bych se vás chtěl zeptat, jestli vám stačí, když číslo účtu pak pošlu mailem, hodím na svůj server a napíšu na wiki? Jestli se to někomu zdá málo bezpečné, navrhněte prosím lepší způsob.<br />
<br />
''František Horínek'' > Ja si osobne myslím, že mail podpísaný pgp-čkom určite nič nepokazíte. Tiež by nebolo zle hodiť to na osobný server z SSL a rozdistribuovať fingerprint certifikátu. Možno ešte spraviť SHA a/alebo MD5 sumy čísla účtu/IP adresy servera. Hashe a fingerprinty rozosielať iba mejlom. Možno spraviť IRC server na ktorý sa bude dať dostať iba cez VPN/SSH z overovaním kľúča. Samotná komunikácia môže prebiehať v nejakej klasickej šifre napr. Vernamova šifra, ktorá je doteraz považovaná bez klúča za neprelomitelnú. Ale to už je moc veľa paranoje, či nie? :-)<br />
<br />
''František Horínek'' > teraz ma napadlo, že by sa dali použiť slová z mejlov, keď ste si kontrolovali naše adresy z distribučnej siete, na prístup na v osobný server, Server by sa potom autentifikoval inou časťou mejlu, potom by sa zobrazilo číslo účtu. Tieto texty by potencionálny útočník nemal ako získať.<br />
<br />
Napr 1-3 slovo z prvého odstavca mejlu<br />
<br />
ssh/https: zadajte 1-3 slovo z 1 odstavca mejlu<br />
zadám: "Dnes bylo oficialne"<br />
odpove: 4-5 slovo 1 odstavec "potvrzeno zahajeni"; čislo účtu je 123456789<br />
<br />
tým pádom získam informáciu ktorá je adresovaná len pre oúzky kruh ľudí a ja viem, že tá informácia nie je podvodná.<br />
<br />
Len preto, že som paranoidný neznamená, že ma nesledujú. Idú po mne. :-D<br />
<br />
'' Martin Šenkeřík '' > Uf... No problém je jeden, právě mně dorazil email z Pulster s exkluzivní nabídkou: dorazila mu první zásilka telefonů, obchod ještě neotevírá, ale nám už to nabízí ke koupi. Tzn. můžeme začít vybírat peníze, cenu 299€ potvrdil. Bližší info zveřejním za chvíli. A já už takovou ověřovací aplikaci nestihnu implementovat. Můžeme ještě využít jabber ohin@jabbim.cz - někteří lidé se mnou už komunikovali, takže potvrdí že za ním jsem opravdu já. A můžu pro největší paranoiky odpovědět libovolné otázky. Příp. mám v profilu vyplněn i telefon na sebe.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >> Pokud mám číslo účtu někoho - jak mu s tím můžu ublížit? Já bych to s tím zabezpečování nepřeháněl. Už jenom proto že posílám nemalý peníz na účet člověka, kterého jsem nikdy neviděl. Rozešli mailem variabilní symboly nebo něco podobného ať naše platby můžeš identifikovat. a nebo ti můžeme do zprávy pro příjemce napsat každý svoje jméno.<br />
<br />
''Milan Šedý'' >> Taky myslím, že nemusíme být až tak paranoidní. Na identifikaci stačí podle mě zpráva pro příjemce se jménem.<br />
<br />
''Jan Černý'' >> Jestli jsem správně pochopil ten email od Pulstera, tak se všechno příslušenství včetně obalu a headsetu musí objednat zvlášť. Jak se to bude zařizovat?<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>> No já to mám zařízené tak, že obal mně ušije ségra na narozky a bez headsetu se obejdu.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''>>>> hehe, tak když už bude v tom, tak to by mohla ušít pro všechny ;-) Jinak informace k objednávání příslušenství jsou na wiki.<br />
<br />
''Tomáš Sirný'' >>>> tak pozeram ze sme este dopadli dobre [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner tu] predavaju za 349 Eur a navyse je iba obal.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>>> no tak k tomu sestřičku asi nepřesvědčím ;) nic méně jako obal yb se myslím dal použít sášek na brýle. prodávájí se všude možně, stojí kolem 30-ti korun a jsou kvalitní a celkem pěkné. Tak jsem to trošku měřil nejspíš se tam FR vejde.<br />
<br />
=== Doplňující informace ===<br />
* '''Vyjádření Pulster.de na objednávku většího množství telefonů:'''<br />
Hello,<br />
<br />
on OpenMoko wiki they announced: "Every 10 pack, will come with<br />
a box of stuff. 10 pouches and 10 head sets." Will this offer<br />
also be available in your shop? Some discount and bonus gadgets?<br />
I already want to order 20-30 phones to Czech Republic, so I am<br />
trying to find the best way, how to order this amount. Either<br />
from USA or from EU.<br />
<br />
Thank you, Martin Senkerik<br />
<br />
Hello,<br />
<br />
thanks a lot for asking. Right now we dont have Freerunner in<br />
stock, so no idea about earphones/pouches, sorry.<br />
I am happy to provide Czech users with OpenMokos. No customs,<br />
no paperwork, I have a lot CZ customers.<br />
Allow me to put you on the info list once it is avalaible and you<br />
get clear infos about all. We can work out free shipping and <br />
maybe some goodies.<br />
<br />
<br />
heres the standard info text:<br />
<br />
The new modell is called "Freerunner" (version GTA02).<br />
It will be available end of June 2008. We try to aim 300-350 EUR<br />
sales price.<br />
Once it's ready to ship, you willfind it in our shop.<br />
We do not make pre-orders of items we dont have in hands,<br />
so please understand. Once the Freerunner is in stock, ready to<br />
ship, we will send you a one-time info mail (we do not send<br />
you any spam, dont worry).<br />
<br />
Of course we are happy you bookmark us and come back to check<br />
for the nice Freerunner. Please find a small datasheet here:<br />
http://www.pulster.de/info/pdas/openmoko/freerunner-flyer.pdf<br />
<br />
<br />
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,<br />
Christoph Pulster<br />
<br />
* '''Moje komunikace s pobočkou FIC v ČR:'''<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
Taiwanský FIC v nejbližších dnech začne s prodejem mobilního telefonu<br />
Neo FreeRunner (www.openmoko.com). Chci se zeptat, jestli bude možné případné<br />
reklamace a opravy řešit u vás?<br />
<br />
Zatím není známý přesný způsob distribuce tohoto telefonu pro Evropu<br />
a Českou republiku. Nebude vaše pobočka zapojena do distribuční sítě?<br />
<br />
Děkuji za odpověď, Martin Šenkeřík<br />
Odpověď:<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
FIC CZ s.r.o. v těchto měsících přechází pod Foxconn CZ.<br />
V případě reklamace či informací se obracejte přímo na FIC TW.<br />
Kontaktní osobou na Zákaznickém oddělení je<br />
<br />
Mr. James Chang<br />
Customer Service Department<br />
Te.: +886 2 8751 8751 ext.6196<br />
James_chang@fic.com.tw<br />
<br />
S pozdravem<br />
<br />
Jarka Ripplova<br />
<br />
* '''Dotaz na celní úřad ohledně zpracování zásilky:'''<br />
Věc: Informace<br />
<br />
K Vaší žádosti o informaci týkající se hromadného dovozu zásilky pro osobní<br />
potřebu více příjemců Vám sdělujeme:<br />
<br />
Za zásilku zboží neobchodní povahy se ve smyslu celních předpisů považují<br />
zásilky, které jsou dováženy příležitostně a které obsahují výhradně zboží<br />
určené k osobnímu užití příjemců nebo jejich rodin, přičemž toto zboží nesmí<br />
povahou ani množstvím svědčit o obchodním úmyslu dovozce. Z uvedeného<br />
vyplývá, že tzv. sběrná zásilka nemůže být považována za zásilku zboží<br />
neobchodní povahy, i když obsah je určen pro osobní potřebu soukromých osob.<br />
Při dovozu zásilky obchodní povahy je zásilka zadržena při vstupu na celní<br />
území EU a příjemce vyzván k předložení celního prohlášení. Celní formality<br />
uskutečňuje příjemce, který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost.<br />
<br />
Pro zboží zařazené v některé z podpoložek čísla 8517 je celním sazebníkem EU<br />
stanovena sazba cla 0 %. Při dovozu zásilky zboží obchodního charakteru<br />
celní orgány posuzují, zda zboží nepodléhá zvláštnímu řízení podle zákona č.<br />
38/1994 Sb., o zahraničním obchodu s vojenským materiálem. Vedle cla se při<br />
propuštění dovezeného zboží do volného oběhu v tuzemsku vyměřuje DPH v<br />
základní sazbě 19 %. Základem pro vyměření DPH je cena, za kterou bylo zboží<br />
prodáno do EU, ke které se přičtou náklady na dopravu zásilky do EU, podle<br />
příslušných ustanovení zákona o DPH.<br />
<br />
Celní dluh, jehož součástí je i DPH, se vyměří v českých korunách z celní<br />
hodnoty převedené na české koruny v kurzu platném pro příslušné období.<br />
Aktuální kurzy měn jsou uveřejněny na stránkách Celní správy České republiky<br />
www.cs.mfcr.cz cestou Servis - Kurzovní lístky.<br />
<br />
== To open Colombia groupsales ==<br />
<br />
I wan to open the Colombia-Bogotá group sales.<br />
I want Neo advanced, no matter if the rest of the people wants the other.<br />
my mail: arawaco@ieee.org<br />
Ideas are welcome<br />
<br />
== USA ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#San_Francisco_Bay_Area San Francisco Bay Area] ===<br />
If everyone agrees [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm I] will pick up and pay for the 10 units from Fremont.<br />
Payment Options...<br />
* Bring cash to the arranged meetup to get the device. (I can arrange to meet up with individuals if needed)<br />
* We need to pay CA tax so keep that in mind, I'll try to get the exact price prior to pickup<br />
* Make sure you have confirmed with me your intention to buy the unit, the priority order will be the order that the list is currently in, any unconfirmed member of the group will be slipped to the bottom of the list on the day the units are available<br />
<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/dufflebunk dufflebunk]<br />
I'm all alone in the second group. I guess if anyone from the first group has to drop out I'll be happy to take their place. I would prefer cash (or cheque), Paypal sucks. <br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/krid krid said: ]<br />
I'm in for cash, just tell me where to show up. However, unless Steve says it'll be massively boring, I'd like to go to Fremont and see the facility. I'll be out of town at OSCON the last week of July, so hopefully we'll be able to do this before then. If not, I'll make arrangements with Jim.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm Jim said: ]<br />
I'll let everyone know when I'm going to Fremont to pick them up (Sounds like the first week in July), so anyone who wants to tag along is welcome and we can distribute them then and there.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Cry_Regarder Cry Regarder] At the time I moved myself from separate monterey to san francisco, there were 8 folks listed. That was 27 May. Jim Lutz wasn't in the list yet. Accordingly, I moved one of mine from the post 10 to above and swapped Jim Lutz down.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Xeromist Kelley said: ]<br />
That's fine Jim. I didn't ask to be given any special treatment and I want everything to remain fair. If we are able to form 2 full groups are you willing to buy for both or will we need to select a distributor for group 2 as well?<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm Jim said: ]<br />
I suspect we will need a second coordinator for the second group, $4k is a lot to fork out at one time, $8k is out of the question for me! However right now I think we can get everyone who has replied a unit from the first 10, unless one of the non-repliers contacts me before we pick up we won't need a second group.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Cry_Regarder Cry Regarder] I emailed "Steve" at openmoko and he said that they are working on the logistics for bulk buys of fractional case lots for quantities over 10. I don't know if they'll sort it out before they arrive though. Another possibility is to join in with LA...they'll probably appreciate having them picked up.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/kenrestivo ken said: ]<br />
I'm not sure how to order one. I guess I just make an entry here? I want one and I'll pay cash. Just tell me where and when to meet. I can do it this weekend or July 4th weekend. Are the units REALLY shipping? Or will it be months before they arrive?<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Brianwc brianwc said: ]<br />
There's been some discussion on the mailing list that getting a mix of 850/900 units might not be possible. We have one person in our group who indicated they want a 900 unit. We should figure out whether this is really possible and if not, either ask our 900 member whether they'll take an 850 or whether we need to bump up the next person in line. It is my intention to go with Jim to the pickup if I'm at all able to do so. Keep me posted.<br />
<br />
Discuss any other ideas here.<br />
<br />
== Spain ==<br />
<br />
I think that the pulster way is cheaper for all of our group. I'll wait, if I can, to place my order until Moday.<br />
<br />
Pienso que nos sale mas barato por logistica comprar en pulster aunque si estamos cerca podriamos juntar las comandas locales.</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Group_salesTalk:Group sales2008-06-27T19:10:39Z<p>Mivaho: /* The Netherlands */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
== England ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}<br />
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?<br />
<br />
:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.<br />
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
::Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====<br />
<br />
I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?<br />
<br />
I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?<br />
<br />
In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(<br />
<br />
:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] - [mailto:stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk let me know] if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
<br />
Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)<br />
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.<br />
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but<br />
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}<br />
<br />
<br />
Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php<br />
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen<br />
<br />
Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van <br />
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd <br />
zou willen zien worden.<br />
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie <br />
over het te leveren artikel.<br />
<br />
Uw naam J. de Haan<br />
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
Artikelinformatie<br />
Merk openmoko<br />
Naam freerunner<br />
Website openmoko.com<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen <br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor <br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail <br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
E-mailcontact - verzonden<br />
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.<br />
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)<br />
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not<br />
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out <br />
on Utrecht CS :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)<br />
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? <br /><br />
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1." <br />
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.<br />
<br />
{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will have 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Belgium Belgium]. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.<br />
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:<br />
<br />
Geachte heer,<br />
<br />
Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
<br />
Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx<br />
Product Management / Technical Support<br />
<br />
Salland Automatisering<br />
<br />
Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post. <br /><br />
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.<br />
from Jan de Haan <haan.j.de@gmail.com><br />
to inkoop@azerty.nl,<br />
date Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM<br />
subject Openmoko - Freerunner<br />
mailed-by gmail.com<br />
<br />
hide details 8:52 PM (0 minutes ago)<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen<br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor<br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
Een importeur schijnt trisoft.de te zijn. Let wel: dit product is<br />
nog niet op de markt,<br />
al zijn de laatste test productie runs klaar.<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail<br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken. <br /><br />
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):<br />
<br />
=== Votes for a reseller ===<br />
{|border=1<br />
!Name<br />
!Trisoft<br />
!Open Source Nieuws Nederland<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (Subject to a solution for warranty)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[Special:Emailuser/User:PWerken|Peter van de Werken]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (note: I'll buy 2 Freerunners)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (If warranty is OK)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|'''Total'''<br />
|<br />
|10<br />
|}<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:<br />
Beste Yorick,<br />
<br />
Bedankt voor je mail en informatie; ik kende de toestellen niet, maar zou ze<br />
best eens van dichtbij willen bekijken. Het 'developer' model lijkt me dan<br />
echter weer minder interessant voor ons; het 'consumer' model zou eind 2008<br />
op de markt moeten komen?<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
With kind regards,<br />
<br />
Michael Brus<br />
Manager PDAshop<br />
<br />
<br />
Coolblue<br />
Molenbaan 11 . 2908 LL Capelle a/d IJssel . www.coolblue.nl<br />
<br />
Coolblue is...<br />
MP3shop.nl . PDAshop.nl . Digicamshop.nl . GPSshop.nl .<br />
Smartphoneshop.nl . Consoleshop.nl . Telefoonshop.nl . meer...<br />
<br />
Should I forward this to Michael Shiloh?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 07/05} I'll vote to wait until there are actually phones shipping, until that time, the more people we gather here, and maybe other dealers, the better the deal we get(I hope).<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 08/05} <br />
Well, I want to have the phone as soon as possible. The best deal ever isn't my main concern.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 13/05}<br />
I've been browsing the mailing list, and found [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/016971.html this post] from Openmoko's Steve. Group sales have 28 days of DOA (Dead On Arrival) coverage, and single sales have 14 days of DOA coverage. Which I think is reasonable. BTW, I don't think there will be a better deal than the $369 per phone for the 10-pack. <br /><br />
We currently have enough people to fill 2 10-packs, which is awesome! <br /><br />
What we do need to figure out are the import costs, and the shipping costs. (it's shipped via UPS, if I recall correctly from the mailing list.)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 22/05}<br />
<br />
I wouldn't be too sure that this is financially going to be the best deal. This message in the community mailing list (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017668.html) shows interesting info regarding Pulster.<br />
----<br />
''Christph Pulster wrote:<br />
''> about 10 pack orders - we try to be cheaper than the 10-order-<br />
''> pack-price ! so no need to collect ten local buyers.<br />
<br />
''This sounds so good...! I'm waiting for official news (and maybe infos<br />
about the gifts too)...''<br />
----<br />
'''I checked their webpage and they advertise with OpenMoko Freerunner 299 eur'''<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 22/05} I checked their website too and it says 'Sobald der Freerunner wirklich lieferbar ist, ist er an dieser Stelle mit konkretem Preis zu finden und real bestellbar.' Which could mean that the price will be something other than 299 euro.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I like the pulster deal a lot, even if they are the same price as buying the 10 pack in the US the warranty part is a lot better seeing Germany is next door to us. Only thing is that you would mis out on the pouch and headset, dunno if that's such a great loss. And they say they will be going under the price of the US 10 pack order if you order the 10 from them. So maybe a vote on yes or no to the pouch/headset deal? Maybe we should check if with Pulster a group order of 10+ will always give the discount. Like 22 will get the same discount and that we are not forced in getting groups of ten people.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I wrote an e-mail to pulster with the questions so I will post the answer here when I get one.<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 24/05} <br />
The pouch and headset are not that important IMO. I guess most join the group sale for convenience and reduce cost. But maybe I'm wrong.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
<br />
'''From the community mailing list again:<br />
<br />
'''Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote [to Pulster - Ed.]:<br />
''>> 1. Do you know when you'll be approximately able to define a price?<br />
''>> 2. The Freerunner will be shipped with extra goodies (generally<br />
''>> given only to people buying a 10-pack (ie: pouch and headset)?<br />
''> <br />
<br />
'''From Pulster [Ed.]<br />
<br />
''> Price fix ASAP I have the units in own hands/stocks.<br />
''> 299-319 eur is really realistic.<br />
''> <br />
''> All goodies included at PULSTER !<br />
''> <br />
''> Also can be bought a lot accessories extra very soon (debug board, pens, <br />
''> cases etc)<br />
''> <br />
''> you see, I will make all your wishes true :)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/05} Yeah, read that message in the weekend, no reply to my mail at this moment but seeing this message straight from pulster I would say that we should buy directly from pulster as a group. Warranty wise it's better as well.<br />
<br />
399 U.S. dollars is about 253 Euros and including VAT that would become 301.07 Euro so pulster with their price being 299 Euro (see below) has a good price and for 10 and more there is a discount just like in the US. I would propose to take the dutch group sale to Pulster.<br />
<br />
The following mail from Chis Pulster was on the list also.<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
I am Chris from pulster.eu - my hello to this great community.<br />
<br />
May I add some points from my side:<br />
<br />
- Freerunner - ready to order ASAP it is available. We do not<br />
take pre-orders of items we dont have in hands. For a one-time info- <br />
mail once the Freerunner is ready to order, please just email me <br />
mailto: christoph@pulster.de<br />
- we aim a Freerunner price tag of 299 EUR incl. VAT<br />
- shipping worldwide with DHL, Europa 15 EUR, World 30 EUR postage<br />
- soon we offer accessories for Freerunner like spare batterie, charger, <br />
Headset, pouch and also the debug-board<br />
- group-sales make local communities, that is wonderful. I am happy to <br />
sell Freerunner separately or in packages.<br />
<br />
Many thanks,<br />
Chris<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
Indeed let's take the dutch group sale to Pulster. We are with 22 so we should be able to make a good deal regarding the goodies. And in that way no-one has to take any financial risk.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 28/05} My guess is, that for a group buy at pulster there is still one entity needed for buying the devices. The thing is that with pulster, as with the US deal, the waranty should be per person and not named for the buying entity.<br />
<br />
:I don't think that we need to do the 'group buy' at Pulster. You can just buy the device at 299 a piece there. I would like to have the pouch though, if they can assure me that the pouch and other goodies would be included in the deal (because they of course could make a number of 'groupbuys' for the entire customer base), then count me in.--[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
:: Your absolutly right on this one, been thinking about it and the possible discount we would be getting would wasted on shipping within the Netherlands again. Like you said, if there are goodies involved it's a different deal of course :) . --[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
:::So let's start negotiating with Pulster regarding the goodies. We can bring in 22 customers, so he has something to win. It might be important to know whether Pulster takes credit card payments. I cannot find that option on their webpage and an electronic banktransfer will add another 15 (?) euro.[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
<br />
:::: Bank payments to germany are free of charge, at least for my bank (Rabobank).{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]]}<br />
<br />
:::: I'm afraid they don't accept credit cards (from their [http://www.pulster.de/engl/imprint.htm About Us page]:<br />
<br />
We do not accept any other payment option like PayPal, Reembourse/Cash-on-delivery (COD) payments, <br />
direct CreditCard payments, any kind of cheques, western union, postal money orders, cash. Please dont <br />
ask, we do not accept none of this options thanks to a very few but very expensive scams. <br />
<br />
:::: Nice double negative in there, btw. But still, 299+15 is less than 350 or 400. ;) --[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
::::: If it is going to be a group sale (if pulster provides the goodies) it would be (discounted price * 22 + transfer rate + (21 * shipping within Holland)) [[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
:::::: Are you assuming that we'd get a discounted price when we order in bulk? I have not seen any evidence that Pulster will lower the price even more, when done like that. But indeed, we'd have 22 * whatever-price-the-freerunner-will-get-at-Pulster + shipping costs... but then we are back at the discussion of how to deal with the warranty. Will Pulster give separate invoices for each of the phones in the pack? --[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 02/06} Okay I got an answer from Chris Pulster. I had 2 main questions that he answered and they were 1. Will the pouch and other goodies be included with a group sale as would be if we were to buy in the states. 2. Is a group sale, like in the states, limited to groups of ten or will the discount be for all phones bought in bulk. This is what he had to say:<br />
<br />
about your question: at the moment we dont know about pouch/headsets <br />
included or not. I will tell you a more reliable answer if Freerunners <br />
are in stocks.<br />
my discount system and sales are full flexibel (no ten-pack limitations)<br />
let us talk and we find a nice offer for the dutch OpenMoko community !<br />
<br />
<br />
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,<br />
Christoph Pulster<br />
<br />
We will have to take a look at what the discount will be and if it is worth it considering we will have extra shipping cost in holland.<br />
<br />
If the shipping costs will be too high, i would be willing to pick the phones up myself, if my expenses are covered. We have to figure out further distribution though. {[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 03/06}<br />
<br />
{[[User:Atilla|Atilla Filiz]] 19/06} Don't we have a chance for direct shipping from Taiwan? The phones are produced there anyway.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 20/06} We could but the problem would be that we would be buying it for consumer prices where Pulster buys a whole lot, and being a reseller pays a reseller price, or better yet a distributors price. So my bet is that we would be better of getting it from pulster than from Taiwan because that would not be much cheaper then getting it from the States.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Atilla|Atilla Filiz]] 22/06} Any news from Pulster or any other possible importer yet?<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/06} I got some news from Christoph just now but am waiting for permission to post it here, nothing earth chattering but just want his permission seeing it is a private e-mail. I'll keep you posted.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/06}<br />
<br />
Okay this is the e-mail Christopher from pulster.de wrote to me this afternoon:<br />
<br />
- our price of 299 EUR for Openmoko Freerunner is already rock-bottom, so we can not make further discounts, my apologises. What we can offer is free shipping <br />
worldwide if you order 10 units or more at once.<br />
<br />
- delivery time: same day money cleares we ship with registered and insured DHL airmail parcel. Transit time inside Europe is c.3 days, outside Europe 5 days.<br />
<br />
- customs: inside EU community there is no hassle with customs and no taxes/VAT will be added. Its all included our price of 299 eur. <br />
Outside EU community (Switzerland, Norway, USA, Asia) we will reduce German VAT giving a buying price of 249 EUR excl. VAT. Please note your local VAT will be added.<br />
<br />
- warranty: we give full 2 years warranty period. Please note, this is legal law for European business and compare it with own imports from Asia/USA.<br />
For warranty issues we are happy to include a separate invoice for each person of the GroupSale.<br />
<br />
- accessories included: its identical to the single unit order. Any other accessories (Cases/Headset etc.) can be ordered in our shop www.pulster.eu - we already have stocks.<br />
<br />
My first reaction was that seeing this it would be better to order as an individual because the only benefit of the free shipping would be lost because we would have to re-distribute it in Holland so that would add some shipping costs again. That's what I wrote to Chris and he replied that another benefit of a group order is that a group order has precedence before a shop sale. So My guess is ( and I hope to get that confirmed by Chris ASAP ) that if we as a group order at pulster.de before the shop opens, those phones will be reserved for us. When you order as an individual there is a chance you will miss out on the first batch and would have to wait until Chris gets another batch of phones.<br />
<br />
So my advice would be, if we want to get our hands on a Openmoko FreeRunner as one of the first in Holland we would need to buy as a group. Again, we, Open Source Nieuws Nederland, are willing to be the mediator. The price would be the Euro 299 plus shipping costs within Holland and the money needs to be in our bank account before we pay pulster.de we can not afford to pay in advance. How do we communicate? Should I open an e-mail adres fot this? Do any of you want to do the group thing with pulster, or buy as an individual or take your money to the states?<br />
<br />
SeeYa,<br />
Michel<br />
<br />
{[[User:nicolas|Nico Veenkamp]] 26/06}. I am willing to group my order together with the rest using Open Source Nieuws Nederland as intermediate. Specifically to have the priority advantage of the group order mentioned by Michel to get my hands as soon as possible on the Neo FreeRunner. I would suggest to Michel to put order details on this page and open a specific email adres to receive orders.<br />
<br />
I'm also in on that groupsale. Too bad it doesn't include the goodie bag, but that doesn't matter much. :) I'd suggest setting up an email address. You do need address details from the participants. :) <br /> Or do you prefer to set a date on which the Neos are handed to everyone in person? :) <br /> [ [[User:Madjo|MadJo]] 08:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC) ]<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/06}Count me in on the group sale too. My main interest is to get the neo as soon as possible and to have an individual tax receipt. Is that possible when i join in on the group sale?<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/06} Okay, The following will happen. I will try and mail everyone on the group sale page (as long as people are using a registered username with e-mail address) and this talk page (when not on the group sale page) with the specifics, I will also mail to the community mail list with that message. Keep in mind, this will all take some time because first we need to give people a chance to "sign up", then to transfer money and then for us to transfer all that money to pulster. Then (when pulster has the money) the phones will be send to us and then they will be send to the people. So do not expect them to be with you within a few days after making the money transfer to us, if you want that then try your luck by buying it on your own and hope that there will enough in stock at pulster.de before you get there.<br />
<br />
We will be sending the phones with insured postage, this will put an extra Euro 7,95 on top of the Pulster.de price of Euro 299. It could be we have to do some extra wrapping, I'm waiting for an answer on that part by Pulster. We still need 10 or more buyers so if that number is not reached it is everyone for his/her self.<br />
<br />
Maybe we need to put something on the group sale page?<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/06} Is it possible to verify at Pulster if they put individual receipts with the phones, or they just send one for the whole group?<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/06} To quote from the above mentioned mail from Pulster.de "For warranty issues we are happy to include a separate invoice for each person of the GroupSale" So that's okay.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 27/06} According to messages on the community list Pulster will start shipping on the 4th of July, we probably should have our order in before that, otherwise were better of just ordering on our own. The savings has been reduced to around EUR 8,- on shipping. I'm not sure that alone makes it worth the hassle, and they are taking orders right now...<br />
<br />
([[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/06} I'm not sure what to do right now... We're at 29 of 30 now, but I am really tempted to pre-order now... Any advice we can give each other?<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 27/06} To be honest, I think anyone who wants it asap should just order it from pulster. The benefits of a group purchase there are just 8,- and it will take time to get it all setup and to get the distribution done. <br />
A group order may just be worthwhile when getting 10packs from the states, the cost will be roughly the same, but it will include the goodies (and loose the warranty), maybe there are 10 people who consider that worth the effort.<br />
Unless someone convinces me to do otherwise I will just place my own order with pulster by the end of today...<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 27/06} Okay, my thoughts exactly, after reading the message in te mailing list today from Christohper and thinking about it and reading your remarks, I have to agree. Organizing all this including transfering the money to our account and then the rest of the process, you are better of ordering dirct from Pulster, and the fact that you can order extra's as well. So as far as I'm concerned the group sale is of and I would advice everyone to order at pulster.de<br />
<br />
So I will NOT be sending out e-mails today to organize all of this. It's everyone for his/her self. :) Start ordering. :) Maybe a message stating this should be put on the group sale page?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Atilla|Atilla Filiz]] 27/06} The resellers have started to ship and some even finished their first stocks. If there is a group already formed, count me in. Otherwise, it seems it's best as "every gentleman for himself".<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 27/06} I just placed an individual order at Pulster.de, so i won't be joining you one the group sale. I'm trying to get the phone before the 12th of july, so i'm in a bit of a hurry.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 27/06} I put an order in with Pulster as well this afternoon. The price is right.<br />
<br />
== Canada ==<br />
==== GTA (Toronto) ====<br />
{ --[[User:Argo|Argo]] 03:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC) }<br />
For group 1 it looks like they have actually gotten the 10 orders in? or am I them adding up wrong?<br />
<br />
== Croatia ==<br />
{--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 14:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)} '''ja ne bih da već sada radimo pan-balkansku grupu, iskreno sam iznenađen odazivom do sada, pa jedino možda ako ne skupimo dovoljno ljudi do kraja ovog tjedna...'''<br />
<br />
moj post sa hr.comp.os.linux upućen mnalisu;<br />
<br />
> BTW, ti si zapravo kontaktirao HULK i rekli su ti da bi to oni isli raditi i<br />
<br />
> gnjaviti se sa svim tim, ili ih cisto spominjes onako u smislu "pa oni su<br />
<br />
> dragi ljudi, sigurno ce besplatno uloziti mjesece svog zivota u to u zamjenu<br />
<br />
> za pivu" ?<br />
<br />
Davio sam ih malo zadnja dva dana na IRCu, i prema logu načelno su za<br />
da se narudžbe hendlaju preko njih. A i mislim da se ipak ne radi o<br />
mjesecima života bačenih za pivu, more like možda 2-3 sata za gajbu<br />
ili dvije :), hell ako je toliko teško napravit ću ja sve, učlanit se<br />
u HULK ako treba<br />
<br />
ali do toga trenutka ovako ja razmišljam:<br />
<br />
1.) skupimo 10 zainteresiranih<br />
2.) ja nazovem carinu i agenciju za telekomunikacije<br />
3.) pitamo openmoko za shipping estimate<br />
4.) ako su svi i dalje za, skupljanje sredstava i na kraju narudžba<br />
<br />
dakle ništa nije obligatory, idemo step by step, onog trenutka kada se<br />
prijavi 10 ljudi na wikiju ja zovem nadležne službe, pa ćemo vidit di<br />
stojimo sa uvozom i tim''<br />
<br />
nemoj odmah "worst case scenario" :)<br />
<br />
>> mozda da se malo na elitesecurity.org pokrene rasprava?<br />
<br />
--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 10:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC) svakako, ja sam za<br />
<br />
== Czech Republic ==<br />
Distribuční seznam, základní informace naleznete v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Czech_Republic GroupSales]<br />
<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Diskuze Diskuze]<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Dopl.C5.88uj.C3.ADc.C3.AD_informace Doplňující informace]<br />
<br />
=== Diskuze ===<br />
''Martin Holec''> Máme tu 4x ze Zlína, co kdyby někdo jel do Brna pro 4ks a ve Zlíně by se rozdělili?<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> jak jsem psal, já do Zlína jezdívám, a od května do září budu ve Zlíně velmi často, takže se Zlínem není vůbec problém.<br />
<br />
Jinak už se objevily nějaké termíny. Jestli jsem to dobře pochopil, tak 9.5. by už mohla začít masová výroba a brzy na to by měl začít prodej...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak by měl vlastně vypadat? Takový ten bíly se mně moc nelíbí. Radši bych měl [http://http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:FIC-neo1973_small.jpg černý].<br />
<br />
''Michal Pěnka''> Protože jsem jedenáctý a nevím, jestli bude možné objednat 11 kusů nebo jen po desítkách, domluvím se s Tomem Vargou později (jestli by byl ochotný pro převoz do Prahy), každopádně bych také raději ten černý.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak to tak tady pročítám tak to půjde objednat za zvýhodněnou cenu (+pytlík? a headset) opravdu jenom po desítkách. Ale IMHO když této stránce zvedneme popularitu (případně přiberem Slováky) tak jich budem nakonec brát minimálně dvacet ;) Mně osobně připadá datum 9.5. hodně optimistické.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> FreeRunner bude pouze v jedné barevné variantě, a to černý. To datum 9.5. mám [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates odsud]<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>Nemáte někdo fotku freerunnera ? na wiki jsem zatím našel jenom fotky GTA1-čky<br />
<br />
''David Kozub''>> Jelikoz se vyskytuju ve Zline i v Praze, muzu zajistit prevoz do Prahy.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No tak například tady to máš dokonce na videu: http://youtube.com/watch?v=k9QLdK6pFCI ;-) Ale jinak i na wiki se povalují fotky FreeRunnera. Například hned ta první na hlavní stránce ;-)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> To video je parádní. Co se týče té fotky z úvodu wiki, myslel jsem, že je to jenom render. Jinak jak jsem tak bloudil po stránkách české pošty - nejlevněj to nejspíš vyjde poslat jako profibalík za myslím že 64korun. Za dobírku se něco ještě připlácí. Balík je pojištěný do 100 000. [http://www.cpost.cz:80/jetspeed/portal/media-type/html/user/anon/page/default.psml/js_pane/sluzbyonline%2Czasilky?docid=370&calc_lb0=10424&calc_cb0=1 více zde]<br />
<br />
ad. '''Praha (Čechy):'''<br />
<br />
''Tom Varga''>> Pokoušel jsem se vyčíst z mailing listu, jak je to s tou množstevní slevou - co jsem z toho pochopil, tak by neměl být problém objednat množství nedělitené desíti, ale ty kusy navíc jsou pak [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016432.html bez slevy] a [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016202.html bez bonusu]; pořád by se to ale vyplatilo skrze poštovné. Prozatím bych navrhl, aby se zájemci z Prahy (Čech) zapsali / potvrdili smazáním otazníku v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu], možná něco podobného pro Slovensko - momentálně to vypadá, že bude snazší sehnat 20 zájemců celkem a taky by se tím mohla situace trochu vyjasnit. Osobně jsem schopen zajistit dovoz z Brna do Prahy, Liberce, Jablonce n.N. a přilehlých končin. Případné návrhy sem ;)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>> Řekl bych že čím větší balík poletí za Ameriky sem tím levněj to vyjde. Pokud není poštovné na gramy. 20-ti zájemců se určitě dočkáme. Když počítám Františka Horínka z Bratislavy tak je nás 18. Co se týče bonusů na headsetu moc nelpím ale ten pytel by se mně vážně hodil. Často v kapse kombinuju mobil a klíče nebo šroubovák...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>> Poštovné samozřejmě není na gramy, ale na libry, neboli každých započatých 0.45 kg se platí, plus se poštovné započítává do cla, mimochodem taková zásilka asi jen tak přes celnici neprojde, takže je možné, že nikdo (příjemce) bude muset dodat na celnici případné dokumenty dokladující hodnotu zasílaného zboží.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>> Tak dle "platného" celního sazebníku by se clo nemělo platit. Viz [http://disk.jabbim.cz/ivir@jabbim.com/celni_sazebnik.pdf Sazebník] strana 568. Tedy by se hradilo pouze DPH. Aspoň si myslím, že 20 telefonů jako "dárek" asi neprojde.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>>> No tím lépe, ale tak já to beztak myslel jako celý celní dluh a to dph je právě i z poštovného.<br />
<br />
''Miloslav Machotka''> Koukám že jsem trochu zaspal dění. :) V [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu] jsem se připsal k Praze. Mám to nejblíž, jsem z Vlašimi, ale jinak jsem pro to schopen dojet i do Brna. Jsem pro to aby se to vyřešilo, pokud možno, po desítkách a pak to rozvést (rozeslat) po Čechách a Slovensku. Bonusy se asi většině lidí hodí.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>>>>> DPH musíme taky platit ?? To je mrzuté. Kolik mají DPH slováci ? nevyšlo by to levněj poslat do Bratislavy a stama ''"propašovat"'' k nám ? Když už máme ten šengen... Nevrátí nám třeba amíci DPH které za to zaplatili u nich ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>>>>> Co je mi známo, tak při obchodování mimo zemi se DPH neúčtuje a účtuje se až v cílové zemi. Dle rok starého článku na měšci je základní sazba stejná, tj. 19%. Od DPH by to šlo odprostit pouze pokud by na tom balíku bylo napsáno, že se jedná o dárek. Pak se na to daň neuplatní. Jakmile se mi povede najít ustanovení/článek, tak jsem dám odkaz.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No ono je stále ještě otázkou, odkud to vůbec budou posílat. Protože sem někde viděl informace, že se budou snažit zásobovat Evropu z nějakého centra v Evropě. O tom dárku jsem taky slyšel, ale prej to taky není zaručený způsob. Celníci se do toho můžou podívat, a uvalit na to daň podle vlastního rozhodnutí (prej). Jinak ale je tu ještě možnost, že by nám to někdo dovezl. Nevíte jak to funguje v tom případě?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>To centrum v Evropě bylo v plánu avšak levněji jim to vyjde posílání z Ameriky, takže bude k dispozici jen jedno centrum v USA. Ohledně toho dárku jsem doposud četl, že jeho částka nesmí přesáhnout 55€, jinak je normálně proclíván. Při osobním převozu jsou nastaveny limity výše viz [http://www.celnisprava.cz/CmsGrc/Cestovani-a-nakupy/Jak-se-chovat/mimo-eu.htm celní správa].<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Kdyby vezl dva tři tak by možná ukecal že je to dárek ale dvacet... clo vem čert to bude nanejvýš 3,5% což není taková pálka. Spíš kdy se to DPH z toho platí ? Hned na celnici nebo musím podat něco jako daňové přiznání ?<br />
* No tak zatím jsem zjistil že nejspíš jediná šance jak se osvobodit od cla a DPH je že všeci sedem do letadla a zajedem si pro to. Limit je 6000kč na jednu osobu starší 15-ti let.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mares''>>>> Clo se na tento druh zboží nevztahuje. Platí se pouze české DPH, který ti celníci vyměří z ''ceny zboží + doprava + clo'', pak ti v případě fyzické osoby zašlou na tvou poštu, kde uhradíš DPH jako dobírku. U podnikatele je to trošku jiné. VAT (čili americké DPH) na zboží nebude uvaleno, jelikož zboží je vyváženo z USA.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No a dá se tohle spočítat předem? Abysme mohli stanovit cenu?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> No dokud nebude jasne kolik bude stat postovne (typ + vaha) a jaky bude kurs dolaru, tak presna cena asi tezko.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>No co. Tak ti každý pošlem sedm tisíc s tím, že potom přebytky rozdělíš do obálek a budeš předávat s každým telefonem obálku. Jinak to asi dost dobře nepůjde. Jedině že by nám to sem dopravila česká pobočka FIC-u/foxconn. Ale to je podle mně nepravděpodobné.<br />
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''Michal Bořek''>>>JJ take myslim, ze bych dal predbeznou cenu 7K s tim, ze uz je poslem, at muzes pruzne zareagovat a ne pak cekat az vsichni poslou.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''>>>> Kdyby se zase Steve nebo někdo vyjádřil v jakém je to stavu a přidal předběžný odhad kdy se začne prodávat. Teďka je to těžko. Můžou ho vydat zítra ale taky třeba i za půl roku pokud se objeví nějaký složitý problém.<br />
Ještě k té předběžné ceně - dolar není za 15 korun ale za 16,1-16,2 korun I s DPH se do těch 7000 nespíš nevejdem. Jestli že se domluvíme žo začnem posílat peníze tak navrhuju posílat 7500. IMHO dolar už níž nepůjde.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Co jsem se zatím díval na možnosti přepravy (DHL,Fedex,UPS,USPS), tak nejvýhodněji vychází USPS ([http://www.usps.com/ usps.com]), kdy se pohybujeme kolem částky 120$ i s pojištěním (kdyby to bylo cca 10kg což pochybuji). Bohužel maximální pojištění činí 5 000$, přičemž celková částka balíku vychází na cca 7 580$ . U ostatních jsem ohledně pojištění nenašel zmínku, přičemž poštovné vycházelo většinou přes 500$. Z pohledu pojištění by bylo vhodné objednávky rozdělit. Ještě bude záležet jaké poštovní služby nabídnou v e-shopu. Včera u ČSOB byla prodejní cena dolaru na 16,44Kč/$ a musím bohužel souhlasit, že lepší to už nebude. Jinak ceník je k dispozici na této adrese [http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781 http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781] .<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''> Teď mně napadlo - co kdyby jsem někde založili učet (nejlépe spořící) v dolarech a poslali to tam teď ? [http://www.mesec.cz/clanky/ucet-v-cizi-mene-ano-ale-kde/] Kdyby tak člověk věděl že pozítru neoznámí prodej...<br />
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''Michal Bořek''>>>>> Tak urcite bych pockal s placenim na nejake jistejsi vyjadreni, ale necekal bych na otevreni kramu, tehdy uz by chtelo, aby se to dalo hned objednat, co se tyka uctu neverim, ze dolar spadne, ale ani ze poroste a tak bych to neresil.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Vzhledem k množství objednávaného zboží bych možná už využil dopravních společností, které za nás provedou celní odbavení. Aspoň metodický pokyny k vyplnění JSD (jednotný správní doklad) nejsou triviální a zabere to minimálně půlden. Ukázku dokumentu jsme nalezl zde: [http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/ http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/].<br />
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''Michal Bořek''>> Dole v tom dopisu z celního úřadu se píše: "který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost" to nikdo z nás má?<br />
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''Michal Bořek'' >> '''[http://www.trisoft.de/en_freerunner.htm Evropský Distributor]''', ale je celkem dražší.<br />
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''Radek Machulka'' > Což o to, [http://www.pulster.de/ tady] je o 50 euro levnější, ale nemyslím si, že to bude ve výsledku výhodnější.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''>>> Co jsem se díval do pokynů, tak to může vyplnit i fyzická osoba, jelikož každý způsobilý občan může provést obchodní činnost. Pouze nesmí být opakovaného rázu, tj. jednorázové obchody. Zkusím se tedy dotázat konkrétněji na tuto část. Ohledně toho evropského distributora nevím. Odhadem to vychází přes 1000 Kč dráž bez poštovného a bez bonusů. Jestliže se nám poradí vyřešit problém s celním úřadem, tak bych spíše volil objednávku z USA. Připadá mi, že tyhle obchody to jen objednají v USA, přijmou a přepošlou s přirážkou.<br />
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''Michal Bořek'' >>>> Take jsem pro USA, jen sem to nasel a ac ten od Radka Machulky je uz zajimavejsi tak verim, ze se dostanem i pod nej a jeste je tam ten obal a sluchatka.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''> Já jsem též pro USA. Ještě by bylo možné (teoreticky) zkusit si to objednat přes nějakého (mešího) obchodníka co bere věci od FIC-u<br />
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''Michal Bořek''> Tož sem [[GroupSales#Aktu.C3.A1ln.C4.9B|vyhlásil konkurz]] na koordinátora pražské větve a snad se najde někdo kdo je schopen se vejít do těch zásadních bodů co jsem tam nastínil.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Relativně požadavky splňuji. Mám studentský ČSOB účet mající limit na 1,5M, kartu Visa Classic, angličtinu zvládám na úrovni čtení technické dokumentace, bydlím na Barrandově a jabber též mám (ivir@jabbim.com). Jen tu důvěryhodnost nemám. :) S tím clem to bude ještě zajímavé, ale snad mi ohledně toho ještě poradí z celního úřadu. V nouzi mám k dispozici i OSVČ. :)<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Dle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017531.html příspěvku] bude dovoz zboží do USA zahájen někdy 1.června. K tomu je nutné připočítat min. týden až 3 než zboží dorazí do skladů. Z příspěvku teoreticky vyplývá, že bude i evropský HUB. Snad to bude za stejnou částku a s bonusy. :)<br />
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''Michal Bořek''>Podle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017607.html příspěvku] by měl webový shop odkazovat na us i eu a to vypadá čím dál nadějnějš co se týká poštovného aj cla.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' jestli to dobře překládám tak není jasné jakým způsobem to půjde z činy - jestli lodí nebo letadlem ?<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Ano, aspoň takto jsem to pochopil i já. Problémem je ta doba dodání. Jinak co se týká vyřízení JSD (cla), tak u zprostředkovatele [http://www.kama-eu.cz/ KAMA s.r.o.>, jež mi doporučil celní úřad, vychází na cca 1000 Kč viz ceník, což mi připadá přijatelné.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''> No mně ty informace od Steva přijdou vždycky nějaké zmatené. Nevědí jestli lodí nebo letadlem, ale odejít by to snad mělo až 1.6. (nebo co má znamenat to datum, v jeho zprávě), takže to ještě docela potrvá... :-(<br />
Jan Mareš: můžeš prosím popsat co přesně má být těch 1000Kč a jak se na to přijde? Já tomu pořád nějak nerozumím...<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''>> <font color="gray">best case is I would start to test phones around the first of june. Then<br />
pack and ship.<br />
</font>1.6. začíná testovat telefony a potm je balit a odesílat.<br><br />
<font color=gray>The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically you<br />
build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy% pass the test, and the factory says.<br />
"good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on the<br />
test software, because that bad phone really was good." arrg.</font> Ale toto nějak moc nechápu.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Vychází to takto: 250 Kč (vypracování JSD), 30 Kč (vypracování hodnoty), 250 Kč (jednani za deklaranta), 30 Kč (avízo) a pak asi ručení (350). Je to můj odhad a po konkrétním dotaze by měli sdělit částku. Asi tedy bude třeba připočítat poštovné (250 Kč). Zatím jsem jim napsal dotaz ohledně nepodnikající osoby s tímto množstvím, tak jsem zvědav kdy odpoví.<br />
Tu další část považuji za povzdychnutí, kdy jim vyrobili více telefonů z nichž jen část prošla a továrna chce tohle číslo minimalizovat a že dané chyby byly spíše SW povahy.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' Podle toho co píšeš bych řekl že by vyšlo levněj kdyby jsme brali všechny telefony dohromady.Jaké má výhody osamostatnění Prahy ?<br />
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''Michal Bořek'' No nedokazeme pojistit 30telefonu na jejich cenu pri doprave, ale jinak pokud by to clo vyrizovala firma asi by to bylo vyhodnejsi.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Trochu mě znepokojují zprávy v community e-mail archivu, kde uvádějí, že openmoko e-shop využívá služeb UPS. U nich by nebyl problém s pojištěním, ale ty ceny. Cena je de facto konstantní na cca 600$ (při 10kg balíčku), takže pak by bylo vhodné objednávku shrnout dohromady. Pak by to vycházelo o cca 10$ na hlavu více. Snažím se přesvědčit otce jako OSVČ, že by byla objednávka napsaná na něj a tím pádem by odpadl problém s využitím výše uvedené společnosti od nichž jsem dostal zamítavé stanovisko ohledně "neobchodní zásilky".<br />
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Pak už zbývá využít evropského distributora Pulster.de . Teoreticky mi vychází částka při dovozu z US na 7600 Kč a u Pulsteru na 7 660Kč bez poštovné. Avšak za předpokladu společné hromadné objednávky. V opačném případě je nutné připočíst u US objednávky cca tisícovku (při 10 lidech).<br />
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Zapomněl jsem tedy dodat, že zboží by bylo v republice za 4-5 dnů + pár dnů na vyřízení celního řízení.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''> veškeré spekulace jsou zatím velmi předběžné, protože ani sami prodejci ještě nemají jasno, za jakých podmínek budou FreeRunner prodávat. Každopádně Pulster se mi docela zamlouvá (viz níže), vypadá že s panem majitelem se dá rozumně domluvit. Asi mu řeknu že objednávám telefonů 40, aby byl kdyžtak ochoten větší slevy nebo nějakého zvýhodnění a nechám tu zásilku jenom rozdělit a poslat do Prahy a sobě... Ale jak říkám, pořád ještě je všechno předběžné, definitivně se rozhodne asi už během tohoto měsíce.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''> Ještě jedna novinka: pan Christoph Pulster z pulster.de mně oznámil zahájení prodeje debug boardu za "lidovou" cenu 149€ což je docela rozdíl oproti 99$... Takže jak říkám, všechno jsou teď jenom teoretické úvahy jak objednávku zorganizovat. Ikdyž osobně dávám pulster.de naděje, myslím, že se na ceně jak debugboardu, tak telefonu, bude dát domluvit, stejně jako nulová cena za dopravu zní přijatelně :-)<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''> Pražáků je docela nešťastý počet. Jediné co mně napadá je pokusit se domluvit s Plusterem že by vzal 4 desítky z toho nám přeposlal těch 34 a zbytek by si nechal a prodal. A taky chci poděkovat Martinu Šenkeříkovi za to že se o nás tak stará.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''>Tak je otázkou jak vlastně Pulster bude fungovat. Jako evropský distributor by měl od openmoko odbržet třeba 500ks (na dluh), které pak prodává. Z tohoto pohledu je jedno jaký počet telefonů se objedná. Pochybuji, že ta distribuce je založena na tom, že mi mu zaplatíme a on to objedná z US skladu. Pak by se určitě lépe hodil nákup přímo z US, kdy skrze UPS by se vyřídily všechny formality s celním úřadem. Rozhodující je konečná cena u Pulsteru.<br />
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''Radek Machulka'' > Tak to vypada, ze si budeme moci vybrat: [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-June/019117.html list]<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Žel s ohledem na co nejnižší cenu jsou oba distributori mimo hru, kdy se pohybujeme s cenou kolem 8 700Kč, což je hnedle o tisícikorunu více než při objednání z US. Doufejme, že Pulster nahodí lepší cenu.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' > To je mrzuté. Vypadá to, že se všichni distributoři rozhodli, že si na tom namastí kapsu a spoléhají na to, že nic podobného neexistuje a že je to novinka...<br />
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''Michal Bořek'' >> Podle té dvojnásobné ceny debug boardu se dá soudit, že nám nic jiného než US nezbude,tyhle EU distributoři jsou fakt jen zlatokopové.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Doufám že je amíci nezančou dorovnávat.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík'' > Jak jsem už několikrát psal, na jakékoliv spekulace je pořád brzo, situace se stále vyvíjí -> pulster dnes debugboard oficiálně slevnil na 99€. Takže ještě pořád není rozhodnuto. Prostě počkáme s čím kdo přijde (případně distributory trošku nakopnu sám :-)). "Amíci" je rozhodně dorovnávat nezačnou, když od "amíků" to ti Evropští distributoři objednávají ;-)<br />
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''Miloslav Machotka'' > K diskuzi o zvolení prodejce. Já jsem určitě pro Pulster. Cena je myslím dobrá a hlavně to ušetří Martinu Šenkeříkovi práci, které s náma má i tak dost. A pokud jsem to správně pochopil, řeší to i problém s počtem telefonů nedělitelným deseti. Všichni dostanou za svoje peníze totéž.<br />
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''František Horínek'' > Veľmi si vážim to, čo pre nás Martin Šenkeřík robí ale mam pocit, že 299€ je viac ako $399 a potom sa stráca akákoľvek zľava. Neviete niekto koľko by stála doprava z USA?<br />
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''Miloslav Machotka'' >> Podle dnešního kurzu to vychází následovně. 299€ = 7240 kč. 369$ = 5777kč * 1,19 DPH = 6875 kč. A to v tom nemáte dopravu a tu práci s vyřizováním. Nabídka Pulsteru mi přijde jako výhodná.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík'' >> Ok, myslel jsem že je to tu někde sepsané, ale radši to připomenu: 299€ (cca 7300Kč) je definitivní cena, to je cifra kterou dá každý z nás za telefon v případě objednávky od Pulstera. <br />
Naopak cena 369$ (cca 5830Kč) není ani zdaleka konečná. Připočítáme daň 19% a dostaneme se na cca 7000Kč. Stále ještě zbývá připočítat clo a poštovné (aspoň doufám, že jsem správně pochopil, co se podařilo zjistit ostatním). A to nepočítám pravděpodobné papírování a obíhání úřadů (ikdyž někdo myslím psal, že UPS to všechno řeší sama). Když už ne levněji, tak to vyjde minimálně na stejno... Kdyžtak mě doplňte/opravte, kdo se těmi cly zabýval hlouběji.<br />
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''Jan Mareš'' > Hezky shrnuto. UPS veškeré papírování ohledně DPH a cla řeší. Telefony spadají do 0% cla, takže se platí jen DPH, které je však vypočítávané i s dopravou, která je je celkem vysoká, aspoň při vypůjčení odhadů od Švýcarů, tj. 3kg za 10 telefonů, tak poštovné bude činit přes 10 000Kč. Takže to vychází nastejno či díky klesajícímu euru i výhodněji. Navíc plusem je 2letá záruka, naproti jednoleté z US.<br />
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''František Horínek'' >> Ďakujem za objasnenie na DPH som úplne zabudol. Máte pravdu je to výhodné<br />
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''Luboš Podrázský'' >> Zdravím, tak jsem taky pro Pulster.de. Cena vyjde víceméně nastejno, méně starostí pro organizátory, delší záruka a jestli se tím vyřeší i počet kusů nedělitelný 10-ti, tak asi neni co řešit.<br />
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''Michal Pěnka'' > Podle všech informací tady a na hlavní stránce groupsales se také přikláním k pulster. Dvouletá záruka není zanedbatelná. Už se těším :)<br />
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''Karel Volný'' > Pokud od Pulster dostaneme totéž, jako bychom dostali z USA, tak těch případných pár korun navíc klidně obětuju ve prospěch jednodušší organizace.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' > jestli jsem dobře pochopil zprávu na [[Community Updates]] tak by se 4.Července mělo začít prodávat. (...) Jak vůbec bude probíhat potenciální vyřizování reklamace ? Já teda doufám že při prvních kusech budou číňani odpočatí a budou dělat kvalitně, ale při mém štěstí úplně vidím jak to zapnu a ono to zasmrdí...<br />
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''Radek Machulka'' > Co se týče objednávky, já osobně bych počkal na zahájení prodeje, t.j. na dobu, kdy bude jasné kdo a za jakých podmínek bude FR prodávat. Je pochopitelné, že Pulster.de nemůže potvrdit konečnou cenu, protože si ji víceméně vycucal z prstu.<br />
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''Jan Mareš'' > Pulster předobjednávky nebere, tady jde spíše o stanovení částky, kterou Martin bude vybírat, aby se vracely jen drobné. Jde o urychlení objednávky, aby na nás vyšli ty univerzální stylusy. :) Ještě je nutné připočíst cca 3 dny na převod peněz na jejich účet. Ohledně té reklamace, tak při tomto způsobu objednání je nutné reklamované zboží zaslat do Pulsteru, kde bude reklamace vyřizována. Šlo by to přímo u FICu, ale české zastoupení prochází převzetím, viz vyjádření níže. Co jsem doposud zachytil, tak všechny FR jsou před balením testovány na funkčnost, takže může dojít k poškození jedině při přepravě, což bychom měli zachytit při přebírání zboží v Brně. Dle dostupných fotek balení jsou FR bytelně baleni, takže ani toto by nemělo hrozit.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' >> Jasně že dělají všecko proto aby byl počet reklamací co nejnižší, konec konců šetří tak peníze sami sobě, ale jsou věci které se dost dobře odzkoušet nedají. Naštěstí FR nemá žádné klouby nebo kryty které by se časem mohly rozpadnout takže mi snad vydrží aspoň 5 let. (...) není jedno jestli se vrací 5korun nebo pětistovka ?<br />
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''Radek Machulka'' > Já spíš tlumil to nadšení z pulster.de jako nejvýhodnějšího prodejce. Taky si nemyslím, že by nějaký prodejce byl potenciálně vhodnější z pohledu uplatňování případných reklamací.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' >> Tak pluster láká dvouletou zárukou.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' >> Jestli to s Plusterem bude fungovat tak, že pošlu 7500 (tj 300EUR) a dostanu za to FR tak, sice nerad, ale oželím i ten obal. Ono z USA to nejspíš stejně nevyjde o moc levněj. Jestli vůbec. Pokud vezmu 369USD s kurzem 16Kč a k tomu 19% DPH tak jmse rázem na sedmi tisících a to jsme ještě nezaplatili poštovné, na které se to DPH taky vzathuje, + přpadné poplatky za bůhví co.<br />
Já jsem pro pluster.<br />
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''Vojtěch Vozáb'' >> Asi bych taky byl pro pulster, protože dokud napevno neurčí cenu tak objednávka není závazná (opravte mě jestli se pletu), takže kdyby nějak zásadně zdražil, může se přinejhorším objednávka zrušit a objednat z Ameriky. Hlavně by bylo dobré vyřešit to rychle, pro mě je poslední termín kdy můžu zaplatit ve čtvrtek 26. června a pak až 4. července, mezi tím jsem pryč. To by sice mohlo stačit, protože prodej imho stejně dříve než 4. nezačne, ale bylo by samozřejmě lepší mít jistotu a shromáždit peníze v předstihu.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík'' > S Vojtou jsme to pořešili. A teď abysme zabili nějaký čas, než dorazí telefony k distributorům, bych se vás chtěl zeptat, jestli vám stačí, když číslo účtu pak pošlu mailem, hodím na svůj server a napíšu na wiki? Jestli se to někomu zdá málo bezpečné, navrhněte prosím lepší způsob.<br />
<br />
''František Horínek'' > Ja si osobne myslím, že mail podpísaný pgp-čkom určite nič nepokazíte. Tiež by nebolo zle hodiť to na osobný server z SSL a rozdistribuovať fingerprint certifikátu. Možno ešte spraviť SHA a/alebo MD5 sumy čísla účtu/IP adresy servera. Hashe a fingerprinty rozosielať iba mejlom. Možno spraviť IRC server na ktorý sa bude dať dostať iba cez VPN/SSH z overovaním kľúča. Samotná komunikácia môže prebiehať v nejakej klasickej šifre napr. Vernamova šifra, ktorá je doteraz považovaná bez klúča za neprelomitelnú. Ale to už je moc veľa paranoje, či nie? :-)<br />
<br />
''František Horínek'' > teraz ma napadlo, že by sa dali použiť slová z mejlov, keď ste si kontrolovali naše adresy z distribučnej siete, na prístup na v osobný server, Server by sa potom autentifikoval inou časťou mejlu, potom by sa zobrazilo číslo účtu. Tieto texty by potencionálny útočník nemal ako získať.<br />
<br />
Napr 1-3 slovo z prvého odstavca mejlu<br />
<br />
ssh/https: zadajte 1-3 slovo z 1 odstavca mejlu<br />
zadám: "Dnes bylo oficialne"<br />
odpove: 4-5 slovo 1 odstavec "potvrzeno zahajeni"; čislo účtu je 123456789<br />
<br />
tým pádom získam informáciu ktorá je adresovaná len pre oúzky kruh ľudí a ja viem, že tá informácia nie je podvodná.<br />
<br />
Len preto, že som paranoidný neznamená, že ma nesledujú. Idú po mne. :-D<br />
<br />
'' Martin Šenkeřík '' > Uf... No problém je jeden, právě mně dorazil email z Pulster s exkluzivní nabídkou: dorazila mu první zásilka telefonů, obchod ještě neotevírá, ale nám už to nabízí ke koupi. Tzn. můžeme začít vybírat peníze, cenu 299€ potvrdil. Bližší info zveřejním za chvíli. A já už takovou ověřovací aplikaci nestihnu implementovat. Můžeme ještě využít jabber ohin@jabbim.cz - někteří lidé se mnou už komunikovali, takže potvrdí že za ním jsem opravdu já. A můžu pro největší paranoiky odpovědět libovolné otázky. Příp. mám v profilu vyplněn i telefon na sebe.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >> Pokud mám číslo účtu někoho - jak mu s tím můžu ublížit? Já bych to s tím zabezpečování nepřeháněl. Už jenom proto že posílám nemalý peníz na účet člověka, kterého jsem nikdy neviděl. Rozešli mailem variabilní symboly nebo něco podobného ať naše platby můžeš identifikovat. a nebo ti můžeme do zprávy pro příjemce napsat každý svoje jméno.<br />
<br />
''Milan Šedý'' >> Taky myslím, že nemusíme být až tak paranoidní. Na identifikaci stačí podle mě zpráva pro příjemce se jménem.<br />
<br />
''Jan Černý'' >> Jestli jsem správně pochopil ten email od Pulstera, tak se všechno příslušenství včetně obalu a headsetu musí objednat zvlášť. Jak se to bude zařizovat?<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>> No já to mám zařízené tak, že obal mně ušije ségra na narozky a bez headsetu se obejdu.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''>>>> hehe, tak když už bude v tom, tak to by mohla ušít pro všechny ;-) Jinak informace k objednávání příslušenství jsou na wiki.<br />
<br />
''Tomáš Sirný'' >>>> tak pozeram ze sme este dopadli dobre [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner tu] predavaju za 349 Eur a navyse je iba obal.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>>> no tak k tomu sestřičku asi nepřesvědčím ;) nic méně jako obal yb se myslím dal použít sášek na brýle. prodávájí se všude možně, stojí kolem 30-ti korun a jsou kvalitní a celkem pěkné. Tak jsem to trošku měřil nejspíš se tam FR vejde.<br />
<br />
=== Doplňující informace ===<br />
* '''Vyjádření Pulster.de na objednávku většího množství telefonů:'''<br />
Hello,<br />
<br />
on OpenMoko wiki they announced: "Every 10 pack, will come with<br />
a box of stuff. 10 pouches and 10 head sets." Will this offer<br />
also be available in your shop? Some discount and bonus gadgets?<br />
I already want to order 20-30 phones to Czech Republic, so I am<br />
trying to find the best way, how to order this amount. Either<br />
from USA or from EU.<br />
<br />
Thank you, Martin Senkerik<br />
<br />
Hello,<br />
<br />
thanks a lot for asking. Right now we dont have Freerunner in<br />
stock, so no idea about earphones/pouches, sorry.<br />
I am happy to provide Czech users with OpenMokos. No customs,<br />
no paperwork, I have a lot CZ customers.<br />
Allow me to put you on the info list once it is avalaible and you<br />
get clear infos about all. We can work out free shipping and <br />
maybe some goodies.<br />
<br />
<br />
heres the standard info text:<br />
<br />
The new modell is called "Freerunner" (version GTA02).<br />
It will be available end of June 2008. We try to aim 300-350 EUR<br />
sales price.<br />
Once it's ready to ship, you willfind it in our shop.<br />
We do not make pre-orders of items we dont have in hands,<br />
so please understand. Once the Freerunner is in stock, ready to<br />
ship, we will send you a one-time info mail (we do not send<br />
you any spam, dont worry).<br />
<br />
Of course we are happy you bookmark us and come back to check<br />
for the nice Freerunner. Please find a small datasheet here:<br />
http://www.pulster.de/info/pdas/openmoko/freerunner-flyer.pdf<br />
<br />
<br />
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,<br />
Christoph Pulster<br />
<br />
* '''Moje komunikace s pobočkou FIC v ČR:'''<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
Taiwanský FIC v nejbližších dnech začne s prodejem mobilního telefonu<br />
Neo FreeRunner (www.openmoko.com). Chci se zeptat, jestli bude možné případné<br />
reklamace a opravy řešit u vás?<br />
<br />
Zatím není známý přesný způsob distribuce tohoto telefonu pro Evropu<br />
a Českou republiku. Nebude vaše pobočka zapojena do distribuční sítě?<br />
<br />
Děkuji za odpověď, Martin Šenkeřík<br />
Odpověď:<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
FIC CZ s.r.o. v těchto měsících přechází pod Foxconn CZ.<br />
V případě reklamace či informací se obracejte přímo na FIC TW.<br />
Kontaktní osobou na Zákaznickém oddělení je<br />
<br />
Mr. James Chang<br />
Customer Service Department<br />
Te.: +886 2 8751 8751 ext.6196<br />
James_chang@fic.com.tw<br />
<br />
S pozdravem<br />
<br />
Jarka Ripplova<br />
<br />
* '''Dotaz na celní úřad ohledně zpracování zásilky:'''<br />
Věc: Informace<br />
<br />
K Vaší žádosti o informaci týkající se hromadného dovozu zásilky pro osobní<br />
potřebu více příjemců Vám sdělujeme:<br />
<br />
Za zásilku zboží neobchodní povahy se ve smyslu celních předpisů považují<br />
zásilky, které jsou dováženy příležitostně a které obsahují výhradně zboží<br />
určené k osobnímu užití příjemců nebo jejich rodin, přičemž toto zboží nesmí<br />
povahou ani množstvím svědčit o obchodním úmyslu dovozce. Z uvedeného<br />
vyplývá, že tzv. sběrná zásilka nemůže být považována za zásilku zboží<br />
neobchodní povahy, i když obsah je určen pro osobní potřebu soukromých osob.<br />
Při dovozu zásilky obchodní povahy je zásilka zadržena při vstupu na celní<br />
území EU a příjemce vyzván k předložení celního prohlášení. Celní formality<br />
uskutečňuje příjemce, který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost.<br />
<br />
Pro zboží zařazené v některé z podpoložek čísla 8517 je celním sazebníkem EU<br />
stanovena sazba cla 0 %. Při dovozu zásilky zboží obchodního charakteru<br />
celní orgány posuzují, zda zboží nepodléhá zvláštnímu řízení podle zákona č.<br />
38/1994 Sb., o zahraničním obchodu s vojenským materiálem. Vedle cla se při<br />
propuštění dovezeného zboží do volného oběhu v tuzemsku vyměřuje DPH v<br />
základní sazbě 19 %. Základem pro vyměření DPH je cena, za kterou bylo zboží<br />
prodáno do EU, ke které se přičtou náklady na dopravu zásilky do EU, podle<br />
příslušných ustanovení zákona o DPH.<br />
<br />
Celní dluh, jehož součástí je i DPH, se vyměří v českých korunách z celní<br />
hodnoty převedené na české koruny v kurzu platném pro příslušné období.<br />
Aktuální kurzy měn jsou uveřejněny na stránkách Celní správy České republiky<br />
www.cs.mfcr.cz cestou Servis - Kurzovní lístky.<br />
<br />
== To open Colombia groupsales ==<br />
<br />
I wan to open the Colombia-Bogotá group sales.<br />
I want Neo advanced, no matter if the rest of the people wants the other.<br />
my mail: arawaco@ieee.org<br />
Ideas are welcome<br />
<br />
== USA ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#San_Francisco_Bay_Area San Francisco Bay Area] ===<br />
If everyone agrees [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm I] will pick up and pay for the 10 units from Fremont.<br />
Payment Options...<br />
* Bring cash to the arranged meetup to get the device. (I can arrange to meet up with individuals if needed)<br />
* We need to pay CA tax so keep that in mind, I'll try to get the exact price prior to pickup<br />
* Make sure you have confirmed with me your intention to buy the unit, the priority order will be the order that the list is currently in, any unconfirmed member of the group will be slipped to the bottom of the list on the day the units are available<br />
<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/dufflebunk dufflebunk]<br />
I'm all alone in the second group. I guess if anyone from the first group has to drop out I'll be happy to take their place. I would prefer cash (or cheque), Paypal sucks. <br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/krid krid said: ]<br />
I'm in for cash, just tell me where to show up. However, unless Steve says it'll be massively boring, I'd like to go to Fremont and see the facility. I'll be out of town at OSCON the last week of July, so hopefully we'll be able to do this before then. If not, I'll make arrangements with Jim.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm Jim said: ]<br />
I'll let everyone know when I'm going to Fremont to pick them up (Sounds like the first week in July), so anyone who wants to tag along is welcome and we can distribute them then and there.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Cry_Regarder Cry Regarder] At the time I moved myself from separate monterey to san francisco, there were 8 folks listed. That was 27 May. Jim Lutz wasn't in the list yet. Accordingly, I moved one of mine from the post 10 to above and swapped Jim Lutz down.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Xeromist Kelley said: ]<br />
That's fine Jim. I didn't ask to be given any special treatment and I want everything to remain fair. If we are able to form 2 full groups are you willing to buy for both or will we need to select a distributor for group 2 as well?<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm Jim said: ]<br />
I suspect we will need a second coordinator for the second group, $4k is a lot to fork out at one time, $8k is out of the question for me! However right now I think we can get everyone who has replied a unit from the first 10, unless one of the non-repliers contacts me before we pick up we won't need a second group.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Cry_Regarder Cry Regarder] I emailed "Steve" at openmoko and he said that they are working on the logistics for bulk buys of fractional case lots for quantities over 10. I don't know if they'll sort it out before they arrive though. Another possibility is to join in with LA...they'll probably appreciate having them picked up.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/kenrestivo ken said: ]<br />
I'm not sure how to order one. I guess I just make an entry here? I want one and I'll pay cash. Just tell me where and when to meet. I can do it this weekend or July 4th weekend. Are the units REALLY shipping? Or will it be months before they arrive?<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Brianwc brianwc said: ]<br />
There's been some discussion on the mailing list that getting a mix of 850/900 units might not be possible. We have one person in our group who indicated they want a 900 unit. We should figure out whether this is really possible and if not, either ask our 900 member whether they'll take an 850 or whether we need to bump up the next person in line. It is my intention to go with Jim to the pickup if I'm at all able to do so. Keep me posted.<br />
<br />
Discuss any other ideas here.<br />
<br />
== Spain ==<br />
<br />
I think that the pulster way is cheaper for all of our group. I'll wait, if I can, to place my order until Moday.<br />
<br />
Pienso que nos sale mas barato por logistica comprar en pulster aunque si estamos cerca podriamos juntar las comandas locales.</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Group_salesTalk:Group sales2008-06-27T12:13:27Z<p>Mivaho: /* The Netherlands */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
== England ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}<br />
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?<br />
<br />
:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.<br />
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
::Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====<br />
<br />
I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?<br />
<br />
I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?<br />
<br />
In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(<br />
<br />
:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] - [mailto:stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk let me know] if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
<br />
Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)<br />
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.<br />
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but<br />
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}<br />
<br />
<br />
Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php<br />
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen<br />
<br />
Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van <br />
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd <br />
zou willen zien worden.<br />
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie <br />
over het te leveren artikel.<br />
<br />
Uw naam J. de Haan<br />
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
Artikelinformatie<br />
Merk openmoko<br />
Naam freerunner<br />
Website openmoko.com<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen <br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor <br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail <br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
E-mailcontact - verzonden<br />
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.<br />
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)<br />
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not<br />
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out <br />
on Utrecht CS :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)<br />
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? <br /><br />
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1." <br />
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.<br />
<br />
{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will have 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Belgium Belgium]. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.<br />
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:<br />
<br />
Geachte heer,<br />
<br />
Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
<br />
Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx<br />
Product Management / Technical Support<br />
<br />
Salland Automatisering<br />
<br />
Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post. <br /><br />
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.<br />
from Jan de Haan <haan.j.de@gmail.com><br />
to inkoop@azerty.nl,<br />
date Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM<br />
subject Openmoko - Freerunner<br />
mailed-by gmail.com<br />
<br />
hide details 8:52 PM (0 minutes ago)<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen<br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor<br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
Een importeur schijnt trisoft.de te zijn. Let wel: dit product is<br />
nog niet op de markt,<br />
al zijn de laatste test productie runs klaar.<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail<br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken. <br /><br />
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):<br />
<br />
=== Votes for a reseller ===<br />
{|border=1<br />
!Name<br />
!Trisoft<br />
!Open Source Nieuws Nederland<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (Subject to a solution for warranty)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[Special:Emailuser/User:PWerken|Peter van de Werken]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (note: I'll buy 2 Freerunners)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (If warranty is OK)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|'''Total'''<br />
|<br />
|10<br />
|}<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:<br />
Beste Yorick,<br />
<br />
Bedankt voor je mail en informatie; ik kende de toestellen niet, maar zou ze<br />
best eens van dichtbij willen bekijken. Het 'developer' model lijkt me dan<br />
echter weer minder interessant voor ons; het 'consumer' model zou eind 2008<br />
op de markt moeten komen?<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
With kind regards,<br />
<br />
Michael Brus<br />
Manager PDAshop<br />
<br />
<br />
Coolblue<br />
Molenbaan 11 . 2908 LL Capelle a/d IJssel . www.coolblue.nl<br />
<br />
Coolblue is...<br />
MP3shop.nl . PDAshop.nl . Digicamshop.nl . GPSshop.nl .<br />
Smartphoneshop.nl . Consoleshop.nl . Telefoonshop.nl . meer...<br />
<br />
Should I forward this to Michael Shiloh?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 07/05} I'll vote to wait until there are actually phones shipping, until that time, the more people we gather here, and maybe other dealers, the better the deal we get(I hope).<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 08/05} <br />
Well, I want to have the phone as soon as possible. The best deal ever isn't my main concern.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 13/05}<br />
I've been browsing the mailing list, and found [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/016971.html this post] from Openmoko's Steve. Group sales have 28 days of DOA (Dead On Arrival) coverage, and single sales have 14 days of DOA coverage. Which I think is reasonable. BTW, I don't think there will be a better deal than the $369 per phone for the 10-pack. <br /><br />
We currently have enough people to fill 2 10-packs, which is awesome! <br /><br />
What we do need to figure out are the import costs, and the shipping costs. (it's shipped via UPS, if I recall correctly from the mailing list.)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 22/05}<br />
<br />
I wouldn't be too sure that this is financially going to be the best deal. This message in the community mailing list (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017668.html) shows interesting info regarding Pulster.<br />
----<br />
''Christph Pulster wrote:<br />
''> about 10 pack orders - we try to be cheaper than the 10-order-<br />
''> pack-price ! so no need to collect ten local buyers.<br />
<br />
''This sounds so good...! I'm waiting for official news (and maybe infos<br />
about the gifts too)...''<br />
----<br />
'''I checked their webpage and they advertise with OpenMoko Freerunner 299 eur'''<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 22/05} I checked their website too and it says 'Sobald der Freerunner wirklich lieferbar ist, ist er an dieser Stelle mit konkretem Preis zu finden und real bestellbar.' Which could mean that the price will be something other than 299 euro.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I like the pulster deal a lot, even if they are the same price as buying the 10 pack in the US the warranty part is a lot better seeing Germany is next door to us. Only thing is that you would mis out on the pouch and headset, dunno if that's such a great loss. And they say they will be going under the price of the US 10 pack order if you order the 10 from them. So maybe a vote on yes or no to the pouch/headset deal? Maybe we should check if with Pulster a group order of 10+ will always give the discount. Like 22 will get the same discount and that we are not forced in getting groups of ten people.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I wrote an e-mail to pulster with the questions so I will post the answer here when I get one.<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 24/05} <br />
The pouch and headset are not that important IMO. I guess most join the group sale for convenience and reduce cost. But maybe I'm wrong.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
<br />
'''From the community mailing list again:<br />
<br />
'''Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote [to Pulster - Ed.]:<br />
''>> 1. Do you know when you'll be approximately able to define a price?<br />
''>> 2. The Freerunner will be shipped with extra goodies (generally<br />
''>> given only to people buying a 10-pack (ie: pouch and headset)?<br />
''> <br />
<br />
'''From Pulster [Ed.]<br />
<br />
''> Price fix ASAP I have the units in own hands/stocks.<br />
''> 299-319 eur is really realistic.<br />
''> <br />
''> All goodies included at PULSTER !<br />
''> <br />
''> Also can be bought a lot accessories extra very soon (debug board, pens, <br />
''> cases etc)<br />
''> <br />
''> you see, I will make all your wishes true :)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/05} Yeah, read that message in the weekend, no reply to my mail at this moment but seeing this message straight from pulster I would say that we should buy directly from pulster as a group. Warranty wise it's better as well.<br />
<br />
399 U.S. dollars is about 253 Euros and including VAT that would become 301.07 Euro so pulster with their price being 299 Euro (see below) has a good price and for 10 and more there is a discount just like in the US. I would propose to take the dutch group sale to Pulster.<br />
<br />
The following mail from Chis Pulster was on the list also.<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
I am Chris from pulster.eu - my hello to this great community.<br />
<br />
May I add some points from my side:<br />
<br />
- Freerunner - ready to order ASAP it is available. We do not<br />
take pre-orders of items we dont have in hands. For a one-time info- <br />
mail once the Freerunner is ready to order, please just email me <br />
mailto: christoph@pulster.de<br />
- we aim a Freerunner price tag of 299 EUR incl. VAT<br />
- shipping worldwide with DHL, Europa 15 EUR, World 30 EUR postage<br />
- soon we offer accessories for Freerunner like spare batterie, charger, <br />
Headset, pouch and also the debug-board<br />
- group-sales make local communities, that is wonderful. I am happy to <br />
sell Freerunner separately or in packages.<br />
<br />
Many thanks,<br />
Chris<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
Indeed let's take the dutch group sale to Pulster. We are with 22 so we should be able to make a good deal regarding the goodies. And in that way no-one has to take any financial risk.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 28/05} My guess is, that for a group buy at pulster there is still one entity needed for buying the devices. The thing is that with pulster, as with the US deal, the waranty should be per person and not named for the buying entity.<br />
<br />
:I don't think that we need to do the 'group buy' at Pulster. You can just buy the device at 299 a piece there. I would like to have the pouch though, if they can assure me that the pouch and other goodies would be included in the deal (because they of course could make a number of 'groupbuys' for the entire customer base), then count me in.--[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
:: Your absolutly right on this one, been thinking about it and the possible discount we would be getting would wasted on shipping within the Netherlands again. Like you said, if there are goodies involved it's a different deal of course :) . --[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
:::So let's start negotiating with Pulster regarding the goodies. We can bring in 22 customers, so he has something to win. It might be important to know whether Pulster takes credit card payments. I cannot find that option on their webpage and an electronic banktransfer will add another 15 (?) euro.[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
<br />
:::: Bank payments to germany are free of charge, at least for my bank (Rabobank).{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]]}<br />
<br />
:::: I'm afraid they don't accept credit cards (from their [http://www.pulster.de/engl/imprint.htm About Us page]:<br />
<br />
We do not accept any other payment option like PayPal, Reembourse/Cash-on-delivery (COD) payments, <br />
direct CreditCard payments, any kind of cheques, western union, postal money orders, cash. Please dont <br />
ask, we do not accept none of this options thanks to a very few but very expensive scams. <br />
<br />
:::: Nice double negative in there, btw. But still, 299+15 is less than 350 or 400. ;) --[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
::::: If it is going to be a group sale (if pulster provides the goodies) it would be (discounted price * 22 + transfer rate + (21 * shipping within Holland)) [[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
:::::: Are you assuming that we'd get a discounted price when we order in bulk? I have not seen any evidence that Pulster will lower the price even more, when done like that. But indeed, we'd have 22 * whatever-price-the-freerunner-will-get-at-Pulster + shipping costs... but then we are back at the discussion of how to deal with the warranty. Will Pulster give separate invoices for each of the phones in the pack? --[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 02/06} Okay I got an answer from Chris Pulster. I had 2 main questions that he answered and they were 1. Will the pouch and other goodies be included with a group sale as would be if we were to buy in the states. 2. Is a group sale, like in the states, limited to groups of ten or will the discount be for all phones bought in bulk. This is what he had to say:<br />
<br />
about your question: at the moment we dont know about pouch/headsets <br />
included or not. I will tell you a more reliable answer if Freerunners <br />
are in stocks.<br />
my discount system and sales are full flexibel (no ten-pack limitations)<br />
let us talk and we find a nice offer for the dutch OpenMoko community !<br />
<br />
<br />
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,<br />
Christoph Pulster<br />
<br />
We will have to take a look at what the discount will be and if it is worth it considering we will have extra shipping cost in holland.<br />
<br />
If the shipping costs will be too high, i would be willing to pick the phones up myself, if my expenses are covered. We have to figure out further distribution though. {[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 03/06}<br />
<br />
{[[User:Atilla|Atilla Filiz]] 19/06} Don't we have a chance for direct shipping from Taiwan? The phones are produced there anyway.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 20/06} We could but the problem would be that we would be buying it for consumer prices where Pulster buys a whole lot, and being a reseller pays a reseller price, or better yet a distributors price. So my bet is that we would be better of getting it from pulster than from Taiwan because that would not be much cheaper then getting it from the States.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Atilla|Atilla Filiz]] 22/06} Any news from Pulster or any other possible importer yet?<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/06} I got some news from Christoph just now but am waiting for permission to post it here, nothing earth chattering but just want his permission seeing it is a private e-mail. I'll keep you posted.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/06}<br />
<br />
Okay this is the e-mail Christopher from pulster.de wrote to me this afternoon:<br />
<br />
- our price of 299 EUR for Openmoko Freerunner is already rock-bottom, so we can not make further discounts, my apologises. What we can offer is free shipping <br />
worldwide if you order 10 units or more at once.<br />
<br />
- delivery time: same day money cleares we ship with registered and insured DHL airmail parcel. Transit time inside Europe is c.3 days, outside Europe 5 days.<br />
<br />
- customs: inside EU community there is no hassle with customs and no taxes/VAT will be added. Its all included our price of 299 eur. <br />
Outside EU community (Switzerland, Norway, USA, Asia) we will reduce German VAT giving a buying price of 249 EUR excl. VAT. Please note your local VAT will be added.<br />
<br />
- warranty: we give full 2 years warranty period. Please note, this is legal law for European business and compare it with own imports from Asia/USA.<br />
For warranty issues we are happy to include a separate invoice for each person of the GroupSale.<br />
<br />
- accessories included: its identical to the single unit order. Any other accessories (Cases/Headset etc.) can be ordered in our shop www.pulster.eu - we already have stocks.<br />
<br />
My first reaction was that seeing this it would be better to order as an individual because the only benefit of the free shipping would be lost because we would have to re-distribute it in Holland so that would add some shipping costs again. That's what I wrote to Chris and he replied that another benefit of a group order is that a group order has precedence before a shop sale. So My guess is ( and I hope to get that confirmed by Chris ASAP ) that if we as a group order at pulster.de before the shop opens, those phones will be reserved for us. When you order as an individual there is a chance you will miss out on the first batch and would have to wait until Chris gets another batch of phones.<br />
<br />
So my advice would be, if we want to get our hands on a Openmoko FreeRunner as one of the first in Holland we would need to buy as a group. Again, we, Open Source Nieuws Nederland, are willing to be the mediator. The price would be the Euro 299 plus shipping costs within Holland and the money needs to be in our bank account before we pay pulster.de we can not afford to pay in advance. How do we communicate? Should I open an e-mail adres fot this? Do any of you want to do the group thing with pulster, or buy as an individual or take your money to the states?<br />
<br />
SeeYa,<br />
Michel<br />
<br />
{[[User:nicolas|Nico Veenkamp]] 26/06}. I am willing to group my order together with the rest using Open Source Nieuws Nederland as intermediate. Specifically to have the priority advantage of the group order mentioned by Michel to get my hands as soon as possible on the Neo FreeRunner. I would suggest to Michel to put order details on this page and open a specific email adres to receive orders.<br />
<br />
I'm also in on that groupsale. Too bad it doesn't include the goodie bag, but that doesn't matter much. :) I'd suggest setting up an email address. You do need address details from the participants. :) <br /> Or do you prefer to set a date on which the Neos are handed to everyone in person? :) <br /> [ [[User:Madjo|MadJo]] 08:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC) ]<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/06}Count me in on the group sale too. My main interest is to get the neo as soon as possible and to have an individual tax receipt. Is that possible when i join in on the group sale?<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/06} Okay, The following will happen. I will try and mail everyone on the group sale page (as long as people are using a registered username with e-mail address) and this talk page (when not on the group sale page) with the specifics, I will also mail to the community mail list with that message. Keep in mind, this will all take some time because first we need to give people a chance to "sign up", then to transfer money and then for us to transfer all that money to pulster. Then (when pulster has the money) the phones will be send to us and then they will be send to the people. So do not expect them to be with you within a few days after making the money transfer to us, if you want that then try your luck by buying it on your own and hope that there will enough in stock at pulster.de before you get there.<br />
<br />
We will be sending the phones with insured postage, this will put an extra Euro 7,95 on top of the Pulster.de price of Euro 299. It could be we have to do some extra wrapping, I'm waiting for an answer on that part by Pulster. We still need 10 or more buyers so if that number is not reached it is everyone for his/her self.<br />
<br />
Maybe we need to put something on the group sale page?<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/06} Is it possible to verify at Pulster if they put individual receipts with the phones, or they just send one for the whole group?<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/06} To quote from the above mentioned mail from Pulster.de "For warranty issues we are happy to include a separate invoice for each person of the GroupSale" So that's okay.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 27/06} According to messages on the community list Pulster will start shipping on the 4th of July, we probably should have our order in before that, otherwise were better of just ordering on our own. The savings has been reduced to around EUR 8,- on shipping. I'm not sure that alone makes it worth the hassle, and they are taking orders right now...<br />
<br />
([[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/06} I'm not sure what to do right now... We're at 29 of 30 now, but I am really tempted to pre-order now... Any advice we can give each other?<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 27/06} To be honest, I think anyone who wants it asap should just order it from pulster. The benefits of a group purchase there are just 8,- and it will take time to get it all setup and to get the distribution done. <br />
A group order may just be worthwhile when getting 10packs from the states, the cost will be roughly the same, but it will include the goodies (and loose the warranty), maybe there are 10 people who consider that worth the effort.<br />
Unless someone convinces me to do otherwise I will just place my own order with pulster by the end of today...<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 27/06} Okay, my thoughts exactly, after reading the message in te mailing list today from Christohper and thinking about it and reading your remarks, I have to agree. Organizing all this including transfering the money to our account and then the rest of the process, you are better of ordering dirct from Pulster, and the fact that you can order extra's as well. So as far as I'm concerned the group sale is of and I would advice everyone to order at pulster.de<br />
<br />
So I will NOT be sending out e-mails today to organize all of this. It's everyone for his/her self. :) Start ordering. :) Maybe a message stating this should be put on the group sale page?<br />
<br />
== Canada ==<br />
==== GTA (Toronto) ====<br />
{ --[[User:Argo|Argo]] 03:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC) }<br />
For group 1 it looks like they have actually gotten the 10 orders in? or am I them adding up wrong?<br />
<br />
== Croatia ==<br />
{--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 14:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)} '''ja ne bih da već sada radimo pan-balkansku grupu, iskreno sam iznenađen odazivom do sada, pa jedino možda ako ne skupimo dovoljno ljudi do kraja ovog tjedna...'''<br />
<br />
moj post sa hr.comp.os.linux upućen mnalisu;<br />
<br />
> BTW, ti si zapravo kontaktirao HULK i rekli su ti da bi to oni isli raditi i<br />
<br />
> gnjaviti se sa svim tim, ili ih cisto spominjes onako u smislu "pa oni su<br />
<br />
> dragi ljudi, sigurno ce besplatno uloziti mjesece svog zivota u to u zamjenu<br />
<br />
> za pivu" ?<br />
<br />
Davio sam ih malo zadnja dva dana na IRCu, i prema logu načelno su za<br />
da se narudžbe hendlaju preko njih. A i mislim da se ipak ne radi o<br />
mjesecima života bačenih za pivu, more like možda 2-3 sata za gajbu<br />
ili dvije :), hell ako je toliko teško napravit ću ja sve, učlanit se<br />
u HULK ako treba<br />
<br />
ali do toga trenutka ovako ja razmišljam:<br />
<br />
1.) skupimo 10 zainteresiranih<br />
2.) ja nazovem carinu i agenciju za telekomunikacije<br />
3.) pitamo openmoko za shipping estimate<br />
4.) ako su svi i dalje za, skupljanje sredstava i na kraju narudžba<br />
<br />
dakle ništa nije obligatory, idemo step by step, onog trenutka kada se<br />
prijavi 10 ljudi na wikiju ja zovem nadležne službe, pa ćemo vidit di<br />
stojimo sa uvozom i tim''<br />
<br />
nemoj odmah "worst case scenario" :)<br />
<br />
>> mozda da se malo na elitesecurity.org pokrene rasprava?<br />
<br />
--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 10:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC) svakako, ja sam za<br />
<br />
== Czech Republic ==<br />
Distribuční seznam, základní informace naleznete v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Czech_Republic GroupSales]<br />
<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Diskuze Diskuze]<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Dopl.C5.88uj.C3.ADc.C3.AD_informace Doplňující informace]<br />
<br />
=== Diskuze ===<br />
''Martin Holec''> Máme tu 4x ze Zlína, co kdyby někdo jel do Brna pro 4ks a ve Zlíně by se rozdělili?<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> jak jsem psal, já do Zlína jezdívám, a od května do září budu ve Zlíně velmi často, takže se Zlínem není vůbec problém.<br />
<br />
Jinak už se objevily nějaké termíny. Jestli jsem to dobře pochopil, tak 9.5. by už mohla začít masová výroba a brzy na to by měl začít prodej...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak by měl vlastně vypadat? Takový ten bíly se mně moc nelíbí. Radši bych měl [http://http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:FIC-neo1973_small.jpg černý].<br />
<br />
''Michal Pěnka''> Protože jsem jedenáctý a nevím, jestli bude možné objednat 11 kusů nebo jen po desítkách, domluvím se s Tomem Vargou později (jestli by byl ochotný pro převoz do Prahy), každopádně bych také raději ten černý.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak to tak tady pročítám tak to půjde objednat za zvýhodněnou cenu (+pytlík? a headset) opravdu jenom po desítkách. Ale IMHO když této stránce zvedneme popularitu (případně přiberem Slováky) tak jich budem nakonec brát minimálně dvacet ;) Mně osobně připadá datum 9.5. hodně optimistické.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> FreeRunner bude pouze v jedné barevné variantě, a to černý. To datum 9.5. mám [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates odsud]<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>Nemáte někdo fotku freerunnera ? na wiki jsem zatím našel jenom fotky GTA1-čky<br />
<br />
''David Kozub''>> Jelikoz se vyskytuju ve Zline i v Praze, muzu zajistit prevoz do Prahy.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No tak například tady to máš dokonce na videu: http://youtube.com/watch?v=k9QLdK6pFCI ;-) Ale jinak i na wiki se povalují fotky FreeRunnera. Například hned ta první na hlavní stránce ;-)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> To video je parádní. Co se týče té fotky z úvodu wiki, myslel jsem, že je to jenom render. Jinak jak jsem tak bloudil po stránkách české pošty - nejlevněj to nejspíš vyjde poslat jako profibalík za myslím že 64korun. Za dobírku se něco ještě připlácí. Balík je pojištěný do 100 000. [http://www.cpost.cz:80/jetspeed/portal/media-type/html/user/anon/page/default.psml/js_pane/sluzbyonline%2Czasilky?docid=370&calc_lb0=10424&calc_cb0=1 více zde]<br />
<br />
ad. '''Praha (Čechy):'''<br />
<br />
''Tom Varga''>> Pokoušel jsem se vyčíst z mailing listu, jak je to s tou množstevní slevou - co jsem z toho pochopil, tak by neměl být problém objednat množství nedělitené desíti, ale ty kusy navíc jsou pak [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016432.html bez slevy] a [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016202.html bez bonusu]; pořád by se to ale vyplatilo skrze poštovné. Prozatím bych navrhl, aby se zájemci z Prahy (Čech) zapsali / potvrdili smazáním otazníku v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu], možná něco podobného pro Slovensko - momentálně to vypadá, že bude snazší sehnat 20 zájemců celkem a taky by se tím mohla situace trochu vyjasnit. Osobně jsem schopen zajistit dovoz z Brna do Prahy, Liberce, Jablonce n.N. a přilehlých končin. Případné návrhy sem ;)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>> Řekl bych že čím větší balík poletí za Ameriky sem tím levněj to vyjde. Pokud není poštovné na gramy. 20-ti zájemců se určitě dočkáme. Když počítám Františka Horínka z Bratislavy tak je nás 18. Co se týče bonusů na headsetu moc nelpím ale ten pytel by se mně vážně hodil. Často v kapse kombinuju mobil a klíče nebo šroubovák...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>> Poštovné samozřejmě není na gramy, ale na libry, neboli každých započatých 0.45 kg se platí, plus se poštovné započítává do cla, mimochodem taková zásilka asi jen tak přes celnici neprojde, takže je možné, že nikdo (příjemce) bude muset dodat na celnici případné dokumenty dokladující hodnotu zasílaného zboží.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>> Tak dle "platného" celního sazebníku by se clo nemělo platit. Viz [http://disk.jabbim.cz/ivir@jabbim.com/celni_sazebnik.pdf Sazebník] strana 568. Tedy by se hradilo pouze DPH. Aspoň si myslím, že 20 telefonů jako "dárek" asi neprojde.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>>> No tím lépe, ale tak já to beztak myslel jako celý celní dluh a to dph je právě i z poštovného.<br />
<br />
''Miloslav Machotka''> Koukám že jsem trochu zaspal dění. :) V [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu] jsem se připsal k Praze. Mám to nejblíž, jsem z Vlašimi, ale jinak jsem pro to schopen dojet i do Brna. Jsem pro to aby se to vyřešilo, pokud možno, po desítkách a pak to rozvést (rozeslat) po Čechách a Slovensku. Bonusy se asi většině lidí hodí.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>>>>> DPH musíme taky platit ?? To je mrzuté. Kolik mají DPH slováci ? nevyšlo by to levněj poslat do Bratislavy a stama ''"propašovat"'' k nám ? Když už máme ten šengen... Nevrátí nám třeba amíci DPH které za to zaplatili u nich ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>>>>> Co je mi známo, tak při obchodování mimo zemi se DPH neúčtuje a účtuje se až v cílové zemi. Dle rok starého článku na měšci je základní sazba stejná, tj. 19%. Od DPH by to šlo odprostit pouze pokud by na tom balíku bylo napsáno, že se jedná o dárek. Pak se na to daň neuplatní. Jakmile se mi povede najít ustanovení/článek, tak jsem dám odkaz.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No ono je stále ještě otázkou, odkud to vůbec budou posílat. Protože sem někde viděl informace, že se budou snažit zásobovat Evropu z nějakého centra v Evropě. O tom dárku jsem taky slyšel, ale prej to taky není zaručený způsob. Celníci se do toho můžou podívat, a uvalit na to daň podle vlastního rozhodnutí (prej). Jinak ale je tu ještě možnost, že by nám to někdo dovezl. Nevíte jak to funguje v tom případě?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>To centrum v Evropě bylo v plánu avšak levněji jim to vyjde posílání z Ameriky, takže bude k dispozici jen jedno centrum v USA. Ohledně toho dárku jsem doposud četl, že jeho částka nesmí přesáhnout 55€, jinak je normálně proclíván. Při osobním převozu jsou nastaveny limity výše viz [http://www.celnisprava.cz/CmsGrc/Cestovani-a-nakupy/Jak-se-chovat/mimo-eu.htm celní správa].<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Kdyby vezl dva tři tak by možná ukecal že je to dárek ale dvacet... clo vem čert to bude nanejvýš 3,5% což není taková pálka. Spíš kdy se to DPH z toho platí ? Hned na celnici nebo musím podat něco jako daňové přiznání ?<br />
* No tak zatím jsem zjistil že nejspíš jediná šance jak se osvobodit od cla a DPH je že všeci sedem do letadla a zajedem si pro to. Limit je 6000kč na jednu osobu starší 15-ti let.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mares''>>>> Clo se na tento druh zboží nevztahuje. Platí se pouze české DPH, který ti celníci vyměří z ''ceny zboží + doprava + clo'', pak ti v případě fyzické osoby zašlou na tvou poštu, kde uhradíš DPH jako dobírku. U podnikatele je to trošku jiné. VAT (čili americké DPH) na zboží nebude uvaleno, jelikož zboží je vyváženo z USA.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No a dá se tohle spočítat předem? Abysme mohli stanovit cenu?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> No dokud nebude jasne kolik bude stat postovne (typ + vaha) a jaky bude kurs dolaru, tak presna cena asi tezko.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>No co. Tak ti každý pošlem sedm tisíc s tím, že potom přebytky rozdělíš do obálek a budeš předávat s každým telefonem obálku. Jinak to asi dost dobře nepůjde. Jedině že by nám to sem dopravila česká pobočka FIC-u/foxconn. Ale to je podle mně nepravděpodobné.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>JJ take myslim, ze bych dal predbeznou cenu 7K s tim, ze uz je poslem, at muzes pruzne zareagovat a ne pak cekat az vsichni poslou.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>> Kdyby se zase Steve nebo někdo vyjádřil v jakém je to stavu a přidal předběžný odhad kdy se začne prodávat. Teďka je to těžko. Můžou ho vydat zítra ale taky třeba i za půl roku pokud se objeví nějaký složitý problém.<br />
Ještě k té předběžné ceně - dolar není za 15 korun ale za 16,1-16,2 korun I s DPH se do těch 7000 nespíš nevejdem. Jestli že se domluvíme žo začnem posílat peníze tak navrhuju posílat 7500. IMHO dolar už níž nepůjde.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Co jsem se zatím díval na možnosti přepravy (DHL,Fedex,UPS,USPS), tak nejvýhodněji vychází USPS ([http://www.usps.com/ usps.com]), kdy se pohybujeme kolem částky 120$ i s pojištěním (kdyby to bylo cca 10kg což pochybuji). Bohužel maximální pojištění činí 5 000$, přičemž celková částka balíku vychází na cca 7 580$ . U ostatních jsem ohledně pojištění nenašel zmínku, přičemž poštovné vycházelo většinou přes 500$. Z pohledu pojištění by bylo vhodné objednávky rozdělit. Ještě bude záležet jaké poštovní služby nabídnou v e-shopu. Včera u ČSOB byla prodejní cena dolaru na 16,44Kč/$ a musím bohužel souhlasit, že lepší to už nebude. Jinak ceník je k dispozici na této adrese [http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781 http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781] .<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Teď mně napadlo - co kdyby jsem někde založili učet (nejlépe spořící) v dolarech a poslali to tam teď ? [http://www.mesec.cz/clanky/ucet-v-cizi-mene-ano-ale-kde/] Kdyby tak člověk věděl že pozítru neoznámí prodej...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>> Tak urcite bych pockal s placenim na nejake jistejsi vyjadreni, ale necekal bych na otevreni kramu, tehdy uz by chtelo, aby se to dalo hned objednat, co se tyka uctu neverim, ze dolar spadne, ale ani ze poroste a tak bych to neresil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vzhledem k množství objednávaného zboží bych možná už využil dopravních společností, které za nás provedou celní odbavení. Aspoň metodický pokyny k vyplnění JSD (jednotný správní doklad) nejsou triviální a zabere to minimálně půlden. Ukázku dokumentu jsme nalezl zde: [http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/ http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/].<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> Dole v tom dopisu z celního úřadu se píše: "který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost" to nikdo z nás má?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >> '''[http://www.trisoft.de/en_freerunner.htm Evropský Distributor]''', ale je celkem dražší.<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Což o to, [http://www.pulster.de/ tady] je o 50 euro levnější, ale nemyslím si, že to bude ve výsledku výhodnější.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>> Co jsem se díval do pokynů, tak to může vyplnit i fyzická osoba, jelikož každý způsobilý občan může provést obchodní činnost. Pouze nesmí být opakovaného rázu, tj. jednorázové obchody. Zkusím se tedy dotázat konkrétněji na tuto část. Ohledně toho evropského distributora nevím. Odhadem to vychází přes 1000 Kč dráž bez poštovného a bez bonusů. Jestliže se nám poradí vyřešit problém s celním úřadem, tak bych spíše volil objednávku z USA. Připadá mi, že tyhle obchody to jen objednají v USA, přijmou a přepošlou s přirážkou.<br />
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''Michal Bořek'' >>>> Take jsem pro USA, jen sem to nasel a ac ten od Radka Machulky je uz zajimavejsi tak verim, ze se dostanem i pod nej a jeste je tam ten obal a sluchatka.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''> Já jsem též pro USA. Ještě by bylo možné (teoreticky) zkusit si to objednat přes nějakého (mešího) obchodníka co bere věci od FIC-u<br />
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''Michal Bořek''> Tož sem [[GroupSales#Aktu.C3.A1ln.C4.9B|vyhlásil konkurz]] na koordinátora pražské větve a snad se najde někdo kdo je schopen se vejít do těch zásadních bodů co jsem tam nastínil.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Relativně požadavky splňuji. Mám studentský ČSOB účet mající limit na 1,5M, kartu Visa Classic, angličtinu zvládám na úrovni čtení technické dokumentace, bydlím na Barrandově a jabber též mám (ivir@jabbim.com). Jen tu důvěryhodnost nemám. :) S tím clem to bude ještě zajímavé, ale snad mi ohledně toho ještě poradí z celního úřadu. V nouzi mám k dispozici i OSVČ. :)<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Dle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017531.html příspěvku] bude dovoz zboží do USA zahájen někdy 1.června. K tomu je nutné připočítat min. týden až 3 než zboží dorazí do skladů. Z příspěvku teoreticky vyplývá, že bude i evropský HUB. Snad to bude za stejnou částku a s bonusy. :)<br />
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''Michal Bořek''>Podle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017607.html příspěvku] by měl webový shop odkazovat na us i eu a to vypadá čím dál nadějnějš co se týká poštovného aj cla.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' jestli to dobře překládám tak není jasné jakým způsobem to půjde z činy - jestli lodí nebo letadlem ?<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Ano, aspoň takto jsem to pochopil i já. Problémem je ta doba dodání. Jinak co se týká vyřízení JSD (cla), tak u zprostředkovatele [http://www.kama-eu.cz/ KAMA s.r.o.>, jež mi doporučil celní úřad, vychází na cca 1000 Kč viz ceník, což mi připadá přijatelné.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''> No mně ty informace od Steva přijdou vždycky nějaké zmatené. Nevědí jestli lodí nebo letadlem, ale odejít by to snad mělo až 1.6. (nebo co má znamenat to datum, v jeho zprávě), takže to ještě docela potrvá... :-(<br />
Jan Mareš: můžeš prosím popsat co přesně má být těch 1000Kč a jak se na to přijde? Já tomu pořád nějak nerozumím...<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''>> <font color="gray">best case is I would start to test phones around the first of june. Then<br />
pack and ship.<br />
</font>1.6. začíná testovat telefony a potm je balit a odesílat.<br><br />
<font color=gray>The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically you<br />
build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy% pass the test, and the factory says.<br />
"good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on the<br />
test software, because that bad phone really was good." arrg.</font> Ale toto nějak moc nechápu.<br />
<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Vychází to takto: 250 Kč (vypracování JSD), 30 Kč (vypracování hodnoty), 250 Kč (jednani za deklaranta), 30 Kč (avízo) a pak asi ručení (350). Je to můj odhad a po konkrétním dotaze by měli sdělit částku. Asi tedy bude třeba připočítat poštovné (250 Kč). Zatím jsem jim napsal dotaz ohledně nepodnikající osoby s tímto množstvím, tak jsem zvědav kdy odpoví.<br />
Tu další část považuji za povzdychnutí, kdy jim vyrobili více telefonů z nichž jen část prošla a továrna chce tohle číslo minimalizovat a že dané chyby byly spíše SW povahy.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' Podle toho co píšeš bych řekl že by vyšlo levněj kdyby jsme brali všechny telefony dohromady.Jaké má výhody osamostatnění Prahy ?<br />
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''Michal Bořek'' No nedokazeme pojistit 30telefonu na jejich cenu pri doprave, ale jinak pokud by to clo vyrizovala firma asi by to bylo vyhodnejsi.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Trochu mě znepokojují zprávy v community e-mail archivu, kde uvádějí, že openmoko e-shop využívá služeb UPS. U nich by nebyl problém s pojištěním, ale ty ceny. Cena je de facto konstantní na cca 600$ (při 10kg balíčku), takže pak by bylo vhodné objednávku shrnout dohromady. Pak by to vycházelo o cca 10$ na hlavu více. Snažím se přesvědčit otce jako OSVČ, že by byla objednávka napsaná na něj a tím pádem by odpadl problém s využitím výše uvedené společnosti od nichž jsem dostal zamítavé stanovisko ohledně "neobchodní zásilky".<br />
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Pak už zbývá využít evropského distributora Pulster.de . Teoreticky mi vychází částka při dovozu z US na 7600 Kč a u Pulsteru na 7 660Kč bez poštovné. Avšak za předpokladu společné hromadné objednávky. V opačném případě je nutné připočíst u US objednávky cca tisícovku (při 10 lidech).<br />
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Zapomněl jsem tedy dodat, že zboží by bylo v republice za 4-5 dnů + pár dnů na vyřízení celního řízení.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''> veškeré spekulace jsou zatím velmi předběžné, protože ani sami prodejci ještě nemají jasno, za jakých podmínek budou FreeRunner prodávat. Každopádně Pulster se mi docela zamlouvá (viz níže), vypadá že s panem majitelem se dá rozumně domluvit. Asi mu řeknu že objednávám telefonů 40, aby byl kdyžtak ochoten větší slevy nebo nějakého zvýhodnění a nechám tu zásilku jenom rozdělit a poslat do Prahy a sobě... Ale jak říkám, pořád ještě je všechno předběžné, definitivně se rozhodne asi už během tohoto měsíce.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''> Ještě jedna novinka: pan Christoph Pulster z pulster.de mně oznámil zahájení prodeje debug boardu za "lidovou" cenu 149€ což je docela rozdíl oproti 99$... Takže jak říkám, všechno jsou teď jenom teoretické úvahy jak objednávku zorganizovat. Ikdyž osobně dávám pulster.de naděje, myslím, že se na ceně jak debugboardu, tak telefonu, bude dát domluvit, stejně jako nulová cena za dopravu zní přijatelně :-)<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''> Pražáků je docela nešťastý počet. Jediné co mně napadá je pokusit se domluvit s Plusterem že by vzal 4 desítky z toho nám přeposlal těch 34 a zbytek by si nechal a prodal. A taky chci poděkovat Martinu Šenkeříkovi za to že se o nás tak stará.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''>Tak je otázkou jak vlastně Pulster bude fungovat. Jako evropský distributor by měl od openmoko odbržet třeba 500ks (na dluh), které pak prodává. Z tohoto pohledu je jedno jaký počet telefonů se objedná. Pochybuji, že ta distribuce je založena na tom, že mi mu zaplatíme a on to objedná z US skladu. Pak by se určitě lépe hodil nákup přímo z US, kdy skrze UPS by se vyřídily všechny formality s celním úřadem. Rozhodující je konečná cena u Pulsteru.<br />
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''Radek Machulka'' > Tak to vypada, ze si budeme moci vybrat: [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-June/019117.html list]<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Žel s ohledem na co nejnižší cenu jsou oba distributori mimo hru, kdy se pohybujeme s cenou kolem 8 700Kč, což je hnedle o tisícikorunu více než při objednání z US. Doufejme, že Pulster nahodí lepší cenu.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' > To je mrzuté. Vypadá to, že se všichni distributoři rozhodli, že si na tom namastí kapsu a spoléhají na to, že nic podobného neexistuje a že je to novinka...<br />
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''Michal Bořek'' >> Podle té dvojnásobné ceny debug boardu se dá soudit, že nám nic jiného než US nezbude,tyhle EU distributoři jsou fakt jen zlatokopové.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Doufám že je amíci nezančou dorovnávat.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík'' > Jak jsem už několikrát psal, na jakékoliv spekulace je pořád brzo, situace se stále vyvíjí -> pulster dnes debugboard oficiálně slevnil na 99€. Takže ještě pořád není rozhodnuto. Prostě počkáme s čím kdo přijde (případně distributory trošku nakopnu sám :-)). "Amíci" je rozhodně dorovnávat nezačnou, když od "amíků" to ti Evropští distributoři objednávají ;-)<br />
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''Miloslav Machotka'' > K diskuzi o zvolení prodejce. Já jsem určitě pro Pulster. Cena je myslím dobrá a hlavně to ušetří Martinu Šenkeříkovi práci, které s náma má i tak dost. A pokud jsem to správně pochopil, řeší to i problém s počtem telefonů nedělitelným deseti. Všichni dostanou za svoje peníze totéž.<br />
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''František Horínek'' > Veľmi si vážim to, čo pre nás Martin Šenkeřík robí ale mam pocit, že 299€ je viac ako $399 a potom sa stráca akákoľvek zľava. Neviete niekto koľko by stála doprava z USA?<br />
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''Miloslav Machotka'' >> Podle dnešního kurzu to vychází následovně. 299€ = 7240 kč. 369$ = 5777kč * 1,19 DPH = 6875 kč. A to v tom nemáte dopravu a tu práci s vyřizováním. Nabídka Pulsteru mi přijde jako výhodná.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík'' >> Ok, myslel jsem že je to tu někde sepsané, ale radši to připomenu: 299€ (cca 7300Kč) je definitivní cena, to je cifra kterou dá každý z nás za telefon v případě objednávky od Pulstera. <br />
Naopak cena 369$ (cca 5830Kč) není ani zdaleka konečná. Připočítáme daň 19% a dostaneme se na cca 7000Kč. Stále ještě zbývá připočítat clo a poštovné (aspoň doufám, že jsem správně pochopil, co se podařilo zjistit ostatním). A to nepočítám pravděpodobné papírování a obíhání úřadů (ikdyž někdo myslím psal, že UPS to všechno řeší sama). Když už ne levněji, tak to vyjde minimálně na stejno... Kdyžtak mě doplňte/opravte, kdo se těmi cly zabýval hlouběji.<br />
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''Jan Mareš'' > Hezky shrnuto. UPS veškeré papírování ohledně DPH a cla řeší. Telefony spadají do 0% cla, takže se platí jen DPH, které je však vypočítávané i s dopravou, která je je celkem vysoká, aspoň při vypůjčení odhadů od Švýcarů, tj. 3kg za 10 telefonů, tak poštovné bude činit přes 10 000Kč. Takže to vychází nastejno či díky klesajícímu euru i výhodněji. Navíc plusem je 2letá záruka, naproti jednoleté z US.<br />
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''František Horínek'' >> Ďakujem za objasnenie na DPH som úplne zabudol. Máte pravdu je to výhodné<br />
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''Luboš Podrázský'' >> Zdravím, tak jsem taky pro Pulster.de. Cena vyjde víceméně nastejno, méně starostí pro organizátory, delší záruka a jestli se tím vyřeší i počet kusů nedělitelný 10-ti, tak asi neni co řešit.<br />
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''Michal Pěnka'' > Podle všech informací tady a na hlavní stránce groupsales se také přikláním k pulster. Dvouletá záruka není zanedbatelná. Už se těším :)<br />
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''Karel Volný'' > Pokud od Pulster dostaneme totéž, jako bychom dostali z USA, tak těch případných pár korun navíc klidně obětuju ve prospěch jednodušší organizace.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' > jestli jsem dobře pochopil zprávu na [[Community Updates]] tak by se 4.Července mělo začít prodávat. (...) Jak vůbec bude probíhat potenciální vyřizování reklamace ? Já teda doufám že při prvních kusech budou číňani odpočatí a budou dělat kvalitně, ale při mém štěstí úplně vidím jak to zapnu a ono to zasmrdí...<br />
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''Radek Machulka'' > Co se týče objednávky, já osobně bych počkal na zahájení prodeje, t.j. na dobu, kdy bude jasné kdo a za jakých podmínek bude FR prodávat. Je pochopitelné, že Pulster.de nemůže potvrdit konečnou cenu, protože si ji víceméně vycucal z prstu.<br />
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''Jan Mareš'' > Pulster předobjednávky nebere, tady jde spíše o stanovení částky, kterou Martin bude vybírat, aby se vracely jen drobné. Jde o urychlení objednávky, aby na nás vyšli ty univerzální stylusy. :) Ještě je nutné připočíst cca 3 dny na převod peněz na jejich účet. Ohledně té reklamace, tak při tomto způsobu objednání je nutné reklamované zboží zaslat do Pulsteru, kde bude reklamace vyřizována. Šlo by to přímo u FICu, ale české zastoupení prochází převzetím, viz vyjádření níže. Co jsem doposud zachytil, tak všechny FR jsou před balením testovány na funkčnost, takže může dojít k poškození jedině při přepravě, což bychom měli zachytit při přebírání zboží v Brně. Dle dostupných fotek balení jsou FR bytelně baleni, takže ani toto by nemělo hrozit.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' >> Jasně že dělají všecko proto aby byl počet reklamací co nejnižší, konec konců šetří tak peníze sami sobě, ale jsou věci které se dost dobře odzkoušet nedají. Naštěstí FR nemá žádné klouby nebo kryty které by se časem mohly rozpadnout takže mi snad vydrží aspoň 5 let. (...) není jedno jestli se vrací 5korun nebo pětistovka ?<br />
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''Radek Machulka'' > Já spíš tlumil to nadšení z pulster.de jako nejvýhodnějšího prodejce. Taky si nemyslím, že by nějaký prodejce byl potenciálně vhodnější z pohledu uplatňování případných reklamací.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' >> Tak pluster láká dvouletou zárukou.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' >> Jestli to s Plusterem bude fungovat tak, že pošlu 7500 (tj 300EUR) a dostanu za to FR tak, sice nerad, ale oželím i ten obal. Ono z USA to nejspíš stejně nevyjde o moc levněj. Jestli vůbec. Pokud vezmu 369USD s kurzem 16Kč a k tomu 19% DPH tak jmse rázem na sedmi tisících a to jsme ještě nezaplatili poštovné, na které se to DPH taky vzathuje, + přpadné poplatky za bůhví co.<br />
Já jsem pro pluster.<br />
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''Vojtěch Vozáb'' >> Asi bych taky byl pro pulster, protože dokud napevno neurčí cenu tak objednávka není závazná (opravte mě jestli se pletu), takže kdyby nějak zásadně zdražil, může se přinejhorším objednávka zrušit a objednat z Ameriky. Hlavně by bylo dobré vyřešit to rychle, pro mě je poslední termín kdy můžu zaplatit ve čtvrtek 26. června a pak až 4. července, mezi tím jsem pryč. To by sice mohlo stačit, protože prodej imho stejně dříve než 4. nezačne, ale bylo by samozřejmě lepší mít jistotu a shromáždit peníze v předstihu.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík'' > S Vojtou jsme to pořešili. A teď abysme zabili nějaký čas, než dorazí telefony k distributorům, bych se vás chtěl zeptat, jestli vám stačí, když číslo účtu pak pošlu mailem, hodím na svůj server a napíšu na wiki? Jestli se to někomu zdá málo bezpečné, navrhněte prosím lepší způsob.<br />
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''František Horínek'' > Ja si osobne myslím, že mail podpísaný pgp-čkom určite nič nepokazíte. Tiež by nebolo zle hodiť to na osobný server z SSL a rozdistribuovať fingerprint certifikátu. Možno ešte spraviť SHA a/alebo MD5 sumy čísla účtu/IP adresy servera. Hashe a fingerprinty rozosielať iba mejlom. Možno spraviť IRC server na ktorý sa bude dať dostať iba cez VPN/SSH z overovaním kľúča. Samotná komunikácia môže prebiehať v nejakej klasickej šifre napr. Vernamova šifra, ktorá je doteraz považovaná bez klúča za neprelomitelnú. Ale to už je moc veľa paranoje, či nie? :-)<br />
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''František Horínek'' > teraz ma napadlo, že by sa dali použiť slová z mejlov, keď ste si kontrolovali naše adresy z distribučnej siete, na prístup na v osobný server, Server by sa potom autentifikoval inou časťou mejlu, potom by sa zobrazilo číslo účtu. Tieto texty by potencionálny útočník nemal ako získať.<br />
<br />
Napr 1-3 slovo z prvého odstavca mejlu<br />
<br />
ssh/https: zadajte 1-3 slovo z 1 odstavca mejlu<br />
zadám: "Dnes bylo oficialne"<br />
odpove: 4-5 slovo 1 odstavec "potvrzeno zahajeni"; čislo účtu je 123456789<br />
<br />
tým pádom získam informáciu ktorá je adresovaná len pre oúzky kruh ľudí a ja viem, že tá informácia nie je podvodná.<br />
<br />
Len preto, že som paranoidný neznamená, že ma nesledujú. Idú po mne. :-D<br />
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'' Martin Šenkeřík '' > Uf... No problém je jeden, právě mně dorazil email z Pulster s exkluzivní nabídkou: dorazila mu první zásilka telefonů, obchod ještě neotevírá, ale nám už to nabízí ke koupi. Tzn. můžeme začít vybírat peníze, cenu 299€ potvrdil. Bližší info zveřejním za chvíli. A já už takovou ověřovací aplikaci nestihnu implementovat. Můžeme ještě využít jabber ohin@jabbim.cz - někteří lidé se mnou už komunikovali, takže potvrdí že za ním jsem opravdu já. A můžu pro největší paranoiky odpovědět libovolné otázky. Příp. mám v profilu vyplněn i telefon na sebe.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' >> Pokud mám číslo účtu někoho - jak mu s tím můžu ublížit? Já bych to s tím zabezpečování nepřeháněl. Už jenom proto že posílám nemalý peníz na účet člověka, kterého jsem nikdy neviděl. Rozešli mailem variabilní symboly nebo něco podobného ať naše platby můžeš identifikovat. a nebo ti můžeme do zprávy pro příjemce napsat každý svoje jméno.<br />
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''Milan Šedý'' >> Taky myslím, že nemusíme být až tak paranoidní. Na identifikaci stačí podle mě zpráva pro příjemce se jménem.<br />
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''Jan Černý'' >> Jestli jsem správně pochopil ten email od Pulstera, tak se všechno příslušenství včetně obalu a headsetu musí objednat zvlášť. Jak se to bude zařizovat?<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''>>> No já to mám zařízené tak, že obal mně ušije ségra na narozky a bez headsetu se obejdu.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''>>>> hehe, tak když už bude v tom, tak to by mohla ušít pro všechny ;-) Jinak informace k objednávání příslušenství jsou na wiki.<br />
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''Tomáš Sirný'' >>>> tak pozeram ze sme este dopadli dobre [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner tu] predavaju za 349 Eur a navyse je iba obal.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''>>>>> no tak k tomu sestřičku asi nepřesvědčím ;) nic méně jako obal yb se myslím dal použít sášek na brýle. prodávájí se všude možně, stojí kolem 30-ti korun a jsou kvalitní a celkem pěkné. Tak jsem to trošku měřil nejspíš se tam FR vejde.<br />
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=== Doplňující informace ===<br />
* '''Vyjádření Pulster.de na objednávku většího množství telefonů:'''<br />
Hello,<br />
<br />
on OpenMoko wiki they announced: "Every 10 pack, will come with<br />
a box of stuff. 10 pouches and 10 head sets." Will this offer<br />
also be available in your shop? Some discount and bonus gadgets?<br />
I already want to order 20-30 phones to Czech Republic, so I am<br />
trying to find the best way, how to order this amount. Either<br />
from USA or from EU.<br />
<br />
Thank you, Martin Senkerik<br />
<br />
Hello,<br />
<br />
thanks a lot for asking. Right now we dont have Freerunner in<br />
stock, so no idea about earphones/pouches, sorry.<br />
I am happy to provide Czech users with OpenMokos. No customs,<br />
no paperwork, I have a lot CZ customers.<br />
Allow me to put you on the info list once it is avalaible and you<br />
get clear infos about all. We can work out free shipping and <br />
maybe some goodies.<br />
<br />
<br />
heres the standard info text:<br />
<br />
The new modell is called "Freerunner" (version GTA02).<br />
It will be available end of June 2008. We try to aim 300-350 EUR<br />
sales price.<br />
Once it's ready to ship, you willfind it in our shop.<br />
We do not make pre-orders of items we dont have in hands,<br />
so please understand. Once the Freerunner is in stock, ready to<br />
ship, we will send you a one-time info mail (we do not send<br />
you any spam, dont worry).<br />
<br />
Of course we are happy you bookmark us and come back to check<br />
for the nice Freerunner. Please find a small datasheet here:<br />
http://www.pulster.de/info/pdas/openmoko/freerunner-flyer.pdf<br />
<br />
<br />
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,<br />
Christoph Pulster<br />
<br />
* '''Moje komunikace s pobočkou FIC v ČR:'''<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
Taiwanský FIC v nejbližších dnech začne s prodejem mobilního telefonu<br />
Neo FreeRunner (www.openmoko.com). Chci se zeptat, jestli bude možné případné<br />
reklamace a opravy řešit u vás?<br />
<br />
Zatím není známý přesný způsob distribuce tohoto telefonu pro Evropu<br />
a Českou republiku. Nebude vaše pobočka zapojena do distribuční sítě?<br />
<br />
Děkuji za odpověď, Martin Šenkeřík<br />
Odpověď:<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
FIC CZ s.r.o. v těchto měsících přechází pod Foxconn CZ.<br />
V případě reklamace či informací se obracejte přímo na FIC TW.<br />
Kontaktní osobou na Zákaznickém oddělení je<br />
<br />
Mr. James Chang<br />
Customer Service Department<br />
Te.: +886 2 8751 8751 ext.6196<br />
James_chang@fic.com.tw<br />
<br />
S pozdravem<br />
<br />
Jarka Ripplova<br />
<br />
* '''Dotaz na celní úřad ohledně zpracování zásilky:'''<br />
Věc: Informace<br />
<br />
K Vaší žádosti o informaci týkající se hromadného dovozu zásilky pro osobní<br />
potřebu více příjemců Vám sdělujeme:<br />
<br />
Za zásilku zboží neobchodní povahy se ve smyslu celních předpisů považují<br />
zásilky, které jsou dováženy příležitostně a které obsahují výhradně zboží<br />
určené k osobnímu užití příjemců nebo jejich rodin, přičemž toto zboží nesmí<br />
povahou ani množstvím svědčit o obchodním úmyslu dovozce. Z uvedeného<br />
vyplývá, že tzv. sběrná zásilka nemůže být považována za zásilku zboží<br />
neobchodní povahy, i když obsah je určen pro osobní potřebu soukromých osob.<br />
Při dovozu zásilky obchodní povahy je zásilka zadržena při vstupu na celní<br />
území EU a příjemce vyzván k předložení celního prohlášení. Celní formality<br />
uskutečňuje příjemce, který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost.<br />
<br />
Pro zboží zařazené v některé z podpoložek čísla 8517 je celním sazebníkem EU<br />
stanovena sazba cla 0 %. Při dovozu zásilky zboží obchodního charakteru<br />
celní orgány posuzují, zda zboží nepodléhá zvláštnímu řízení podle zákona č.<br />
38/1994 Sb., o zahraničním obchodu s vojenským materiálem. Vedle cla se při<br />
propuštění dovezeného zboží do volného oběhu v tuzemsku vyměřuje DPH v<br />
základní sazbě 19 %. Základem pro vyměření DPH je cena, za kterou bylo zboží<br />
prodáno do EU, ke které se přičtou náklady na dopravu zásilky do EU, podle<br />
příslušných ustanovení zákona o DPH.<br />
<br />
Celní dluh, jehož součástí je i DPH, se vyměří v českých korunách z celní<br />
hodnoty převedené na české koruny v kurzu platném pro příslušné období.<br />
Aktuální kurzy měn jsou uveřejněny na stránkách Celní správy České republiky<br />
www.cs.mfcr.cz cestou Servis - Kurzovní lístky.<br />
<br />
== To open Colombia groupsales ==<br />
<br />
I wan to open the Colombia-Bogotá group sales.<br />
I want Neo advanced, no matter if the rest of the people wants the other.<br />
my mail: arawaco@ieee.org<br />
Ideas are welcome<br />
<br />
== USA ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#San_Francisco_Bay_Area San Francisco Bay Area] ===<br />
If everyone agrees [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm I] will pick up and pay for the 10 units from Fremont.<br />
Payment Options...<br />
* Bring cash to the arranged meetup to get the device. (I can arrange to meet up with individuals if needed)<br />
* We need to pay CA tax so keep that in mind, I'll try to get the exact price prior to pickup<br />
* Make sure you have confirmed with me your intention to buy the unit, the priority order will be the order that the list is currently in, any unconfirmed member of the group will be slipped to the bottom of the list on the day the units are available<br />
<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/dufflebunk dufflebunk]<br />
I'm all alone in the second group. I guess if anyone from the first group has to drop out I'll be happy to take their place. I would prefer cash (or cheque), Paypal sucks. <br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/krid krid said: ]<br />
I'm in for cash, just tell me where to show up. However, unless Steve says it'll be massively boring, I'd like to go to Fremont and see the facility. I'll be out of town at OSCON the last week of July, so hopefully we'll be able to do this before then. If not, I'll make arrangements with Jim.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm Jim said: ]<br />
I'll let everyone know when I'm going to Fremont to pick them up (Sounds like the first week in July), so anyone who wants to tag along is welcome and we can distribute them then and there.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Cry_Regarder Cry Regarder] At the time I moved myself from separate monterey to san francisco, there were 8 folks listed. That was 27 May. Jim Lutz wasn't in the list yet. Accordingly, I moved one of mine from the post 10 to above and swapped Jim Lutz down.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Xeromist Kelley said: ]<br />
That's fine Jim. I didn't ask to be given any special treatment and I want everything to remain fair. If we are able to form 2 full groups are you willing to buy for both or will we need to select a distributor for group 2 as well?<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm Jim said: ]<br />
I suspect we will need a second coordinator for the second group, $4k is a lot to fork out at one time, $8k is out of the question for me! However right now I think we can get everyone who has replied a unit from the first 10, unless one of the non-repliers contacts me before we pick up we won't need a second group.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Cry_Regarder Cry Regarder] I emailed "Steve" at openmoko and he said that they are working on the logistics for bulk buys of fractional case lots for quantities over 10. I don't know if they'll sort it out before they arrive though. Another possibility is to join in with LA...they'll probably appreciate having them picked up.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/kenrestivo ken said: ]<br />
I'm not sure how to order one. I guess I just make an entry here? I want one and I'll pay cash. Just tell me where and when to meet. I can do it this weekend or July 4th weekend. Are the units REALLY shipping? Or will it be months before they arrive?<br />
<br />
<br />
Discuss any other ideas here.</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Group_salesTalk:Group sales2008-06-26T13:53:24Z<p>Mivaho: /* The Netherlands */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
== England ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}<br />
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?<br />
<br />
:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.<br />
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
::Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====<br />
<br />
I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?<br />
<br />
I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?<br />
<br />
In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(<br />
<br />
:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] - [mailto:stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk let me know] if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
<br />
Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)<br />
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.<br />
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but<br />
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}<br />
<br />
<br />
Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php<br />
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen<br />
<br />
Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van <br />
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd <br />
zou willen zien worden.<br />
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie <br />
over het te leveren artikel.<br />
<br />
Uw naam J. de Haan<br />
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
Artikelinformatie<br />
Merk openmoko<br />
Naam freerunner<br />
Website openmoko.com<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen <br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor <br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail <br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
E-mailcontact - verzonden<br />
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.<br />
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)<br />
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not<br />
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out <br />
on Utrecht CS :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)<br />
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? <br /><br />
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1." <br />
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.<br />
<br />
{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will have 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Belgium Belgium]. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.<br />
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:<br />
<br />
Geachte heer,<br />
<br />
Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
<br />
Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx<br />
Product Management / Technical Support<br />
<br />
Salland Automatisering<br />
<br />
Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post. <br /><br />
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.<br />
from Jan de Haan <haan.j.de@gmail.com><br />
to inkoop@azerty.nl,<br />
date Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM<br />
subject Openmoko - Freerunner<br />
mailed-by gmail.com<br />
<br />
hide details 8:52 PM (0 minutes ago)<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen<br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor<br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
Een importeur schijnt trisoft.de te zijn. Let wel: dit product is<br />
nog niet op de markt,<br />
al zijn de laatste test productie runs klaar.<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail<br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken. <br /><br />
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):<br />
<br />
=== Votes for a reseller ===<br />
{|border=1<br />
!Name<br />
!Trisoft<br />
!Open Source Nieuws Nederland<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (Subject to a solution for warranty)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[Special:Emailuser/User:PWerken|Peter van de Werken]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (note: I'll buy 2 Freerunners)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (If warranty is OK)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|'''Total'''<br />
|<br />
|10<br />
|}<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:<br />
Beste Yorick,<br />
<br />
Bedankt voor je mail en informatie; ik kende de toestellen niet, maar zou ze<br />
best eens van dichtbij willen bekijken. Het 'developer' model lijkt me dan<br />
echter weer minder interessant voor ons; het 'consumer' model zou eind 2008<br />
op de markt moeten komen?<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
With kind regards,<br />
<br />
Michael Brus<br />
Manager PDAshop<br />
<br />
<br />
Coolblue<br />
Molenbaan 11 . 2908 LL Capelle a/d IJssel . www.coolblue.nl<br />
<br />
Coolblue is...<br />
MP3shop.nl . PDAshop.nl . Digicamshop.nl . GPSshop.nl .<br />
Smartphoneshop.nl . Consoleshop.nl . Telefoonshop.nl . meer...<br />
<br />
Should I forward this to Michael Shiloh?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 07/05} I'll vote to wait until there are actually phones shipping, until that time, the more people we gather here, and maybe other dealers, the better the deal we get(I hope).<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 08/05} <br />
Well, I want to have the phone as soon as possible. The best deal ever isn't my main concern.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 13/05}<br />
I've been browsing the mailing list, and found [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/016971.html this post] from Openmoko's Steve. Group sales have 28 days of DOA (Dead On Arrival) coverage, and single sales have 14 days of DOA coverage. Which I think is reasonable. BTW, I don't think there will be a better deal than the $369 per phone for the 10-pack. <br /><br />
We currently have enough people to fill 2 10-packs, which is awesome! <br /><br />
What we do need to figure out are the import costs, and the shipping costs. (it's shipped via UPS, if I recall correctly from the mailing list.)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 22/05}<br />
<br />
I wouldn't be too sure that this is financially going to be the best deal. This message in the community mailing list (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017668.html) shows interesting info regarding Pulster.<br />
----<br />
''Christph Pulster wrote:<br />
''> about 10 pack orders - we try to be cheaper than the 10-order-<br />
''> pack-price ! so no need to collect ten local buyers.<br />
<br />
''This sounds so good...! I'm waiting for official news (and maybe infos<br />
about the gifts too)...''<br />
----<br />
'''I checked their webpage and they advertise with OpenMoko Freerunner 299 eur'''<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 22/05} I checked their website too and it says 'Sobald der Freerunner wirklich lieferbar ist, ist er an dieser Stelle mit konkretem Preis zu finden und real bestellbar.' Which could mean that the price will be something other than 299 euro.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I like the pulster deal a lot, even if they are the same price as buying the 10 pack in the US the warranty part is a lot better seeing Germany is next door to us. Only thing is that you would mis out on the pouch and headset, dunno if that's such a great loss. And they say they will be going under the price of the US 10 pack order if you order the 10 from them. So maybe a vote on yes or no to the pouch/headset deal? Maybe we should check if with Pulster a group order of 10+ will always give the discount. Like 22 will get the same discount and that we are not forced in getting groups of ten people.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I wrote an e-mail to pulster with the questions so I will post the answer here when I get one.<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 24/05} <br />
The pouch and headset are not that important IMO. I guess most join the group sale for convenience and reduce cost. But maybe I'm wrong.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
<br />
'''From the community mailing list again:<br />
<br />
'''Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote [to Pulster - Ed.]:<br />
''>> 1. Do you know when you'll be approximately able to define a price?<br />
''>> 2. The Freerunner will be shipped with extra goodies (generally<br />
''>> given only to people buying a 10-pack (ie: pouch and headset)?<br />
''> <br />
<br />
'''From Pulster [Ed.]<br />
<br />
''> Price fix ASAP I have the units in own hands/stocks.<br />
''> 299-319 eur is really realistic.<br />
''> <br />
''> All goodies included at PULSTER !<br />
''> <br />
''> Also can be bought a lot accessories extra very soon (debug board, pens, <br />
''> cases etc)<br />
''> <br />
''> you see, I will make all your wishes true :)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/05} Yeah, read that message in the weekend, no reply to my mail at this moment but seeing this message straight from pulster I would say that we should buy directly from pulster as a group. Warranty wise it's better as well.<br />
<br />
399 U.S. dollars is about 253 Euros and including VAT that would become 301.07 Euro so pulster with their price being 299 Euro (see below) has a good price and for 10 and more there is a discount just like in the US. I would propose to take the dutch group sale to Pulster.<br />
<br />
The following mail from Chis Pulster was on the list also.<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
I am Chris from pulster.eu - my hello to this great community.<br />
<br />
May I add some points from my side:<br />
<br />
- Freerunner - ready to order ASAP it is available. We do not<br />
take pre-orders of items we dont have in hands. For a one-time info- <br />
mail once the Freerunner is ready to order, please just email me <br />
mailto: christoph@pulster.de<br />
- we aim a Freerunner price tag of 299 EUR incl. VAT<br />
- shipping worldwide with DHL, Europa 15 EUR, World 30 EUR postage<br />
- soon we offer accessories for Freerunner like spare batterie, charger, <br />
Headset, pouch and also the debug-board<br />
- group-sales make local communities, that is wonderful. I am happy to <br />
sell Freerunner separately or in packages.<br />
<br />
Many thanks,<br />
Chris<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
Indeed let's take the dutch group sale to Pulster. We are with 22 so we should be able to make a good deal regarding the goodies. And in that way no-one has to take any financial risk.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 28/05} My guess is, that for a group buy at pulster there is still one entity needed for buying the devices. The thing is that with pulster, as with the US deal, the waranty should be per person and not named for the buying entity.<br />
<br />
:I don't think that we need to do the 'group buy' at Pulster. You can just buy the device at 299 a piece there. I would like to have the pouch though, if they can assure me that the pouch and other goodies would be included in the deal (because they of course could make a number of 'groupbuys' for the entire customer base), then count me in.--[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
:: Your absolutly right on this one, been thinking about it and the possible discount we would be getting would wasted on shipping within the Netherlands again. Like you said, if there are goodies involved it's a different deal of course :) . --[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
:::So let's start negotiating with Pulster regarding the goodies. We can bring in 22 customers, so he has something to win. It might be important to know whether Pulster takes credit card payments. I cannot find that option on their webpage and an electronic banktransfer will add another 15 (?) euro.[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
<br />
:::: Bank payments to germany are free of charge, at least for my bank (Rabobank).{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]]}<br />
<br />
:::: I'm afraid they don't accept credit cards (from their [http://www.pulster.de/engl/imprint.htm About Us page]:<br />
<br />
We do not accept any other payment option like PayPal, Reembourse/Cash-on-delivery (COD) payments, <br />
direct CreditCard payments, any kind of cheques, western union, postal money orders, cash. Please dont <br />
ask, we do not accept none of this options thanks to a very few but very expensive scams. <br />
<br />
:::: Nice double negative in there, btw. But still, 299+15 is less than 350 or 400. ;) --[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
::::: If it is going to be a group sale (if pulster provides the goodies) it would be (discounted price * 22 + transfer rate + (21 * shipping within Holland)) [[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
:::::: Are you assuming that we'd get a discounted price when we order in bulk? I have not seen any evidence that Pulster will lower the price even more, when done like that. But indeed, we'd have 22 * whatever-price-the-freerunner-will-get-at-Pulster + shipping costs... but then we are back at the discussion of how to deal with the warranty. Will Pulster give separate invoices for each of the phones in the pack? --[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 02/06} Okay I got an answer from Chris Pulster. I had 2 main questions that he answered and they were 1. Will the pouch and other goodies be included with a group sale as would be if we were to buy in the states. 2. Is a group sale, like in the states, limited to groups of ten or will the discount be for all phones bought in bulk. This is what he had to say:<br />
<br />
about your question: at the moment we dont know about pouch/headsets <br />
included or not. I will tell you a more reliable answer if Freerunners <br />
are in stocks.<br />
my discount system and sales are full flexibel (no ten-pack limitations)<br />
let us talk and we find a nice offer for the dutch OpenMoko community !<br />
<br />
<br />
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,<br />
Christoph Pulster<br />
<br />
We will have to take a look at what the discount will be and if it is worth it considering we will have extra shipping cost in holland.<br />
<br />
If the shipping costs will be too high, i would be willing to pick the phones up myself, if my expenses are covered. We have to figure out further distribution though. {[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 03/06}<br />
<br />
{[[User:Atilla|Atilla Filiz]] 19/06} Don't we have a chance for direct shipping from Taiwan? The phones are produced there anyway.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 20/06} We could but the problem would be that we would be buying it for consumer prices where Pulster buys a whole lot, and being a reseller pays a reseller price, or better yet a distributors price. So my bet is that we would be better of getting it from pulster than from Taiwan because that would not be much cheaper then getting it from the States.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Atilla|Atilla Filiz]] 22/06} Any news from Pulster or any other possible importer yet?<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/06} I got some news from Christoph just now but am waiting for permission to post it here, nothing earth chattering but just want his permission seeing it is a private e-mail. I'll keep you posted.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/06}<br />
<br />
Okay this is the e-mail Christopher from pulster.de wrote to me this afternoon:<br />
<br />
- our price of 299 EUR for Openmoko Freerunner is already rock-bottom, so we can not make further discounts, my apologises. What we can offer is free shipping <br />
worldwide if you order 10 units or more at once.<br />
<br />
- delivery time: same day money cleares we ship with registered and insured DHL airmail parcel. Transit time inside Europe is c.3 days, outside Europe 5 days.<br />
<br />
- customs: inside EU community there is no hassle with customs and no taxes/VAT will be added. Its all included our price of 299 eur. <br />
Outside EU community (Switzerland, Norway, USA, Asia) we will reduce German VAT giving a buying price of 249 EUR excl. VAT. Please note your local VAT will be added.<br />
<br />
- warranty: we give full 2 years warranty period. Please note, this is legal law for European business and compare it with own imports from Asia/USA.<br />
For warranty issues we are happy to include a separate invoice for each person of the GroupSale.<br />
<br />
- accessories included: its identical to the single unit order. Any other accessories (Cases/Headset etc.) can be ordered in our shop www.pulster.eu - we already have stocks.<br />
<br />
My first reaction was that seeing this it would be better to order as an individual because the only benefit of the free shipping would be lost because we would have to re-distribute it in Holland so that would add some shipping costs again. That's what I wrote to Chris and he replied that another benefit of a group order is that a group order has precedence before a shop sale. So My guess is ( and I hope to get that confirmed by Chris ASAP ) that if we as a group order at pulster.de before the shop opens, those phones will be reserved for us. When you order as an individual there is a chance you will miss out on the first batch and would have to wait until Chris gets another batch of phones.<br />
<br />
So my advice would be, if we want to get our hands on a Openmoko FreeRunner as one of the first in Holland we would need to buy as a group. Again, we, Open Source Nieuws Nederland, are willing to be the mediator. The price would be the Euro 299 plus shipping costs within Holland and the money needs to be in our bank account before we pay pulster.de we can not afford to pay in advance. How do we communicate? Should I open an e-mail adres fot this? Do any of you want to do the group thing with pulster, or buy as an individual or take your money to the states?<br />
<br />
SeeYa,<br />
Michel<br />
<br />
{[[User:nicolas|Nico Veenkamp]] 26/06}. I am willing to group my order together with the rest using Open Source Nieuws Nederland as intermediate. Specifically to have the priority advantage of the group order mentioned by Michel to get my hands as soon as possible on the Neo FreeRunner. I would suggest to Michel to put order details on this page and open a specific email adres to receive orders.<br />
<br />
I'm also in on that groupsale. Too bad it doesn't include the goodie bag, but that doesn't matter much. :) I'd suggest setting up an email address. You do need address details from the participants. :) <br /> Or do you prefer to set a date on which the Neos are handed to everyone in person? :) <br /> [ [[User:Madjo|MadJo]] 08:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC) ]<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/06}Count me in on the group sale too. My main interest is to get the neo as soon as possible and to have an individual tax receipt. Is that possible when i join in on the group sale?<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/06} Okay, The following will happen. I will try and mail everyone on the group sale page (as long as people are using a registered username with e-mail address) and this talk page (when not on the group sale page) with the specifics, I will also mail to the community mail list with that message. Keep in mind, this will all take some time because first we need to give people a chance to "sign up", then to transfer money and then for us to transfer all that money to pulster. Then (when pulster has the money) the phones will be send to us and then they will be send to the people. So do not expect them to be with you within a few days after making the money transfer to us, if you want that then try your luck by buying it on your own and hope that there will enough in stock at pulster.de before you get there.<br />
<br />
We will be sending the phones with insured postage, this will put an extra Euro 7,95 on top of the Pulster.de price of Euro 299. It could be we have to do some extra wrapping, I'm waiting for an answer on that part by Pulster. We still need 10 or more buyers so if that number is not reached it is everyone for his/her self.<br />
<br />
Maybe we need to put something on the group sale page?<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/06} Is it possible to verify at Pulster if they put individual receipts with the phones, or they just send one for the whole group?<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/06} To quote from the above mentioned mail from Pulster.de "For warranty issues we are happy to include a separate invoice for each person of the GroupSale" So that's okay.<br />
<br />
== Canada ==<br />
==== GTA (Toronto) ====<br />
{ --[[User:Argo|Argo]] 03:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC) }<br />
For group 1 it looks like they have actually gotten the 10 orders in? or am I them adding up wrong?<br />
<br />
== Croatia ==<br />
{--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 14:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)} '''ja ne bih da već sada radimo pan-balkansku grupu, iskreno sam iznenađen odazivom do sada, pa jedino možda ako ne skupimo dovoljno ljudi do kraja ovog tjedna...'''<br />
<br />
moj post sa hr.comp.os.linux upućen mnalisu;<br />
<br />
> BTW, ti si zapravo kontaktirao HULK i rekli su ti da bi to oni isli raditi i<br />
<br />
> gnjaviti se sa svim tim, ili ih cisto spominjes onako u smislu "pa oni su<br />
<br />
> dragi ljudi, sigurno ce besplatno uloziti mjesece svog zivota u to u zamjenu<br />
<br />
> za pivu" ?<br />
<br />
Davio sam ih malo zadnja dva dana na IRCu, i prema logu načelno su za<br />
da se narudžbe hendlaju preko njih. A i mislim da se ipak ne radi o<br />
mjesecima života bačenih za pivu, more like možda 2-3 sata za gajbu<br />
ili dvije :), hell ako je toliko teško napravit ću ja sve, učlanit se<br />
u HULK ako treba<br />
<br />
ali do toga trenutka ovako ja razmišljam:<br />
<br />
1.) skupimo 10 zainteresiranih<br />
2.) ja nazovem carinu i agenciju za telekomunikacije<br />
3.) pitamo openmoko za shipping estimate<br />
4.) ako su svi i dalje za, skupljanje sredstava i na kraju narudžba<br />
<br />
dakle ništa nije obligatory, idemo step by step, onog trenutka kada se<br />
prijavi 10 ljudi na wikiju ja zovem nadležne službe, pa ćemo vidit di<br />
stojimo sa uvozom i tim''<br />
<br />
nemoj odmah "worst case scenario" :)<br />
<br />
>> mozda da se malo na elitesecurity.org pokrene rasprava?<br />
<br />
--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 10:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC) svakako, ja sam za<br />
<br />
== Czech Republic ==<br />
Distribuční seznam, základní informace naleznete v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Czech_Republic GroupSales]<br />
<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Diskuze Diskuze]<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Dopl.C5.88uj.C3.ADc.C3.AD_informace Doplňující informace]<br />
<br />
=== Diskuze ===<br />
''Martin Holec''> Máme tu 4x ze Zlína, co kdyby někdo jel do Brna pro 4ks a ve Zlíně by se rozdělili?<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> jak jsem psal, já do Zlína jezdívám, a od května do září budu ve Zlíně velmi často, takže se Zlínem není vůbec problém.<br />
<br />
Jinak už se objevily nějaké termíny. Jestli jsem to dobře pochopil, tak 9.5. by už mohla začít masová výroba a brzy na to by měl začít prodej...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak by měl vlastně vypadat? Takový ten bíly se mně moc nelíbí. Radši bych měl [http://http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:FIC-neo1973_small.jpg černý].<br />
<br />
''Michal Pěnka''> Protože jsem jedenáctý a nevím, jestli bude možné objednat 11 kusů nebo jen po desítkách, domluvím se s Tomem Vargou později (jestli by byl ochotný pro převoz do Prahy), každopádně bych také raději ten černý.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak to tak tady pročítám tak to půjde objednat za zvýhodněnou cenu (+pytlík? a headset) opravdu jenom po desítkách. Ale IMHO když této stránce zvedneme popularitu (případně přiberem Slováky) tak jich budem nakonec brát minimálně dvacet ;) Mně osobně připadá datum 9.5. hodně optimistické.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> FreeRunner bude pouze v jedné barevné variantě, a to černý. To datum 9.5. mám [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates odsud]<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>Nemáte někdo fotku freerunnera ? na wiki jsem zatím našel jenom fotky GTA1-čky<br />
<br />
''David Kozub''>> Jelikoz se vyskytuju ve Zline i v Praze, muzu zajistit prevoz do Prahy.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No tak například tady to máš dokonce na videu: http://youtube.com/watch?v=k9QLdK6pFCI ;-) Ale jinak i na wiki se povalují fotky FreeRunnera. Například hned ta první na hlavní stránce ;-)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> To video je parádní. Co se týče té fotky z úvodu wiki, myslel jsem, že je to jenom render. Jinak jak jsem tak bloudil po stránkách české pošty - nejlevněj to nejspíš vyjde poslat jako profibalík za myslím že 64korun. Za dobírku se něco ještě připlácí. Balík je pojištěný do 100 000. [http://www.cpost.cz:80/jetspeed/portal/media-type/html/user/anon/page/default.psml/js_pane/sluzbyonline%2Czasilky?docid=370&calc_lb0=10424&calc_cb0=1 více zde]<br />
<br />
ad. '''Praha (Čechy):'''<br />
<br />
''Tom Varga''>> Pokoušel jsem se vyčíst z mailing listu, jak je to s tou množstevní slevou - co jsem z toho pochopil, tak by neměl být problém objednat množství nedělitené desíti, ale ty kusy navíc jsou pak [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016432.html bez slevy] a [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016202.html bez bonusu]; pořád by se to ale vyplatilo skrze poštovné. Prozatím bych navrhl, aby se zájemci z Prahy (Čech) zapsali / potvrdili smazáním otazníku v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu], možná něco podobného pro Slovensko - momentálně to vypadá, že bude snazší sehnat 20 zájemců celkem a taky by se tím mohla situace trochu vyjasnit. Osobně jsem schopen zajistit dovoz z Brna do Prahy, Liberce, Jablonce n.N. a přilehlých končin. Případné návrhy sem ;)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>> Řekl bych že čím větší balík poletí za Ameriky sem tím levněj to vyjde. Pokud není poštovné na gramy. 20-ti zájemců se určitě dočkáme. Když počítám Františka Horínka z Bratislavy tak je nás 18. Co se týče bonusů na headsetu moc nelpím ale ten pytel by se mně vážně hodil. Často v kapse kombinuju mobil a klíče nebo šroubovák...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>> Poštovné samozřejmě není na gramy, ale na libry, neboli každých započatých 0.45 kg se platí, plus se poštovné započítává do cla, mimochodem taková zásilka asi jen tak přes celnici neprojde, takže je možné, že nikdo (příjemce) bude muset dodat na celnici případné dokumenty dokladující hodnotu zasílaného zboží.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>> Tak dle "platného" celního sazebníku by se clo nemělo platit. Viz [http://disk.jabbim.cz/ivir@jabbim.com/celni_sazebnik.pdf Sazebník] strana 568. Tedy by se hradilo pouze DPH. Aspoň si myslím, že 20 telefonů jako "dárek" asi neprojde.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>>> No tím lépe, ale tak já to beztak myslel jako celý celní dluh a to dph je právě i z poštovného.<br />
<br />
''Miloslav Machotka''> Koukám že jsem trochu zaspal dění. :) V [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu] jsem se připsal k Praze. Mám to nejblíž, jsem z Vlašimi, ale jinak jsem pro to schopen dojet i do Brna. Jsem pro to aby se to vyřešilo, pokud možno, po desítkách a pak to rozvést (rozeslat) po Čechách a Slovensku. Bonusy se asi většině lidí hodí.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>>>>> DPH musíme taky platit ?? To je mrzuté. Kolik mají DPH slováci ? nevyšlo by to levněj poslat do Bratislavy a stama ''"propašovat"'' k nám ? Když už máme ten šengen... Nevrátí nám třeba amíci DPH které za to zaplatili u nich ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>>>>> Co je mi známo, tak při obchodování mimo zemi se DPH neúčtuje a účtuje se až v cílové zemi. Dle rok starého článku na měšci je základní sazba stejná, tj. 19%. Od DPH by to šlo odprostit pouze pokud by na tom balíku bylo napsáno, že se jedná o dárek. Pak se na to daň neuplatní. Jakmile se mi povede najít ustanovení/článek, tak jsem dám odkaz.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No ono je stále ještě otázkou, odkud to vůbec budou posílat. Protože sem někde viděl informace, že se budou snažit zásobovat Evropu z nějakého centra v Evropě. O tom dárku jsem taky slyšel, ale prej to taky není zaručený způsob. Celníci se do toho můžou podívat, a uvalit na to daň podle vlastního rozhodnutí (prej). Jinak ale je tu ještě možnost, že by nám to někdo dovezl. Nevíte jak to funguje v tom případě?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>To centrum v Evropě bylo v plánu avšak levněji jim to vyjde posílání z Ameriky, takže bude k dispozici jen jedno centrum v USA. Ohledně toho dárku jsem doposud četl, že jeho částka nesmí přesáhnout 55€, jinak je normálně proclíván. Při osobním převozu jsou nastaveny limity výše viz [http://www.celnisprava.cz/CmsGrc/Cestovani-a-nakupy/Jak-se-chovat/mimo-eu.htm celní správa].<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Kdyby vezl dva tři tak by možná ukecal že je to dárek ale dvacet... clo vem čert to bude nanejvýš 3,5% což není taková pálka. Spíš kdy se to DPH z toho platí ? Hned na celnici nebo musím podat něco jako daňové přiznání ?<br />
* No tak zatím jsem zjistil že nejspíš jediná šance jak se osvobodit od cla a DPH je že všeci sedem do letadla a zajedem si pro to. Limit je 6000kč na jednu osobu starší 15-ti let.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mares''>>>> Clo se na tento druh zboží nevztahuje. Platí se pouze české DPH, který ti celníci vyměří z ''ceny zboží + doprava + clo'', pak ti v případě fyzické osoby zašlou na tvou poštu, kde uhradíš DPH jako dobírku. U podnikatele je to trošku jiné. VAT (čili americké DPH) na zboží nebude uvaleno, jelikož zboží je vyváženo z USA.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No a dá se tohle spočítat předem? Abysme mohli stanovit cenu?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> No dokud nebude jasne kolik bude stat postovne (typ + vaha) a jaky bude kurs dolaru, tak presna cena asi tezko.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>No co. Tak ti každý pošlem sedm tisíc s tím, že potom přebytky rozdělíš do obálek a budeš předávat s každým telefonem obálku. Jinak to asi dost dobře nepůjde. Jedině že by nám to sem dopravila česká pobočka FIC-u/foxconn. Ale to je podle mně nepravděpodobné.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>JJ take myslim, ze bych dal predbeznou cenu 7K s tim, ze uz je poslem, at muzes pruzne zareagovat a ne pak cekat az vsichni poslou.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>> Kdyby se zase Steve nebo někdo vyjádřil v jakém je to stavu a přidal předběžný odhad kdy se začne prodávat. Teďka je to těžko. Můžou ho vydat zítra ale taky třeba i za půl roku pokud se objeví nějaký složitý problém.<br />
Ještě k té předběžné ceně - dolar není za 15 korun ale za 16,1-16,2 korun I s DPH se do těch 7000 nespíš nevejdem. Jestli že se domluvíme žo začnem posílat peníze tak navrhuju posílat 7500. IMHO dolar už níž nepůjde.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Co jsem se zatím díval na možnosti přepravy (DHL,Fedex,UPS,USPS), tak nejvýhodněji vychází USPS ([http://www.usps.com/ usps.com]), kdy se pohybujeme kolem částky 120$ i s pojištěním (kdyby to bylo cca 10kg což pochybuji). Bohužel maximální pojištění činí 5 000$, přičemž celková částka balíku vychází na cca 7 580$ . U ostatních jsem ohledně pojištění nenašel zmínku, přičemž poštovné vycházelo většinou přes 500$. Z pohledu pojištění by bylo vhodné objednávky rozdělit. Ještě bude záležet jaké poštovní služby nabídnou v e-shopu. Včera u ČSOB byla prodejní cena dolaru na 16,44Kč/$ a musím bohužel souhlasit, že lepší to už nebude. Jinak ceník je k dispozici na této adrese [http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781 http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781] .<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Teď mně napadlo - co kdyby jsem někde založili učet (nejlépe spořící) v dolarech a poslali to tam teď ? [http://www.mesec.cz/clanky/ucet-v-cizi-mene-ano-ale-kde/] Kdyby tak člověk věděl že pozítru neoznámí prodej...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>> Tak urcite bych pockal s placenim na nejake jistejsi vyjadreni, ale necekal bych na otevreni kramu, tehdy uz by chtelo, aby se to dalo hned objednat, co se tyka uctu neverim, ze dolar spadne, ale ani ze poroste a tak bych to neresil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vzhledem k množství objednávaného zboží bych možná už využil dopravních společností, které za nás provedou celní odbavení. Aspoň metodický pokyny k vyplnění JSD (jednotný správní doklad) nejsou triviální a zabere to minimálně půlden. Ukázku dokumentu jsme nalezl zde: [http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/ http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/].<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> Dole v tom dopisu z celního úřadu se píše: "který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost" to nikdo z nás má?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >> '''[http://www.trisoft.de/en_freerunner.htm Evropský Distributor]''', ale je celkem dražší.<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Což o to, [http://www.pulster.de/ tady] je o 50 euro levnější, ale nemyslím si, že to bude ve výsledku výhodnější.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>> Co jsem se díval do pokynů, tak to může vyplnit i fyzická osoba, jelikož každý způsobilý občan může provést obchodní činnost. Pouze nesmí být opakovaného rázu, tj. jednorázové obchody. Zkusím se tedy dotázat konkrétněji na tuto část. Ohledně toho evropského distributora nevím. Odhadem to vychází přes 1000 Kč dráž bez poštovného a bez bonusů. Jestliže se nám poradí vyřešit problém s celním úřadem, tak bych spíše volil objednávku z USA. Připadá mi, že tyhle obchody to jen objednají v USA, přijmou a přepošlou s přirážkou.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >>>> Take jsem pro USA, jen sem to nasel a ac ten od Radka Machulky je uz zajimavejsi tak verim, ze se dostanem i pod nej a jeste je tam ten obal a sluchatka.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Já jsem též pro USA. Ještě by bylo možné (teoreticky) zkusit si to objednat přes nějakého (mešího) obchodníka co bere věci od FIC-u<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''> Tož sem [[GroupSales#Aktu.C3.A1ln.C4.9B|vyhlásil konkurz]] na koordinátora pražské větve a snad se najde někdo kdo je schopen se vejít do těch zásadních bodů co jsem tam nastínil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Relativně požadavky splňuji. Mám studentský ČSOB účet mající limit na 1,5M, kartu Visa Classic, angličtinu zvládám na úrovni čtení technické dokumentace, bydlím na Barrandově a jabber též mám (ivir@jabbim.com). Jen tu důvěryhodnost nemám. :) S tím clem to bude ještě zajímavé, ale snad mi ohledně toho ještě poradí z celního úřadu. V nouzi mám k dispozici i OSVČ. :)<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Dle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017531.html příspěvku] bude dovoz zboží do USA zahájen někdy 1.června. K tomu je nutné připočítat min. týden až 3 než zboží dorazí do skladů. Z příspěvku teoreticky vyplývá, že bude i evropský HUB. Snad to bude za stejnou částku a s bonusy. :)<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>Podle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017607.html příspěvku] by měl webový shop odkazovat na us i eu a to vypadá čím dál nadějnějš co se týká poštovného aj cla.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' jestli to dobře překládám tak není jasné jakým způsobem to půjde z činy - jestli lodí nebo letadlem ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Ano, aspoň takto jsem to pochopil i já. Problémem je ta doba dodání. Jinak co se týká vyřízení JSD (cla), tak u zprostředkovatele [http://www.kama-eu.cz/ KAMA s.r.o.>, jež mi doporučil celní úřad, vychází na cca 1000 Kč viz ceník, což mi připadá přijatelné.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No mně ty informace od Steva přijdou vždycky nějaké zmatené. Nevědí jestli lodí nebo letadlem, ale odejít by to snad mělo až 1.6. (nebo co má znamenat to datum, v jeho zprávě), takže to ještě docela potrvá... :-(<br />
Jan Mareš: můžeš prosím popsat co přesně má být těch 1000Kč a jak se na to přijde? Já tomu pořád nějak nerozumím...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> <font color="gray">best case is I would start to test phones around the first of june. Then<br />
pack and ship.<br />
</font>1.6. začíná testovat telefony a potm je balit a odesílat.<br><br />
<font color=gray>The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically you<br />
build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy% pass the test, and the factory says.<br />
"good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on the<br />
test software, because that bad phone really was good." arrg.</font> Ale toto nějak moc nechápu.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vychází to takto: 250 Kč (vypracování JSD), 30 Kč (vypracování hodnoty), 250 Kč (jednani za deklaranta), 30 Kč (avízo) a pak asi ručení (350). Je to můj odhad a po konkrétním dotaze by měli sdělit částku. Asi tedy bude třeba připočítat poštovné (250 Kč). Zatím jsem jim napsal dotaz ohledně nepodnikající osoby s tímto množstvím, tak jsem zvědav kdy odpoví.<br />
Tu další část považuji za povzdychnutí, kdy jim vyrobili více telefonů z nichž jen část prošla a továrna chce tohle číslo minimalizovat a že dané chyby byly spíše SW povahy.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' Podle toho co píšeš bych řekl že by vyšlo levněj kdyby jsme brali všechny telefony dohromady.Jaké má výhody osamostatnění Prahy ?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' No nedokazeme pojistit 30telefonu na jejich cenu pri doprave, ale jinak pokud by to clo vyrizovala firma asi by to bylo vyhodnejsi.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Trochu mě znepokojují zprávy v community e-mail archivu, kde uvádějí, že openmoko e-shop využívá služeb UPS. U nich by nebyl problém s pojištěním, ale ty ceny. Cena je de facto konstantní na cca 600$ (při 10kg balíčku), takže pak by bylo vhodné objednávku shrnout dohromady. Pak by to vycházelo o cca 10$ na hlavu více. Snažím se přesvědčit otce jako OSVČ, že by byla objednávka napsaná na něj a tím pádem by odpadl problém s využitím výše uvedené společnosti od nichž jsem dostal zamítavé stanovisko ohledně "neobchodní zásilky".<br />
<br />
Pak už zbývá využít evropského distributora Pulster.de . Teoreticky mi vychází částka při dovozu z US na 7600 Kč a u Pulsteru na 7 660Kč bez poštovné. Avšak za předpokladu společné hromadné objednávky. V opačném případě je nutné připočíst u US objednávky cca tisícovku (při 10 lidech).<br />
<br />
Zapomněl jsem tedy dodat, že zboží by bylo v republice za 4-5 dnů + pár dnů na vyřízení celního řízení.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> veškeré spekulace jsou zatím velmi předběžné, protože ani sami prodejci ještě nemají jasno, za jakých podmínek budou FreeRunner prodávat. Každopádně Pulster se mi docela zamlouvá (viz níže), vypadá že s panem majitelem se dá rozumně domluvit. Asi mu řeknu že objednávám telefonů 40, aby byl kdyžtak ochoten větší slevy nebo nějakého zvýhodnění a nechám tu zásilku jenom rozdělit a poslat do Prahy a sobě... Ale jak říkám, pořád ještě je všechno předběžné, definitivně se rozhodne asi už během tohoto měsíce.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> Ještě jedna novinka: pan Christoph Pulster z pulster.de mně oznámil zahájení prodeje debug boardu za "lidovou" cenu 149€ což je docela rozdíl oproti 99$... Takže jak říkám, všechno jsou teď jenom teoretické úvahy jak objednávku zorganizovat. Ikdyž osobně dávám pulster.de naděje, myslím, že se na ceně jak debugboardu, tak telefonu, bude dát domluvit, stejně jako nulová cena za dopravu zní přijatelně :-)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Pražáků je docela nešťastý počet. Jediné co mně napadá je pokusit se domluvit s Plusterem že by vzal 4 desítky z toho nám přeposlal těch 34 a zbytek by si nechal a prodal. A taky chci poděkovat Martinu Šenkeříkovi za to že se o nás tak stará.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>Tak je otázkou jak vlastně Pulster bude fungovat. Jako evropský distributor by měl od openmoko odbržet třeba 500ks (na dluh), které pak prodává. Z tohoto pohledu je jedno jaký počet telefonů se objedná. Pochybuji, že ta distribuce je založena na tom, že mi mu zaplatíme a on to objedná z US skladu. Pak by se určitě lépe hodil nákup přímo z US, kdy skrze UPS by se vyřídily všechny formality s celním úřadem. Rozhodující je konečná cena u Pulsteru.<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Tak to vypada, ze si budeme moci vybrat: [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-June/019117.html list]<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Žel s ohledem na co nejnižší cenu jsou oba distributori mimo hru, kdy se pohybujeme s cenou kolem 8 700Kč, což je hnedle o tisícikorunu více než při objednání z US. Doufejme, že Pulster nahodí lepší cenu.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' > To je mrzuté. Vypadá to, že se všichni distributoři rozhodli, že si na tom namastí kapsu a spoléhají na to, že nic podobného neexistuje a že je to novinka...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >> Podle té dvojnásobné ceny debug boardu se dá soudit, že nám nic jiného než US nezbude,tyhle EU distributoři jsou fakt jen zlatokopové.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Doufám že je amíci nezančou dorovnávat.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík'' > Jak jsem už několikrát psal, na jakékoliv spekulace je pořád brzo, situace se stále vyvíjí -> pulster dnes debugboard oficiálně slevnil na 99€. Takže ještě pořád není rozhodnuto. Prostě počkáme s čím kdo přijde (případně distributory trošku nakopnu sám :-)). "Amíci" je rozhodně dorovnávat nezačnou, když od "amíků" to ti Evropští distributoři objednávají ;-)<br />
<br />
''Miloslav Machotka'' > K diskuzi o zvolení prodejce. Já jsem určitě pro Pulster. Cena je myslím dobrá a hlavně to ušetří Martinu Šenkeříkovi práci, které s náma má i tak dost. A pokud jsem to správně pochopil, řeší to i problém s počtem telefonů nedělitelným deseti. Všichni dostanou za svoje peníze totéž.<br />
<br />
''František Horínek'' > Veľmi si vážim to, čo pre nás Martin Šenkeřík robí ale mam pocit, že 299€ je viac ako $399 a potom sa stráca akákoľvek zľava. Neviete niekto koľko by stála doprava z USA?<br />
<br />
''Miloslav Machotka'' >> Podle dnešního kurzu to vychází následovně. 299€ = 7240 kč. 369$ = 5777kč * 1,19 DPH = 6875 kč. A to v tom nemáte dopravu a tu práci s vyřizováním. Nabídka Pulsteru mi přijde jako výhodná.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík'' >> Ok, myslel jsem že je to tu někde sepsané, ale radši to připomenu: 299€ (cca 7300Kč) je definitivní cena, to je cifra kterou dá každý z nás za telefon v případě objednávky od Pulstera. <br />
Naopak cena 369$ (cca 5830Kč) není ani zdaleka konečná. Připočítáme daň 19% a dostaneme se na cca 7000Kč. Stále ještě zbývá připočítat clo a poštovné (aspoň doufám, že jsem správně pochopil, co se podařilo zjistit ostatním). A to nepočítám pravděpodobné papírování a obíhání úřadů (ikdyž někdo myslím psal, že UPS to všechno řeší sama). Když už ne levněji, tak to vyjde minimálně na stejno... Kdyžtak mě doplňte/opravte, kdo se těmi cly zabýval hlouběji.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš'' > Hezky shrnuto. UPS veškeré papírování ohledně DPH a cla řeší. Telefony spadají do 0% cla, takže se platí jen DPH, které je však vypočítávané i s dopravou, která je je celkem vysoká, aspoň při vypůjčení odhadů od Švýcarů, tj. 3kg za 10 telefonů, tak poštovné bude činit přes 10 000Kč. Takže to vychází nastejno či díky klesajícímu euru i výhodněji. Navíc plusem je 2letá záruka, naproti jednoleté z US.<br />
<br />
''František Horínek'' >> Ďakujem za objasnenie na DPH som úplne zabudol. Máte pravdu je to výhodné<br />
<br />
''Luboš Podrázský'' >> Zdravím, tak jsem taky pro Pulster.de. Cena vyjde víceméně nastejno, méně starostí pro organizátory, delší záruka a jestli se tím vyřeší i počet kusů nedělitelný 10-ti, tak asi neni co řešit.<br />
<br />
''Michal Pěnka'' > Podle všech informací tady a na hlavní stránce groupsales se také přikláním k pulster. Dvouletá záruka není zanedbatelná. Už se těším :)<br />
<br />
''Karel Volný'' > Pokud od Pulster dostaneme totéž, jako bychom dostali z USA, tak těch případných pár korun navíc klidně obětuju ve prospěch jednodušší organizace.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' > jestli jsem dobře pochopil zprávu na [[Community Updates]] tak by se 4.Července mělo začít prodávat. (...) Jak vůbec bude probíhat potenciální vyřizování reklamace ? Já teda doufám že při prvních kusech budou číňani odpočatí a budou dělat kvalitně, ale při mém štěstí úplně vidím jak to zapnu a ono to zasmrdí...<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Co se týče objednávky, já osobně bych počkal na zahájení prodeje, t.j. na dobu, kdy bude jasné kdo a za jakých podmínek bude FR prodávat. Je pochopitelné, že Pulster.de nemůže potvrdit konečnou cenu, protože si ji víceméně vycucal z prstu.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš'' > Pulster předobjednávky nebere, tady jde spíše o stanovení částky, kterou Martin bude vybírat, aby se vracely jen drobné. Jde o urychlení objednávky, aby na nás vyšli ty univerzální stylusy. :) Ještě je nutné připočíst cca 3 dny na převod peněz na jejich účet. Ohledně té reklamace, tak při tomto způsobu objednání je nutné reklamované zboží zaslat do Pulsteru, kde bude reklamace vyřizována. Šlo by to přímo u FICu, ale české zastoupení prochází převzetím, viz vyjádření níže. Co jsem doposud zachytil, tak všechny FR jsou před balením testovány na funkčnost, takže může dojít k poškození jedině při přepravě, což bychom měli zachytit při přebírání zboží v Brně. Dle dostupných fotek balení jsou FR bytelně baleni, takže ani toto by nemělo hrozit.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >> Jasně že dělají všecko proto aby byl počet reklamací co nejnižší, konec konců šetří tak peníze sami sobě, ale jsou věci které se dost dobře odzkoušet nedají. Naštěstí FR nemá žádné klouby nebo kryty které by se časem mohly rozpadnout takže mi snad vydrží aspoň 5 let. (...) není jedno jestli se vrací 5korun nebo pětistovka ?<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Já spíš tlumil to nadšení z pulster.de jako nejvýhodnějšího prodejce. Taky si nemyslím, že by nějaký prodejce byl potenciálně vhodnější z pohledu uplatňování případných reklamací.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >> Tak pluster láká dvouletou zárukou.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >> Jestli to s Plusterem bude fungovat tak, že pošlu 7500 (tj 300EUR) a dostanu za to FR tak, sice nerad, ale oželím i ten obal. Ono z USA to nejspíš stejně nevyjde o moc levněj. Jestli vůbec. Pokud vezmu 369USD s kurzem 16Kč a k tomu 19% DPH tak jmse rázem na sedmi tisících a to jsme ještě nezaplatili poštovné, na které se to DPH taky vzathuje, + přpadné poplatky za bůhví co.<br />
Já jsem pro pluster.<br />
<br />
''Vojtěch Vozáb'' >> Asi bych taky byl pro pulster, protože dokud napevno neurčí cenu tak objednávka není závazná (opravte mě jestli se pletu), takže kdyby nějak zásadně zdražil, může se přinejhorším objednávka zrušit a objednat z Ameriky. Hlavně by bylo dobré vyřešit to rychle, pro mě je poslední termín kdy můžu zaplatit ve čtvrtek 26. června a pak až 4. července, mezi tím jsem pryč. To by sice mohlo stačit, protože prodej imho stejně dříve než 4. nezačne, ale bylo by samozřejmě lepší mít jistotu a shromáždit peníze v předstihu.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík'' > S Vojtou jsme to pořešili. A teď abysme zabili nějaký čas, než dorazí telefony k distributorům, bych se vás chtěl zeptat, jestli vám stačí, když číslo účtu pak pošlu mailem, hodím na svůj server a napíšu na wiki? Jestli se to někomu zdá málo bezpečné, navrhněte prosím lepší způsob.<br />
<br />
''František Horínek'' > Ja si osobne myslím, že mail podpísaný pgp-čkom určite nič nepokazíte. Tiež by nebolo zle hodiť to na osobný server z SSL a rozdistribuovať fingerprint certifikátu. Možno ešte spraviť SHA a/alebo MD5 sumy čísla účtu/IP adresy servera. Hashe a fingerprinty rozosielať iba mejlom. Možno spraviť IRC server na ktorý sa bude dať dostať iba cez VPN/SSH z overovaním kľúča. Samotná komunikácia môže prebiehať v nejakej klasickej šifre napr. Vernamova šifra, ktorá je doteraz považovaná bez klúča za neprelomitelnú. Ale to už je moc veľa paranoje, či nie? :-)<br />
<br />
''František Horínek'' > teraz ma napadlo, že by sa dali použiť slová z mejlov, keď ste si kontrolovali naše adresy z distribučnej siete, na prístup na v osobný server, Server by sa potom autentifikoval inou časťou mejlu, potom by sa zobrazilo číslo účtu. Tieto texty by potencionálny útočník nemal ako získať.<br />
<br />
Napr 1-3 slovo z prvého odstavca mejlu<br />
<br />
ssh/https: zadajte 1-3 slovo z 1 odstavca mejlu<br />
zadám: "Dnes bylo oficialne"<br />
odpove: 4-5 slovo 1 odstavec "potvrzeno zahajeni"; čislo účtu je 123456789<br />
<br />
tým pádom získam informáciu ktorá je adresovaná len pre oúzky kruh ľudí a ja viem, že tá informácia nie je podvodná.<br />
<br />
Len preto, že som paranoidný neznamená, že ma nesledujú. Idú po mne. :-D<br />
<br />
'' Martin Šenkeřík '' > Uf... No problém je jeden, právě mně dorazil email z Pulster s exkluzivní nabídkou: dorazila mu první zásilka telefonů, obchod ještě neotevírá, ale nám už to nabízí ke koupi. Tzn. můžeme začít vybírat peníze, cenu 299€ potvrdil. Bližší info zveřejním za chvíli. A já už takovou ověřovací aplikaci nestihnu implementovat. Můžeme ještě využít jabber ohin@jabbim.cz - někteří lidé se mnou už komunikovali, takže potvrdí že za ním jsem opravdu já. A můžu pro největší paranoiky odpovědět libovolné otázky. Příp. mám v profilu vyplněn i telefon na sebe.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >> Pokud mám číslo účtu někoho - jak mu s tím můžu ublížit? Já bych to s tím zabezpečování nepřeháněl. Už jenom proto že posílám nemalý peníz na účet člověka, kterého jsem nikdy neviděl. Rozešli mailem variabilní symboly nebo něco podobného ať naše platby můžeš identifikovat. a nebo ti můžeme do zprávy pro příjemce napsat každý svoje jméno.<br />
<br />
''Milan Šedý'' >> Taky myslím, že nemusíme být až tak paranoidní. Na identifikaci stačí podle mě zpráva pro příjemce se jménem.<br />
<br />
''Jan Černý'' >> Jestli jsem správně pochopil ten email od Pulstera, tak se všechno příslušenství včetně obalu a headsetu musí objednat zvlášť. Jak se to bude zařizovat?<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>> No já to mám zařízené tak, že obal mně ušije ségra na narozky a bez headsetu se obejdu.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''>>>> hehe, tak když už bude v tom, tak to by mohla ušít pro všechny ;-) Jinak informace k objednávání příslušenství jsou na wiki.<br />
<br />
=== Doplňující informace ===<br />
* '''Vyjádření Pulster.de na objednávku většího množství telefonů:'''<br />
Hello,<br />
<br />
on OpenMoko wiki they announced: "Every 10 pack, will come with<br />
a box of stuff. 10 pouches and 10 head sets." Will this offer<br />
also be available in your shop? Some discount and bonus gadgets?<br />
I already want to order 20-30 phones to Czech Republic, so I am<br />
trying to find the best way, how to order this amount. Either<br />
from USA or from EU.<br />
<br />
Thank you, Martin Senkerik<br />
<br />
Hello,<br />
<br />
thanks a lot for asking. Right now we dont have Freerunner in<br />
stock, so no idea about earphones/pouches, sorry.<br />
I am happy to provide Czech users with OpenMokos. No customs,<br />
no paperwork, I have a lot CZ customers.<br />
Allow me to put you on the info list once it is avalaible and you<br />
get clear infos about all. We can work out free shipping and <br />
maybe some goodies.<br />
<br />
<br />
heres the standard info text:<br />
<br />
The new modell is called "Freerunner" (version GTA02).<br />
It will be available end of June 2008. We try to aim 300-350 EUR<br />
sales price.<br />
Once it's ready to ship, you willfind it in our shop.<br />
We do not make pre-orders of items we dont have in hands,<br />
so please understand. Once the Freerunner is in stock, ready to<br />
ship, we will send you a one-time info mail (we do not send<br />
you any spam, dont worry).<br />
<br />
Of course we are happy you bookmark us and come back to check<br />
for the nice Freerunner. Please find a small datasheet here:<br />
http://www.pulster.de/info/pdas/openmoko/freerunner-flyer.pdf<br />
<br />
<br />
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,<br />
Christoph Pulster<br />
<br />
* '''Moje komunikace s pobočkou FIC v ČR:'''<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
Taiwanský FIC v nejbližších dnech začne s prodejem mobilního telefonu<br />
Neo FreeRunner (www.openmoko.com). Chci se zeptat, jestli bude možné případné<br />
reklamace a opravy řešit u vás?<br />
<br />
Zatím není známý přesný způsob distribuce tohoto telefonu pro Evropu<br />
a Českou republiku. Nebude vaše pobočka zapojena do distribuční sítě?<br />
<br />
Děkuji za odpověď, Martin Šenkeřík<br />
Odpověď:<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
FIC CZ s.r.o. v těchto měsících přechází pod Foxconn CZ.<br />
V případě reklamace či informací se obracejte přímo na FIC TW.<br />
Kontaktní osobou na Zákaznickém oddělení je<br />
<br />
Mr. James Chang<br />
Customer Service Department<br />
Te.: +886 2 8751 8751 ext.6196<br />
James_chang@fic.com.tw<br />
<br />
S pozdravem<br />
<br />
Jarka Ripplova<br />
<br />
* '''Dotaz na celní úřad ohledně zpracování zásilky:'''<br />
Věc: Informace<br />
<br />
K Vaší žádosti o informaci týkající se hromadného dovozu zásilky pro osobní<br />
potřebu více příjemců Vám sdělujeme:<br />
<br />
Za zásilku zboží neobchodní povahy se ve smyslu celních předpisů považují<br />
zásilky, které jsou dováženy příležitostně a které obsahují výhradně zboží<br />
určené k osobnímu užití příjemců nebo jejich rodin, přičemž toto zboží nesmí<br />
povahou ani množstvím svědčit o obchodním úmyslu dovozce. Z uvedeného<br />
vyplývá, že tzv. sběrná zásilka nemůže být považována za zásilku zboží<br />
neobchodní povahy, i když obsah je určen pro osobní potřebu soukromých osob.<br />
Při dovozu zásilky obchodní povahy je zásilka zadržena při vstupu na celní<br />
území EU a příjemce vyzván k předložení celního prohlášení. Celní formality<br />
uskutečňuje příjemce, který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost.<br />
<br />
Pro zboží zařazené v některé z podpoložek čísla 8517 je celním sazebníkem EU<br />
stanovena sazba cla 0 %. Při dovozu zásilky zboží obchodního charakteru<br />
celní orgány posuzují, zda zboží nepodléhá zvláštnímu řízení podle zákona č.<br />
38/1994 Sb., o zahraničním obchodu s vojenským materiálem. Vedle cla se při<br />
propuštění dovezeného zboží do volného oběhu v tuzemsku vyměřuje DPH v<br />
základní sazbě 19 %. Základem pro vyměření DPH je cena, za kterou bylo zboží<br />
prodáno do EU, ke které se přičtou náklady na dopravu zásilky do EU, podle<br />
příslušných ustanovení zákona o DPH.<br />
<br />
Celní dluh, jehož součástí je i DPH, se vyměří v českých korunách z celní<br />
hodnoty převedené na české koruny v kurzu platném pro příslušné období.<br />
Aktuální kurzy měn jsou uveřejněny na stránkách Celní správy České republiky<br />
www.cs.mfcr.cz cestou Servis - Kurzovní lístky.<br />
<br />
== To open Colombia groupsales ==<br />
<br />
I wan to open the Colombia-Bogotá group sales.<br />
I want Neo advanced, no matter if the rest of the people wants the other.<br />
my mail: arawaco@ieee.org<br />
Ideas are welcome<br />
<br />
== USA ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#San_Francisco_Bay_Area San Francisco Bay Area] ===<br />
If everyone agrees [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm I] will pick up and pay for the 10 units from Fremont.<br />
Payment Options...<br />
* Bring cash to the arranged meetup to get the device. (I can arrange to meet up with individuals if needed)<br />
* We need to pay CA tax so keep that in mind, I'll try to get the exact price prior to pickup<br />
* Make sure you have confirmed with me your intention to buy the unit, the priority order will be the order that the list is currently in, any unconfirmed member of the group will be slipped to the bottom of the list on the day the units are available<br />
<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/dufflebunk dufflebunk]<br />
I'm all alone in the second group. I guess if anyone from the first group has to drop out I'll be happy to take their place. I would prefer cash (or cheque), Paypal sucks. <br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/krid krid said: ]<br />
I'm in for cash, just tell me where to show up. However, unless Steve says it'll be massively boring, I'd like to go to Fremont and see the facility. I'll be out of town at OSCON the last week of July, so hopefully we'll be able to do this before then. If not, I'll make arrangements with Jim.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm Jim said: ]<br />
I'll let everyone know when I'm going to Fremont to pick them up (Sounds like the first week in July), so anyone who wants to tag along is welcome and we can distribute them then and there.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Cry_Regarder Cry Regarder] At the time I moved myself from separate monterey to san francisco, there were 8 folks listed. That was 27 May. Jim Lutz wasn't in the list yet. Accordingly, I moved one of mine from the post 10 to above and swapped Jim Lutz down.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Xeromist Kelley said: ]<br />
That's fine Jim. I didn't ask to be given any special treatment and I want everything to remain fair. If we are able to form 2 full groups are you willing to buy for both or will we need to select a distributor for group 2 as well?<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm Jim said: ]<br />
I suspect we will need a second coordinator for the second group, $4k is a lot to fork out at one time, $8k is out of the question for me! However right now I think we can get everyone who has replied a unit from the first 10, unless one of the non-repliers contacts me before we pick up we won't need a second group.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Cry_Regarder Cry Regarder] I emailed "Steve" at openmoko and he said that they are working on the logistics for bulk buys of fractional case lots for quantities over 10. I don't know if they'll sort it out before they arrive though. Another possibility is to join in with LA...they'll probably appreciate having them picked up.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Discuss any other ideas here.</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Group_salesTalk:Group sales2008-06-26T13:24:35Z<p>Mivaho: /* The Netherlands */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
== England ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}<br />
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?<br />
<br />
:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.<br />
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
::Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====<br />
<br />
I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?<br />
<br />
I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?<br />
<br />
In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(<br />
<br />
:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] - [mailto:stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk let me know] if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
<br />
Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)<br />
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.<br />
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but<br />
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}<br />
<br />
<br />
Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php<br />
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen<br />
<br />
Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van <br />
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd <br />
zou willen zien worden.<br />
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie <br />
over het te leveren artikel.<br />
<br />
Uw naam J. de Haan<br />
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
Artikelinformatie<br />
Merk openmoko<br />
Naam freerunner<br />
Website openmoko.com<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen <br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor <br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail <br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
E-mailcontact - verzonden<br />
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.<br />
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)<br />
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not<br />
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out <br />
on Utrecht CS :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)<br />
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? <br /><br />
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1." <br />
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.<br />
<br />
{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will have 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Belgium Belgium]. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.<br />
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:<br />
<br />
Geachte heer,<br />
<br />
Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
<br />
Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx<br />
Product Management / Technical Support<br />
<br />
Salland Automatisering<br />
<br />
Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post. <br /><br />
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.<br />
from Jan de Haan <haan.j.de@gmail.com><br />
to inkoop@azerty.nl,<br />
date Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM<br />
subject Openmoko - Freerunner<br />
mailed-by gmail.com<br />
<br />
hide details 8:52 PM (0 minutes ago)<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen<br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor<br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
Een importeur schijnt trisoft.de te zijn. Let wel: dit product is<br />
nog niet op de markt,<br />
al zijn de laatste test productie runs klaar.<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail<br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken. <br /><br />
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):<br />
<br />
=== Votes for a reseller ===<br />
{|border=1<br />
!Name<br />
!Trisoft<br />
!Open Source Nieuws Nederland<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (Subject to a solution for warranty)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[Special:Emailuser/User:PWerken|Peter van de Werken]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (note: I'll buy 2 Freerunners)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (If warranty is OK)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|'''Total'''<br />
|<br />
|10<br />
|}<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:<br />
Beste Yorick,<br />
<br />
Bedankt voor je mail en informatie; ik kende de toestellen niet, maar zou ze<br />
best eens van dichtbij willen bekijken. Het 'developer' model lijkt me dan<br />
echter weer minder interessant voor ons; het 'consumer' model zou eind 2008<br />
op de markt moeten komen?<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
With kind regards,<br />
<br />
Michael Brus<br />
Manager PDAshop<br />
<br />
<br />
Coolblue<br />
Molenbaan 11 . 2908 LL Capelle a/d IJssel . www.coolblue.nl<br />
<br />
Coolblue is...<br />
MP3shop.nl . PDAshop.nl . Digicamshop.nl . GPSshop.nl .<br />
Smartphoneshop.nl . Consoleshop.nl . Telefoonshop.nl . meer...<br />
<br />
Should I forward this to Michael Shiloh?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 07/05} I'll vote to wait until there are actually phones shipping, until that time, the more people we gather here, and maybe other dealers, the better the deal we get(I hope).<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 08/05} <br />
Well, I want to have the phone as soon as possible. The best deal ever isn't my main concern.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 13/05}<br />
I've been browsing the mailing list, and found [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/016971.html this post] from Openmoko's Steve. Group sales have 28 days of DOA (Dead On Arrival) coverage, and single sales have 14 days of DOA coverage. Which I think is reasonable. BTW, I don't think there will be a better deal than the $369 per phone for the 10-pack. <br /><br />
We currently have enough people to fill 2 10-packs, which is awesome! <br /><br />
What we do need to figure out are the import costs, and the shipping costs. (it's shipped via UPS, if I recall correctly from the mailing list.)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 22/05}<br />
<br />
I wouldn't be too sure that this is financially going to be the best deal. This message in the community mailing list (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017668.html) shows interesting info regarding Pulster.<br />
----<br />
''Christph Pulster wrote:<br />
''> about 10 pack orders - we try to be cheaper than the 10-order-<br />
''> pack-price ! so no need to collect ten local buyers.<br />
<br />
''This sounds so good...! I'm waiting for official news (and maybe infos<br />
about the gifts too)...''<br />
----<br />
'''I checked their webpage and they advertise with OpenMoko Freerunner 299 eur'''<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 22/05} I checked their website too and it says 'Sobald der Freerunner wirklich lieferbar ist, ist er an dieser Stelle mit konkretem Preis zu finden und real bestellbar.' Which could mean that the price will be something other than 299 euro.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I like the pulster deal a lot, even if they are the same price as buying the 10 pack in the US the warranty part is a lot better seeing Germany is next door to us. Only thing is that you would mis out on the pouch and headset, dunno if that's such a great loss. And they say they will be going under the price of the US 10 pack order if you order the 10 from them. So maybe a vote on yes or no to the pouch/headset deal? Maybe we should check if with Pulster a group order of 10+ will always give the discount. Like 22 will get the same discount and that we are not forced in getting groups of ten people.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I wrote an e-mail to pulster with the questions so I will post the answer here when I get one.<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 24/05} <br />
The pouch and headset are not that important IMO. I guess most join the group sale for convenience and reduce cost. But maybe I'm wrong.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
<br />
'''From the community mailing list again:<br />
<br />
'''Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote [to Pulster - Ed.]:<br />
''>> 1. Do you know when you'll be approximately able to define a price?<br />
''>> 2. The Freerunner will be shipped with extra goodies (generally<br />
''>> given only to people buying a 10-pack (ie: pouch and headset)?<br />
''> <br />
<br />
'''From Pulster [Ed.]<br />
<br />
''> Price fix ASAP I have the units in own hands/stocks.<br />
''> 299-319 eur is really realistic.<br />
''> <br />
''> All goodies included at PULSTER !<br />
''> <br />
''> Also can be bought a lot accessories extra very soon (debug board, pens, <br />
''> cases etc)<br />
''> <br />
''> you see, I will make all your wishes true :)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/05} Yeah, read that message in the weekend, no reply to my mail at this moment but seeing this message straight from pulster I would say that we should buy directly from pulster as a group. Warranty wise it's better as well.<br />
<br />
399 U.S. dollars is about 253 Euros and including VAT that would become 301.07 Euro so pulster with their price being 299 Euro (see below) has a good price and for 10 and more there is a discount just like in the US. I would propose to take the dutch group sale to Pulster.<br />
<br />
The following mail from Chis Pulster was on the list also.<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
I am Chris from pulster.eu - my hello to this great community.<br />
<br />
May I add some points from my side:<br />
<br />
- Freerunner - ready to order ASAP it is available. We do not<br />
take pre-orders of items we dont have in hands. For a one-time info- <br />
mail once the Freerunner is ready to order, please just email me <br />
mailto: christoph@pulster.de<br />
- we aim a Freerunner price tag of 299 EUR incl. VAT<br />
- shipping worldwide with DHL, Europa 15 EUR, World 30 EUR postage<br />
- soon we offer accessories for Freerunner like spare batterie, charger, <br />
Headset, pouch and also the debug-board<br />
- group-sales make local communities, that is wonderful. I am happy to <br />
sell Freerunner separately or in packages.<br />
<br />
Many thanks,<br />
Chris<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
Indeed let's take the dutch group sale to Pulster. We are with 22 so we should be able to make a good deal regarding the goodies. And in that way no-one has to take any financial risk.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 28/05} My guess is, that for a group buy at pulster there is still one entity needed for buying the devices. The thing is that with pulster, as with the US deal, the waranty should be per person and not named for the buying entity.<br />
<br />
:I don't think that we need to do the 'group buy' at Pulster. You can just buy the device at 299 a piece there. I would like to have the pouch though, if they can assure me that the pouch and other goodies would be included in the deal (because they of course could make a number of 'groupbuys' for the entire customer base), then count me in.--[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
:: Your absolutly right on this one, been thinking about it and the possible discount we would be getting would wasted on shipping within the Netherlands again. Like you said, if there are goodies involved it's a different deal of course :) . --[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
:::So let's start negotiating with Pulster regarding the goodies. We can bring in 22 customers, so he has something to win. It might be important to know whether Pulster takes credit card payments. I cannot find that option on their webpage and an electronic banktransfer will add another 15 (?) euro.[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
<br />
:::: Bank payments to germany are free of charge, at least for my bank (Rabobank).{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]]}<br />
<br />
:::: I'm afraid they don't accept credit cards (from their [http://www.pulster.de/engl/imprint.htm About Us page]:<br />
<br />
We do not accept any other payment option like PayPal, Reembourse/Cash-on-delivery (COD) payments, <br />
direct CreditCard payments, any kind of cheques, western union, postal money orders, cash. Please dont <br />
ask, we do not accept none of this options thanks to a very few but very expensive scams. <br />
<br />
:::: Nice double negative in there, btw. But still, 299+15 is less than 350 or 400. ;) --[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
::::: If it is going to be a group sale (if pulster provides the goodies) it would be (discounted price * 22 + transfer rate + (21 * shipping within Holland)) [[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
:::::: Are you assuming that we'd get a discounted price when we order in bulk? I have not seen any evidence that Pulster will lower the price even more, when done like that. But indeed, we'd have 22 * whatever-price-the-freerunner-will-get-at-Pulster + shipping costs... but then we are back at the discussion of how to deal with the warranty. Will Pulster give separate invoices for each of the phones in the pack? --[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 02/06} Okay I got an answer from Chris Pulster. I had 2 main questions that he answered and they were 1. Will the pouch and other goodies be included with a group sale as would be if we were to buy in the states. 2. Is a group sale, like in the states, limited to groups of ten or will the discount be for all phones bought in bulk. This is what he had to say:<br />
<br />
about your question: at the moment we dont know about pouch/headsets <br />
included or not. I will tell you a more reliable answer if Freerunners <br />
are in stocks.<br />
my discount system and sales are full flexibel (no ten-pack limitations)<br />
let us talk and we find a nice offer for the dutch OpenMoko community !<br />
<br />
<br />
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,<br />
Christoph Pulster<br />
<br />
We will have to take a look at what the discount will be and if it is worth it considering we will have extra shipping cost in holland.<br />
<br />
If the shipping costs will be too high, i would be willing to pick the phones up myself, if my expenses are covered. We have to figure out further distribution though. {[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 03/06}<br />
<br />
{[[User:Atilla|Atilla Filiz]] 19/06} Don't we have a chance for direct shipping from Taiwan? The phones are produced there anyway.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 20/06} We could but the problem would be that we would be buying it for consumer prices where Pulster buys a whole lot, and being a reseller pays a reseller price, or better yet a distributors price. So my bet is that we would be better of getting it from pulster than from Taiwan because that would not be much cheaper then getting it from the States.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Atilla|Atilla Filiz]] 22/06} Any news from Pulster or any other possible importer yet?<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/06} I got some news from Christoph just now but am waiting for permission to post it here, nothing earth chattering but just want his permission seeing it is a private e-mail. I'll keep you posted.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/06}<br />
<br />
Okay this is the e-mail Christopher from pulster.de wrote to me this afternoon:<br />
<br />
- our price of 299 EUR for Openmoko Freerunner is already rock-bottom, so we can not make further discounts, my apologises. What we can offer is free shipping <br />
worldwide if you order 10 units or more at once.<br />
<br />
- delivery time: same day money cleares we ship with registered and insured DHL airmail parcel. Transit time inside Europe is c.3 days, outside Europe 5 days.<br />
<br />
- customs: inside EU community there is no hassle with customs and no taxes/VAT will be added. Its all included our price of 299 eur. <br />
Outside EU community (Switzerland, Norway, USA, Asia) we will reduce German VAT giving a buying price of 249 EUR excl. VAT. Please note your local VAT will be added.<br />
<br />
- warranty: we give full 2 years warranty period. Please note, this is legal law for European business and compare it with own imports from Asia/USA.<br />
For warranty issues we are happy to include a separate invoice for each person of the GroupSale.<br />
<br />
- accessories included: its identical to the single unit order. Any other accessories (Cases/Headset etc.) can be ordered in our shop www.pulster.eu - we already have stocks.<br />
<br />
My first reaction was that seeing this it would be better to order as an individual because the only benefit of the free shipping would be lost because we would have to re-distribute it in Holland so that would add some shipping costs again. That's what I wrote to Chris and he replied that another benefit of a group order is that a group order has precedence before a shop sale. So My guess is ( and I hope to get that confirmed by Chris ASAP ) that if we as a group order at pulster.de before the shop opens, those phones will be reserved for us. When you order as an individual there is a chance you will miss out on the first batch and would have to wait until Chris gets another batch of phones.<br />
<br />
So my advice would be, if we want to get our hands on a Openmoko FreeRunner as one of the first in Holland we would need to buy as a group. Again, we, Open Source Nieuws Nederland, are willing to be the mediator. The price would be the Euro 299 plus shipping costs within Holland and the money needs to be in our bank account before we pay pulster.de we can not afford to pay in advance. How do we communicate? Should I open an e-mail adres fot this? Do any of you want to do the group thing with pulster, or buy as an individual or take your money to the states?<br />
<br />
SeeYa,<br />
Michel<br />
<br />
{[[User:nicolas|Nico Veenkamp]] 26/06}. I am willing to group my order together with the rest using Open Source Nieuws Nederland as intermediate. Specifically to have the priority advantage of the group order mentioned by Michel to get my hands as soon as possible on the Neo FreeRunner. I would suggest to Michel to put order details on this page and open a specific email adres to receive orders.<br />
<br />
I'm also in on that groupsale. Too bad it doesn't include the goodie bag, but that doesn't matter much. :) I'd suggest setting up an email address. You do need address details from the participants. :) <br /> Or do you prefer to set a date on which the Neos are handed to everyone in person? :) <br /> [ [[User:Madjo|MadJo]] 08:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC) ]<br />
<br />
Coun't me in on the group sale too. My main interest is to get the neo as soon as possible and to have an individual tax receipt. Is that possible when i join in on the group sale? {[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/06}<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/06} Okay, The following will happen. I will try and mail everyone on the group sale page (as long as people are using a registered username with e-mail address) and this talk page (when not on the group sale page) with the specifics, I will also mail to the community mail list with that message. Keep in mind, this will all take some time because first we need to give people a chance to "sign up", then to transfer money and then for us to transfer all that money to pulster. Then (when pulster has the money) the phones will be send to us and then they will be send to the people. So do not expect them to be with you within a few days after making the money transfer to us, if you want that then try your luck by buying it on your own and hope that there will enough in stock at pulster.de before you get there.<br />
<br />
We will be sending the phones with insured postage, this will put an extra Euro 7,95 on top of the Pulster.de price of Euro 299. It could be we have to do some extra wrapping, I'm waiting for an answer on that part by Pulster. We still need 10 or more buyers so if that number is not reached it is everyone for his/her self.<br />
<br />
Maybe we need to put something on the group sale page?<br />
<br />
== Canada ==<br />
==== GTA (Toronto) ====<br />
{ --[[User:Argo|Argo]] 03:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC) }<br />
For group 1 it looks like they have actually gotten the 10 orders in? or am I them adding up wrong?<br />
<br />
== Croatia ==<br />
{--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 14:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)} '''ja ne bih da već sada radimo pan-balkansku grupu, iskreno sam iznenađen odazivom do sada, pa jedino možda ako ne skupimo dovoljno ljudi do kraja ovog tjedna...'''<br />
<br />
moj post sa hr.comp.os.linux upućen mnalisu;<br />
<br />
> BTW, ti si zapravo kontaktirao HULK i rekli su ti da bi to oni isli raditi i<br />
<br />
> gnjaviti se sa svim tim, ili ih cisto spominjes onako u smislu "pa oni su<br />
<br />
> dragi ljudi, sigurno ce besplatno uloziti mjesece svog zivota u to u zamjenu<br />
<br />
> za pivu" ?<br />
<br />
Davio sam ih malo zadnja dva dana na IRCu, i prema logu načelno su za<br />
da se narudžbe hendlaju preko njih. A i mislim da se ipak ne radi o<br />
mjesecima života bačenih za pivu, more like možda 2-3 sata za gajbu<br />
ili dvije :), hell ako je toliko teško napravit ću ja sve, učlanit se<br />
u HULK ako treba<br />
<br />
ali do toga trenutka ovako ja razmišljam:<br />
<br />
1.) skupimo 10 zainteresiranih<br />
2.) ja nazovem carinu i agenciju za telekomunikacije<br />
3.) pitamo openmoko za shipping estimate<br />
4.) ako su svi i dalje za, skupljanje sredstava i na kraju narudžba<br />
<br />
dakle ništa nije obligatory, idemo step by step, onog trenutka kada se<br />
prijavi 10 ljudi na wikiju ja zovem nadležne službe, pa ćemo vidit di<br />
stojimo sa uvozom i tim''<br />
<br />
nemoj odmah "worst case scenario" :)<br />
<br />
>> mozda da se malo na elitesecurity.org pokrene rasprava?<br />
<br />
--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 10:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC) svakako, ja sam za<br />
<br />
== Czech Republic ==<br />
Distribuční seznam, základní informace naleznete v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Czech_Republic GroupSales]<br />
<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Diskuze Diskuze]<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Dopl.C5.88uj.C3.ADc.C3.AD_informace Doplňující informace]<br />
<br />
=== Diskuze ===<br />
''Martin Holec''> Máme tu 4x ze Zlína, co kdyby někdo jel do Brna pro 4ks a ve Zlíně by se rozdělili?<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> jak jsem psal, já do Zlína jezdívám, a od května do září budu ve Zlíně velmi často, takže se Zlínem není vůbec problém.<br />
<br />
Jinak už se objevily nějaké termíny. Jestli jsem to dobře pochopil, tak 9.5. by už mohla začít masová výroba a brzy na to by měl začít prodej...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak by měl vlastně vypadat? Takový ten bíly se mně moc nelíbí. Radši bych měl [http://http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:FIC-neo1973_small.jpg černý].<br />
<br />
''Michal Pěnka''> Protože jsem jedenáctý a nevím, jestli bude možné objednat 11 kusů nebo jen po desítkách, domluvím se s Tomem Vargou později (jestli by byl ochotný pro převoz do Prahy), každopádně bych také raději ten černý.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak to tak tady pročítám tak to půjde objednat za zvýhodněnou cenu (+pytlík? a headset) opravdu jenom po desítkách. Ale IMHO když této stránce zvedneme popularitu (případně přiberem Slováky) tak jich budem nakonec brát minimálně dvacet ;) Mně osobně připadá datum 9.5. hodně optimistické.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> FreeRunner bude pouze v jedné barevné variantě, a to černý. To datum 9.5. mám [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates odsud]<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>Nemáte někdo fotku freerunnera ? na wiki jsem zatím našel jenom fotky GTA1-čky<br />
<br />
''David Kozub''>> Jelikoz se vyskytuju ve Zline i v Praze, muzu zajistit prevoz do Prahy.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No tak například tady to máš dokonce na videu: http://youtube.com/watch?v=k9QLdK6pFCI ;-) Ale jinak i na wiki se povalují fotky FreeRunnera. Například hned ta první na hlavní stránce ;-)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> To video je parádní. Co se týče té fotky z úvodu wiki, myslel jsem, že je to jenom render. Jinak jak jsem tak bloudil po stránkách české pošty - nejlevněj to nejspíš vyjde poslat jako profibalík za myslím že 64korun. Za dobírku se něco ještě připlácí. Balík je pojištěný do 100 000. [http://www.cpost.cz:80/jetspeed/portal/media-type/html/user/anon/page/default.psml/js_pane/sluzbyonline%2Czasilky?docid=370&calc_lb0=10424&calc_cb0=1 více zde]<br />
<br />
ad. '''Praha (Čechy):'''<br />
<br />
''Tom Varga''>> Pokoušel jsem se vyčíst z mailing listu, jak je to s tou množstevní slevou - co jsem z toho pochopil, tak by neměl být problém objednat množství nedělitené desíti, ale ty kusy navíc jsou pak [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016432.html bez slevy] a [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016202.html bez bonusu]; pořád by se to ale vyplatilo skrze poštovné. Prozatím bych navrhl, aby se zájemci z Prahy (Čech) zapsali / potvrdili smazáním otazníku v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu], možná něco podobného pro Slovensko - momentálně to vypadá, že bude snazší sehnat 20 zájemců celkem a taky by se tím mohla situace trochu vyjasnit. Osobně jsem schopen zajistit dovoz z Brna do Prahy, Liberce, Jablonce n.N. a přilehlých končin. Případné návrhy sem ;)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>> Řekl bych že čím větší balík poletí za Ameriky sem tím levněj to vyjde. Pokud není poštovné na gramy. 20-ti zájemců se určitě dočkáme. Když počítám Františka Horínka z Bratislavy tak je nás 18. Co se týče bonusů na headsetu moc nelpím ale ten pytel by se mně vážně hodil. Často v kapse kombinuju mobil a klíče nebo šroubovák...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>> Poštovné samozřejmě není na gramy, ale na libry, neboli každých započatých 0.45 kg se platí, plus se poštovné započítává do cla, mimochodem taková zásilka asi jen tak přes celnici neprojde, takže je možné, že nikdo (příjemce) bude muset dodat na celnici případné dokumenty dokladující hodnotu zasílaného zboží.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>> Tak dle "platného" celního sazebníku by se clo nemělo platit. Viz [http://disk.jabbim.cz/ivir@jabbim.com/celni_sazebnik.pdf Sazebník] strana 568. Tedy by se hradilo pouze DPH. Aspoň si myslím, že 20 telefonů jako "dárek" asi neprojde.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>>> No tím lépe, ale tak já to beztak myslel jako celý celní dluh a to dph je právě i z poštovného.<br />
<br />
''Miloslav Machotka''> Koukám že jsem trochu zaspal dění. :) V [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu] jsem se připsal k Praze. Mám to nejblíž, jsem z Vlašimi, ale jinak jsem pro to schopen dojet i do Brna. Jsem pro to aby se to vyřešilo, pokud možno, po desítkách a pak to rozvést (rozeslat) po Čechách a Slovensku. Bonusy se asi většině lidí hodí.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>>>>> DPH musíme taky platit ?? To je mrzuté. Kolik mají DPH slováci ? nevyšlo by to levněj poslat do Bratislavy a stama ''"propašovat"'' k nám ? Když už máme ten šengen... Nevrátí nám třeba amíci DPH které za to zaplatili u nich ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>>>>> Co je mi známo, tak při obchodování mimo zemi se DPH neúčtuje a účtuje se až v cílové zemi. Dle rok starého článku na měšci je základní sazba stejná, tj. 19%. Od DPH by to šlo odprostit pouze pokud by na tom balíku bylo napsáno, že se jedná o dárek. Pak se na to daň neuplatní. Jakmile se mi povede najít ustanovení/článek, tak jsem dám odkaz.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''> No ono je stále ještě otázkou, odkud to vůbec budou posílat. Protože sem někde viděl informace, že se budou snažit zásobovat Evropu z nějakého centra v Evropě. O tom dárku jsem taky slyšel, ale prej to taky není zaručený způsob. Celníci se do toho můžou podívat, a uvalit na to daň podle vlastního rozhodnutí (prej). Jinak ale je tu ještě možnost, že by nám to někdo dovezl. Nevíte jak to funguje v tom případě?<br />
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''Jan Mareš''>>To centrum v Evropě bylo v plánu avšak levněji jim to vyjde posílání z Ameriky, takže bude k dispozici jen jedno centrum v USA. Ohledně toho dárku jsem doposud četl, že jeho částka nesmí přesáhnout 55€, jinak je normálně proclíván. Při osobním převozu jsou nastaveny limity výše viz [http://www.celnisprava.cz/CmsGrc/Cestovani-a-nakupy/Jak-se-chovat/mimo-eu.htm celní správa].<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Kdyby vezl dva tři tak by možná ukecal že je to dárek ale dvacet... clo vem čert to bude nanejvýš 3,5% což není taková pálka. Spíš kdy se to DPH z toho platí ? Hned na celnici nebo musím podat něco jako daňové přiznání ?<br />
* No tak zatím jsem zjistil že nejspíš jediná šance jak se osvobodit od cla a DPH je že všeci sedem do letadla a zajedem si pro to. Limit je 6000kč na jednu osobu starší 15-ti let.<br />
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''Jan Mares''>>>> Clo se na tento druh zboží nevztahuje. Platí se pouze české DPH, který ti celníci vyměří z ''ceny zboží + doprava + clo'', pak ti v případě fyzické osoby zašlou na tvou poštu, kde uhradíš DPH jako dobírku. U podnikatele je to trošku jiné. VAT (čili americké DPH) na zboží nebude uvaleno, jelikož zboží je vyváženo z USA.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''> No a dá se tohle spočítat předem? Abysme mohli stanovit cenu?<br />
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''Michal Bořek''>> No dokud nebude jasne kolik bude stat postovne (typ + vaha) a jaky bude kurs dolaru, tak presna cena asi tezko.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''>>No co. Tak ti každý pošlem sedm tisíc s tím, že potom přebytky rozdělíš do obálek a budeš předávat s každým telefonem obálku. Jinak to asi dost dobře nepůjde. Jedině že by nám to sem dopravila česká pobočka FIC-u/foxconn. Ale to je podle mně nepravděpodobné.<br />
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''Michal Bořek''>>>JJ take myslim, ze bych dal predbeznou cenu 7K s tim, ze uz je poslem, at muzes pruzne zareagovat a ne pak cekat az vsichni poslou.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''>>>> Kdyby se zase Steve nebo někdo vyjádřil v jakém je to stavu a přidal předběžný odhad kdy se začne prodávat. Teďka je to těžko. Můžou ho vydat zítra ale taky třeba i za půl roku pokud se objeví nějaký složitý problém.<br />
Ještě k té předběžné ceně - dolar není za 15 korun ale za 16,1-16,2 korun I s DPH se do těch 7000 nespíš nevejdem. Jestli že se domluvíme žo začnem posílat peníze tak navrhuju posílat 7500. IMHO dolar už níž nepůjde.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Co jsem se zatím díval na možnosti přepravy (DHL,Fedex,UPS,USPS), tak nejvýhodněji vychází USPS ([http://www.usps.com/ usps.com]), kdy se pohybujeme kolem částky 120$ i s pojištěním (kdyby to bylo cca 10kg což pochybuji). Bohužel maximální pojištění činí 5 000$, přičemž celková částka balíku vychází na cca 7 580$ . U ostatních jsem ohledně pojištění nenašel zmínku, přičemž poštovné vycházelo většinou přes 500$. Z pohledu pojištění by bylo vhodné objednávky rozdělit. Ještě bude záležet jaké poštovní služby nabídnou v e-shopu. Včera u ČSOB byla prodejní cena dolaru na 16,44Kč/$ a musím bohužel souhlasit, že lepší to už nebude. Jinak ceník je k dispozici na této adrese [http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781 http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781] .<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''> Teď mně napadlo - co kdyby jsem někde založili učet (nejlépe spořící) v dolarech a poslali to tam teď ? [http://www.mesec.cz/clanky/ucet-v-cizi-mene-ano-ale-kde/] Kdyby tak člověk věděl že pozítru neoznámí prodej...<br />
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''Michal Bořek''>>>>> Tak urcite bych pockal s placenim na nejake jistejsi vyjadreni, ale necekal bych na otevreni kramu, tehdy uz by chtelo, aby se to dalo hned objednat, co se tyka uctu neverim, ze dolar spadne, ale ani ze poroste a tak bych to neresil.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Vzhledem k množství objednávaného zboží bych možná už využil dopravních společností, které za nás provedou celní odbavení. Aspoň metodický pokyny k vyplnění JSD (jednotný správní doklad) nejsou triviální a zabere to minimálně půlden. Ukázku dokumentu jsme nalezl zde: [http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/ http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/].<br />
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''Michal Bořek''>> Dole v tom dopisu z celního úřadu se píše: "který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost" to nikdo z nás má?<br />
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''Michal Bořek'' >> '''[http://www.trisoft.de/en_freerunner.htm Evropský Distributor]''', ale je celkem dražší.<br />
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''Radek Machulka'' > Což o to, [http://www.pulster.de/ tady] je o 50 euro levnější, ale nemyslím si, že to bude ve výsledku výhodnější.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''>>> Co jsem se díval do pokynů, tak to může vyplnit i fyzická osoba, jelikož každý způsobilý občan může provést obchodní činnost. Pouze nesmí být opakovaného rázu, tj. jednorázové obchody. Zkusím se tedy dotázat konkrétněji na tuto část. Ohledně toho evropského distributora nevím. Odhadem to vychází přes 1000 Kč dráž bez poštovného a bez bonusů. Jestliže se nám poradí vyřešit problém s celním úřadem, tak bych spíše volil objednávku z USA. Připadá mi, že tyhle obchody to jen objednají v USA, přijmou a přepošlou s přirážkou.<br />
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''Michal Bořek'' >>>> Take jsem pro USA, jen sem to nasel a ac ten od Radka Machulky je uz zajimavejsi tak verim, ze se dostanem i pod nej a jeste je tam ten obal a sluchatka.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''> Já jsem též pro USA. Ještě by bylo možné (teoreticky) zkusit si to objednat přes nějakého (mešího) obchodníka co bere věci od FIC-u<br />
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''Michal Bořek''> Tož sem [[GroupSales#Aktu.C3.A1ln.C4.9B|vyhlásil konkurz]] na koordinátora pražské větve a snad se najde někdo kdo je schopen se vejít do těch zásadních bodů co jsem tam nastínil.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Relativně požadavky splňuji. Mám studentský ČSOB účet mající limit na 1,5M, kartu Visa Classic, angličtinu zvládám na úrovni čtení technické dokumentace, bydlím na Barrandově a jabber též mám (ivir@jabbim.com). Jen tu důvěryhodnost nemám. :) S tím clem to bude ještě zajímavé, ale snad mi ohledně toho ještě poradí z celního úřadu. V nouzi mám k dispozici i OSVČ. :)<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Dle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017531.html příspěvku] bude dovoz zboží do USA zahájen někdy 1.června. K tomu je nutné připočítat min. týden až 3 než zboží dorazí do skladů. Z příspěvku teoreticky vyplývá, že bude i evropský HUB. Snad to bude za stejnou částku a s bonusy. :)<br />
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''Michal Bořek''>Podle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017607.html příspěvku] by měl webový shop odkazovat na us i eu a to vypadá čím dál nadějnějš co se týká poštovného aj cla.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' jestli to dobře překládám tak není jasné jakým způsobem to půjde z činy - jestli lodí nebo letadlem ?<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Ano, aspoň takto jsem to pochopil i já. Problémem je ta doba dodání. Jinak co se týká vyřízení JSD (cla), tak u zprostředkovatele [http://www.kama-eu.cz/ KAMA s.r.o.>, jež mi doporučil celní úřad, vychází na cca 1000 Kč viz ceník, což mi připadá přijatelné.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''> No mně ty informace od Steva přijdou vždycky nějaké zmatené. Nevědí jestli lodí nebo letadlem, ale odejít by to snad mělo až 1.6. (nebo co má znamenat to datum, v jeho zprávě), takže to ještě docela potrvá... :-(<br />
Jan Mareš: můžeš prosím popsat co přesně má být těch 1000Kč a jak se na to přijde? Já tomu pořád nějak nerozumím...<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''>> <font color="gray">best case is I would start to test phones around the first of june. Then<br />
pack and ship.<br />
</font>1.6. začíná testovat telefony a potm je balit a odesílat.<br><br />
<font color=gray>The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically you<br />
build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy% pass the test, and the factory says.<br />
"good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on the<br />
test software, because that bad phone really was good." arrg.</font> Ale toto nějak moc nechápu.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Vychází to takto: 250 Kč (vypracování JSD), 30 Kč (vypracování hodnoty), 250 Kč (jednani za deklaranta), 30 Kč (avízo) a pak asi ručení (350). Je to můj odhad a po konkrétním dotaze by měli sdělit částku. Asi tedy bude třeba připočítat poštovné (250 Kč). Zatím jsem jim napsal dotaz ohledně nepodnikající osoby s tímto množstvím, tak jsem zvědav kdy odpoví.<br />
Tu další část považuji za povzdychnutí, kdy jim vyrobili více telefonů z nichž jen část prošla a továrna chce tohle číslo minimalizovat a že dané chyby byly spíše SW povahy.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' Podle toho co píšeš bych řekl že by vyšlo levněj kdyby jsme brali všechny telefony dohromady.Jaké má výhody osamostatnění Prahy ?<br />
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''Michal Bořek'' No nedokazeme pojistit 30telefonu na jejich cenu pri doprave, ale jinak pokud by to clo vyrizovala firma asi by to bylo vyhodnejsi.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Trochu mě znepokojují zprávy v community e-mail archivu, kde uvádějí, že openmoko e-shop využívá služeb UPS. U nich by nebyl problém s pojištěním, ale ty ceny. Cena je de facto konstantní na cca 600$ (při 10kg balíčku), takže pak by bylo vhodné objednávku shrnout dohromady. Pak by to vycházelo o cca 10$ na hlavu více. Snažím se přesvědčit otce jako OSVČ, že by byla objednávka napsaná na něj a tím pádem by odpadl problém s využitím výše uvedené společnosti od nichž jsem dostal zamítavé stanovisko ohledně "neobchodní zásilky".<br />
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Pak už zbývá využít evropského distributora Pulster.de . Teoreticky mi vychází částka při dovozu z US na 7600 Kč a u Pulsteru na 7 660Kč bez poštovné. Avšak za předpokladu společné hromadné objednávky. V opačném případě je nutné připočíst u US objednávky cca tisícovku (při 10 lidech).<br />
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Zapomněl jsem tedy dodat, že zboží by bylo v republice za 4-5 dnů + pár dnů na vyřízení celního řízení.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''> veškeré spekulace jsou zatím velmi předběžné, protože ani sami prodejci ještě nemají jasno, za jakých podmínek budou FreeRunner prodávat. Každopádně Pulster se mi docela zamlouvá (viz níže), vypadá že s panem majitelem se dá rozumně domluvit. Asi mu řeknu že objednávám telefonů 40, aby byl kdyžtak ochoten větší slevy nebo nějakého zvýhodnění a nechám tu zásilku jenom rozdělit a poslat do Prahy a sobě... Ale jak říkám, pořád ještě je všechno předběžné, definitivně se rozhodne asi už během tohoto měsíce.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''> Ještě jedna novinka: pan Christoph Pulster z pulster.de mně oznámil zahájení prodeje debug boardu za "lidovou" cenu 149€ což je docela rozdíl oproti 99$... Takže jak říkám, všechno jsou teď jenom teoretické úvahy jak objednávku zorganizovat. Ikdyž osobně dávám pulster.de naděje, myslím, že se na ceně jak debugboardu, tak telefonu, bude dát domluvit, stejně jako nulová cena za dopravu zní přijatelně :-)<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''> Pražáků je docela nešťastý počet. Jediné co mně napadá je pokusit se domluvit s Plusterem že by vzal 4 desítky z toho nám přeposlal těch 34 a zbytek by si nechal a prodal. A taky chci poděkovat Martinu Šenkeříkovi za to že se o nás tak stará.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''>Tak je otázkou jak vlastně Pulster bude fungovat. Jako evropský distributor by měl od openmoko odbržet třeba 500ks (na dluh), které pak prodává. Z tohoto pohledu je jedno jaký počet telefonů se objedná. Pochybuji, že ta distribuce je založena na tom, že mi mu zaplatíme a on to objedná z US skladu. Pak by se určitě lépe hodil nákup přímo z US, kdy skrze UPS by se vyřídily všechny formality s celním úřadem. Rozhodující je konečná cena u Pulsteru.<br />
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''Radek Machulka'' > Tak to vypada, ze si budeme moci vybrat: [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-June/019117.html list]<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Žel s ohledem na co nejnižší cenu jsou oba distributori mimo hru, kdy se pohybujeme s cenou kolem 8 700Kč, což je hnedle o tisícikorunu více než při objednání z US. Doufejme, že Pulster nahodí lepší cenu.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' > To je mrzuté. Vypadá to, že se všichni distributoři rozhodli, že si na tom namastí kapsu a spoléhají na to, že nic podobného neexistuje a že je to novinka...<br />
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''Michal Bořek'' >> Podle té dvojnásobné ceny debug boardu se dá soudit, že nám nic jiného než US nezbude,tyhle EU distributoři jsou fakt jen zlatokopové.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Doufám že je amíci nezančou dorovnávat.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík'' > Jak jsem už několikrát psal, na jakékoliv spekulace je pořád brzo, situace se stále vyvíjí -> pulster dnes debugboard oficiálně slevnil na 99€. Takže ještě pořád není rozhodnuto. Prostě počkáme s čím kdo přijde (případně distributory trošku nakopnu sám :-)). "Amíci" je rozhodně dorovnávat nezačnou, když od "amíků" to ti Evropští distributoři objednávají ;-)<br />
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''Miloslav Machotka'' > K diskuzi o zvolení prodejce. Já jsem určitě pro Pulster. Cena je myslím dobrá a hlavně to ušetří Martinu Šenkeříkovi práci, které s náma má i tak dost. A pokud jsem to správně pochopil, řeší to i problém s počtem telefonů nedělitelným deseti. Všichni dostanou za svoje peníze totéž.<br />
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''František Horínek'' > Veľmi si vážim to, čo pre nás Martin Šenkeřík robí ale mam pocit, že 299€ je viac ako $399 a potom sa stráca akákoľvek zľava. Neviete niekto koľko by stála doprava z USA?<br />
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''Miloslav Machotka'' >> Podle dnešního kurzu to vychází následovně. 299€ = 7240 kč. 369$ = 5777kč * 1,19 DPH = 6875 kč. A to v tom nemáte dopravu a tu práci s vyřizováním. Nabídka Pulsteru mi přijde jako výhodná.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík'' >> Ok, myslel jsem že je to tu někde sepsané, ale radši to připomenu: 299€ (cca 7300Kč) je definitivní cena, to je cifra kterou dá každý z nás za telefon v případě objednávky od Pulstera. <br />
Naopak cena 369$ (cca 5830Kč) není ani zdaleka konečná. Připočítáme daň 19% a dostaneme se na cca 7000Kč. Stále ještě zbývá připočítat clo a poštovné (aspoň doufám, že jsem správně pochopil, co se podařilo zjistit ostatním). A to nepočítám pravděpodobné papírování a obíhání úřadů (ikdyž někdo myslím psal, že UPS to všechno řeší sama). Když už ne levněji, tak to vyjde minimálně na stejno... Kdyžtak mě doplňte/opravte, kdo se těmi cly zabýval hlouběji.<br />
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''Jan Mareš'' > Hezky shrnuto. UPS veškeré papírování ohledně DPH a cla řeší. Telefony spadají do 0% cla, takže se platí jen DPH, které je však vypočítávané i s dopravou, která je je celkem vysoká, aspoň při vypůjčení odhadů od Švýcarů, tj. 3kg za 10 telefonů, tak poštovné bude činit přes 10 000Kč. Takže to vychází nastejno či díky klesajícímu euru i výhodněji. Navíc plusem je 2letá záruka, naproti jednoleté z US.<br />
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''František Horínek'' >> Ďakujem za objasnenie na DPH som úplne zabudol. Máte pravdu je to výhodné<br />
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''Luboš Podrázský'' >> Zdravím, tak jsem taky pro Pulster.de. Cena vyjde víceméně nastejno, méně starostí pro organizátory, delší záruka a jestli se tím vyřeší i počet kusů nedělitelný 10-ti, tak asi neni co řešit.<br />
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''Michal Pěnka'' > Podle všech informací tady a na hlavní stránce groupsales se také přikláním k pulster. Dvouletá záruka není zanedbatelná. Už se těším :)<br />
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''Karel Volný'' > Pokud od Pulster dostaneme totéž, jako bychom dostali z USA, tak těch případných pár korun navíc klidně obětuju ve prospěch jednodušší organizace.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' > jestli jsem dobře pochopil zprávu na [[Community Updates]] tak by se 4.Července mělo začít prodávat. (...) Jak vůbec bude probíhat potenciální vyřizování reklamace ? Já teda doufám že při prvních kusech budou číňani odpočatí a budou dělat kvalitně, ale při mém štěstí úplně vidím jak to zapnu a ono to zasmrdí...<br />
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''Radek Machulka'' > Co se týče objednávky, já osobně bych počkal na zahájení prodeje, t.j. na dobu, kdy bude jasné kdo a za jakých podmínek bude FR prodávat. Je pochopitelné, že Pulster.de nemůže potvrdit konečnou cenu, protože si ji víceméně vycucal z prstu.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš'' > Pulster předobjednávky nebere, tady jde spíše o stanovení částky, kterou Martin bude vybírat, aby se vracely jen drobné. Jde o urychlení objednávky, aby na nás vyšli ty univerzální stylusy. :) Ještě je nutné připočíst cca 3 dny na převod peněz na jejich účet. Ohledně té reklamace, tak při tomto způsobu objednání je nutné reklamované zboží zaslat do Pulsteru, kde bude reklamace vyřizována. Šlo by to přímo u FICu, ale české zastoupení prochází převzetím, viz vyjádření níže. Co jsem doposud zachytil, tak všechny FR jsou před balením testovány na funkčnost, takže může dojít k poškození jedině při přepravě, což bychom měli zachytit při přebírání zboží v Brně. Dle dostupných fotek balení jsou FR bytelně baleni, takže ani toto by nemělo hrozit.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >> Jasně že dělají všecko proto aby byl počet reklamací co nejnižší, konec konců šetří tak peníze sami sobě, ale jsou věci které se dost dobře odzkoušet nedají. Naštěstí FR nemá žádné klouby nebo kryty které by se časem mohly rozpadnout takže mi snad vydrží aspoň 5 let. (...) není jedno jestli se vrací 5korun nebo pětistovka ?<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Já spíš tlumil to nadšení z pulster.de jako nejvýhodnějšího prodejce. Taky si nemyslím, že by nějaký prodejce byl potenciálně vhodnější z pohledu uplatňování případných reklamací.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >> Tak pluster láká dvouletou zárukou.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >> Jestli to s Plusterem bude fungovat tak, že pošlu 7500 (tj 300EUR) a dostanu za to FR tak, sice nerad, ale oželím i ten obal. Ono z USA to nejspíš stejně nevyjde o moc levněj. Jestli vůbec. Pokud vezmu 369USD s kurzem 16Kč a k tomu 19% DPH tak jmse rázem na sedmi tisících a to jsme ještě nezaplatili poštovné, na které se to DPH taky vzathuje, + přpadné poplatky za bůhví co.<br />
Já jsem pro pluster.<br />
<br />
''Vojtěch Vozáb'' >> Asi bych taky byl pro pulster, protože dokud napevno neurčí cenu tak objednávka není závazná (opravte mě jestli se pletu), takže kdyby nějak zásadně zdražil, může se přinejhorším objednávka zrušit a objednat z Ameriky. Hlavně by bylo dobré vyřešit to rychle, pro mě je poslední termín kdy můžu zaplatit ve čtvrtek 26. června a pak až 4. července, mezi tím jsem pryč. To by sice mohlo stačit, protože prodej imho stejně dříve než 4. nezačne, ale bylo by samozřejmě lepší mít jistotu a shromáždit peníze v předstihu.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík'' > S Vojtou jsme to pořešili. A teď abysme zabili nějaký čas, než dorazí telefony k distributorům, bych se vás chtěl zeptat, jestli vám stačí, když číslo účtu pak pošlu mailem, hodím na svůj server a napíšu na wiki? Jestli se to někomu zdá málo bezpečné, navrhněte prosím lepší způsob.<br />
<br />
''František Horínek'' > Ja si osobne myslím, že mail podpísaný pgp-čkom určite nič nepokazíte. Tiež by nebolo zle hodiť to na osobný server z SSL a rozdistribuovať fingerprint certifikátu. Možno ešte spraviť SHA a/alebo MD5 sumy čísla účtu/IP adresy servera. Hashe a fingerprinty rozosielať iba mejlom. Možno spraviť IRC server na ktorý sa bude dať dostať iba cez VPN/SSH z overovaním kľúča. Samotná komunikácia môže prebiehať v nejakej klasickej šifre napr. Vernamova šifra, ktorá je doteraz považovaná bez klúča za neprelomitelnú. Ale to už je moc veľa paranoje, či nie? :-)<br />
<br />
''František Horínek'' > teraz ma napadlo, že by sa dali použiť slová z mejlov, keď ste si kontrolovali naše adresy z distribučnej siete, na prístup na v osobný server, Server by sa potom autentifikoval inou časťou mejlu, potom by sa zobrazilo číslo účtu. Tieto texty by potencionálny útočník nemal ako získať.<br />
<br />
Napr 1-3 slovo z prvého odstavca mejlu<br />
<br />
ssh/https: zadajte 1-3 slovo z 1 odstavca mejlu<br />
zadám: "Dnes bylo oficialne"<br />
odpove: 4-5 slovo 1 odstavec "potvrzeno zahajeni"; čislo účtu je 123456789<br />
<br />
tým pádom získam informáciu ktorá je adresovaná len pre oúzky kruh ľudí a ja viem, že tá informácia nie je podvodná.<br />
<br />
Len preto, že som paranoidný neznamená, že ma nesledujú. Idú po mne. :-D<br />
<br />
'' Martin Šenkeřík '' > Uf... No problém je jeden, právě mně dorazil email z Pulster s exkluzivní nabídkou: dorazila mu první zásilka telefonů, obchod ještě neotevírá, ale nám už to nabízí ke koupi. Tzn. můžeme začít vybírat peníze, cenu 299€ potvrdil. Bližší info zveřejním za chvíli. A já už takovou ověřovací aplikaci nestihnu implementovat. Můžeme ještě využít jabber ohin@jabbim.cz - někteří lidé se mnou už komunikovali, takže potvrdí že za ním jsem opravdu já. A můžu pro největší paranoiky odpovědět libovolné otázky. Příp. mám v profilu vyplněn i telefon na sebe.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >> Pokud mám číslo účtu někoho - jak mu s tím můžu ublížit? Já bych to s tím zabezpečování nepřeháněl. Už jenom proto že posílám nemalý peníz na účet člověka, kterého jsem nikdy neviděl. Rozešli mailem variabilní symboly nebo něco podobného ať naše platby můžeš identifikovat. a nebo ti můžeme do zprávy pro příjemce napsat každý svoje jméno.<br />
<br />
''Milan Šedý'' >> Taky myslím, že nemusíme být až tak paranoidní. Na identifikaci stačí podle mě zpráva pro příjemce se jménem.<br />
<br />
''Jan Černý'' >> Jestli jsem správně pochopil ten email od Pulstera, tak se všechno příslušenství včetně obalu a headsetu musí objednat zvlášť. Jak se to bude zařizovat?<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>> No já to mám zařízené tak, že obal mně ušije ségra na narozky a bez headsetu se obejdu.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''>>>> hehe, tak když už bude v tom, tak to by mohla ušít pro všechny ;-) Jinak informace k objednávání příslušenství jsou na wiki.<br />
<br />
=== Doplňující informace ===<br />
* '''Vyjádření Pulster.de na objednávku většího množství telefonů:'''<br />
Hello,<br />
<br />
on OpenMoko wiki they announced: "Every 10 pack, will come with<br />
a box of stuff. 10 pouches and 10 head sets." Will this offer<br />
also be available in your shop? Some discount and bonus gadgets?<br />
I already want to order 20-30 phones to Czech Republic, so I am<br />
trying to find the best way, how to order this amount. Either<br />
from USA or from EU.<br />
<br />
Thank you, Martin Senkerik<br />
<br />
Hello,<br />
<br />
thanks a lot for asking. Right now we dont have Freerunner in<br />
stock, so no idea about earphones/pouches, sorry.<br />
I am happy to provide Czech users with OpenMokos. No customs,<br />
no paperwork, I have a lot CZ customers.<br />
Allow me to put you on the info list once it is avalaible and you<br />
get clear infos about all. We can work out free shipping and <br />
maybe some goodies.<br />
<br />
<br />
heres the standard info text:<br />
<br />
The new modell is called "Freerunner" (version GTA02).<br />
It will be available end of June 2008. We try to aim 300-350 EUR<br />
sales price.<br />
Once it's ready to ship, you willfind it in our shop.<br />
We do not make pre-orders of items we dont have in hands,<br />
so please understand. Once the Freerunner is in stock, ready to<br />
ship, we will send you a one-time info mail (we do not send<br />
you any spam, dont worry).<br />
<br />
Of course we are happy you bookmark us and come back to check<br />
for the nice Freerunner. Please find a small datasheet here:<br />
http://www.pulster.de/info/pdas/openmoko/freerunner-flyer.pdf<br />
<br />
<br />
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,<br />
Christoph Pulster<br />
<br />
* '''Moje komunikace s pobočkou FIC v ČR:'''<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
Taiwanský FIC v nejbližších dnech začne s prodejem mobilního telefonu<br />
Neo FreeRunner (www.openmoko.com). Chci se zeptat, jestli bude možné případné<br />
reklamace a opravy řešit u vás?<br />
<br />
Zatím není známý přesný způsob distribuce tohoto telefonu pro Evropu<br />
a Českou republiku. Nebude vaše pobočka zapojena do distribuční sítě?<br />
<br />
Děkuji za odpověď, Martin Šenkeřík<br />
Odpověď:<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
FIC CZ s.r.o. v těchto měsících přechází pod Foxconn CZ.<br />
V případě reklamace či informací se obracejte přímo na FIC TW.<br />
Kontaktní osobou na Zákaznickém oddělení je<br />
<br />
Mr. James Chang<br />
Customer Service Department<br />
Te.: +886 2 8751 8751 ext.6196<br />
James_chang@fic.com.tw<br />
<br />
S pozdravem<br />
<br />
Jarka Ripplova<br />
<br />
* '''Dotaz na celní úřad ohledně zpracování zásilky:'''<br />
Věc: Informace<br />
<br />
K Vaší žádosti o informaci týkající se hromadného dovozu zásilky pro osobní<br />
potřebu více příjemců Vám sdělujeme:<br />
<br />
Za zásilku zboží neobchodní povahy se ve smyslu celních předpisů považují<br />
zásilky, které jsou dováženy příležitostně a které obsahují výhradně zboží<br />
určené k osobnímu užití příjemců nebo jejich rodin, přičemž toto zboží nesmí<br />
povahou ani množstvím svědčit o obchodním úmyslu dovozce. Z uvedeného<br />
vyplývá, že tzv. sběrná zásilka nemůže být považována za zásilku zboží<br />
neobchodní povahy, i když obsah je určen pro osobní potřebu soukromých osob.<br />
Při dovozu zásilky obchodní povahy je zásilka zadržena při vstupu na celní<br />
území EU a příjemce vyzván k předložení celního prohlášení. Celní formality<br />
uskutečňuje příjemce, který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost.<br />
<br />
Pro zboží zařazené v některé z podpoložek čísla 8517 je celním sazebníkem EU<br />
stanovena sazba cla 0 %. Při dovozu zásilky zboží obchodního charakteru<br />
celní orgány posuzují, zda zboží nepodléhá zvláštnímu řízení podle zákona č.<br />
38/1994 Sb., o zahraničním obchodu s vojenským materiálem. Vedle cla se při<br />
propuštění dovezeného zboží do volného oběhu v tuzemsku vyměřuje DPH v<br />
základní sazbě 19 %. Základem pro vyměření DPH je cena, za kterou bylo zboží<br />
prodáno do EU, ke které se přičtou náklady na dopravu zásilky do EU, podle<br />
příslušných ustanovení zákona o DPH.<br />
<br />
Celní dluh, jehož součástí je i DPH, se vyměří v českých korunách z celní<br />
hodnoty převedené na české koruny v kurzu platném pro příslušné období.<br />
Aktuální kurzy měn jsou uveřejněny na stránkách Celní správy České republiky<br />
www.cs.mfcr.cz cestou Servis - Kurzovní lístky.<br />
<br />
== To open Colombia groupsales ==<br />
<br />
I wan to open the Colombia-Bogotá group sales.<br />
I want Neo advanced, no matter if the rest of the people wants the other.<br />
my mail: arawaco@ieee.org<br />
Ideas are welcome<br />
<br />
== USA ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#San_Francisco_Bay_Area San Francisco Bay Area] ===<br />
If everyone agrees [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm I] will pick up and pay for the 10 units from Fremont.<br />
Payment Options...<br />
* Bring cash to the arranged meetup to get the device. (I can arrange to meet up with individuals if needed)<br />
* We need to pay CA tax so keep that in mind, I'll try to get the exact price prior to pickup<br />
* Make sure you have confirmed with me your intention to buy the unit, the priority order will be the order that the list is currently in, any unconfirmed member of the group will be slipped to the bottom of the list on the day the units are available<br />
<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/dufflebunk dufflebunk]<br />
I'm all alone in the second group. I guess if anyone from the first group has to drop out I'll be happy to take their place. I would prefer cash (or cheque), Paypal sucks. <br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/krid krid said: ]<br />
I'm in for cash, just tell me where to show up. However, unless Steve says it'll be massively boring, I'd like to go to Fremont and see the facility. I'll be out of town at OSCON the last week of July, so hopefully we'll be able to do this before then. If not, I'll make arrangements with Jim.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm Jim said: ]<br />
I'll let everyone know when I'm going to Fremont to pick them up (Sounds like the first week in July), so anyone who wants to tag along is welcome and we can distribute them then and there.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Cry_Regarder Cry Regarder] At the time I moved myself from separate monterey to san francisco, there were 8 folks listed. That was 27 May. Jim Lutz wasn't in the list yet. Accordingly, I moved one of mine from the post 10 to above and swapped Jim Lutz down.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Xeromist Kelley said: ]<br />
That's fine Jim. I didn't ask to be given any special treatment and I want everything to remain fair. If we are able to form 2 full groups are you willing to buy for both or will we need to select a distributor for group 2 as well?<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm Jim said: ]<br />
I suspect we will need a second coordinator for the second group, $4k is a lot to fork out at one time, $8k is out of the question for me! However right now I think we can get everyone who has replied a unit from the first 10, unless one of the non-repliers contacts me before we pick up we won't need a second group.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Cry_Regarder Cry Regarder] I emailed "Steve" at openmoko and he said that they are working on the logistics for bulk buys of fractional case lots for quantities over 10. I don't know if they'll sort it out before they arrive though. Another possibility is to join in with LA...they'll probably appreciate having them picked up.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Discuss any other ideas here.</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Group_salesTalk:Group sales2008-06-25T19:07:19Z<p>Mivaho: /* The Netherlands */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
== England ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}<br />
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?<br />
<br />
:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.<br />
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
::Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====<br />
<br />
I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?<br />
<br />
I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?<br />
<br />
In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(<br />
<br />
:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] - [mailto:stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk let me know] if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
<br />
Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)<br />
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.<br />
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but<br />
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}<br />
<br />
<br />
Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php<br />
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen<br />
<br />
Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van <br />
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd <br />
zou willen zien worden.<br />
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie <br />
over het te leveren artikel.<br />
<br />
Uw naam J. de Haan<br />
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
Artikelinformatie<br />
Merk openmoko<br />
Naam freerunner<br />
Website openmoko.com<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen <br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor <br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail <br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
E-mailcontact - verzonden<br />
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.<br />
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)<br />
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not<br />
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out <br />
on Utrecht CS :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)<br />
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? <br /><br />
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1." <br />
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.<br />
<br />
{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will have 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Belgium Belgium]. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.<br />
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:<br />
<br />
Geachte heer,<br />
<br />
Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
<br />
Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx<br />
Product Management / Technical Support<br />
<br />
Salland Automatisering<br />
<br />
Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post. <br /><br />
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.<br />
from Jan de Haan <haan.j.de@gmail.com><br />
to inkoop@azerty.nl,<br />
date Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM<br />
subject Openmoko - Freerunner<br />
mailed-by gmail.com<br />
<br />
hide details 8:52 PM (0 minutes ago)<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen<br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor<br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
Een importeur schijnt trisoft.de te zijn. Let wel: dit product is<br />
nog niet op de markt,<br />
al zijn de laatste test productie runs klaar.<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail<br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken. <br /><br />
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):<br />
<br />
=== Votes for a reseller ===<br />
{|border=1<br />
!Name<br />
!Trisoft<br />
!Open Source Nieuws Nederland<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (Subject to a solution for warranty)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[Special:Emailuser/User:PWerken|Peter van de Werken]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (note: I'll buy 2 Freerunners)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (If warranty is OK)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|'''Total'''<br />
|<br />
|10<br />
|}<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:<br />
Beste Yorick,<br />
<br />
Bedankt voor je mail en informatie; ik kende de toestellen niet, maar zou ze<br />
best eens van dichtbij willen bekijken. Het 'developer' model lijkt me dan<br />
echter weer minder interessant voor ons; het 'consumer' model zou eind 2008<br />
op de markt moeten komen?<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
With kind regards,<br />
<br />
Michael Brus<br />
Manager PDAshop<br />
<br />
<br />
Coolblue<br />
Molenbaan 11 . 2908 LL Capelle a/d IJssel . www.coolblue.nl<br />
<br />
Coolblue is...<br />
MP3shop.nl . PDAshop.nl . Digicamshop.nl . GPSshop.nl .<br />
Smartphoneshop.nl . Consoleshop.nl . Telefoonshop.nl . meer...<br />
<br />
Should I forward this to Michael Shiloh?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 07/05} I'll vote to wait until there are actually phones shipping, until that time, the more people we gather here, and maybe other dealers, the better the deal we get(I hope).<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 08/05} <br />
Well, I want to have the phone as soon as possible. The best deal ever isn't my main concern.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 13/05}<br />
I've been browsing the mailing list, and found [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/016971.html this post] from Openmoko's Steve. Group sales have 28 days of DOA (Dead On Arrival) coverage, and single sales have 14 days of DOA coverage. Which I think is reasonable. BTW, I don't think there will be a better deal than the $369 per phone for the 10-pack. <br /><br />
We currently have enough people to fill 2 10-packs, which is awesome! <br /><br />
What we do need to figure out are the import costs, and the shipping costs. (it's shipped via UPS, if I recall correctly from the mailing list.)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 22/05}<br />
<br />
I wouldn't be too sure that this is financially going to be the best deal. This message in the community mailing list (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017668.html) shows interesting info regarding Pulster.<br />
----<br />
''Christph Pulster wrote:<br />
''> about 10 pack orders - we try to be cheaper than the 10-order-<br />
''> pack-price ! so no need to collect ten local buyers.<br />
<br />
''This sounds so good...! I'm waiting for official news (and maybe infos<br />
about the gifts too)...''<br />
----<br />
'''I checked their webpage and they advertise with OpenMoko Freerunner 299 eur'''<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 22/05} I checked their website too and it says 'Sobald der Freerunner wirklich lieferbar ist, ist er an dieser Stelle mit konkretem Preis zu finden und real bestellbar.' Which could mean that the price will be something other than 299 euro.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I like the pulster deal a lot, even if they are the same price as buying the 10 pack in the US the warranty part is a lot better seeing Germany is next door to us. Only thing is that you would mis out on the pouch and headset, dunno if that's such a great loss. And they say they will be going under the price of the US 10 pack order if you order the 10 from them. So maybe a vote on yes or no to the pouch/headset deal? Maybe we should check if with Pulster a group order of 10+ will always give the discount. Like 22 will get the same discount and that we are not forced in getting groups of ten people.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I wrote an e-mail to pulster with the questions so I will post the answer here when I get one.<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 24/05} <br />
The pouch and headset are not that important IMO. I guess most join the group sale for convenience and reduce cost. But maybe I'm wrong.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
<br />
'''From the community mailing list again:<br />
<br />
'''Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote [to Pulster - Ed.]:<br />
''>> 1. Do you know when you'll be approximately able to define a price?<br />
''>> 2. The Freerunner will be shipped with extra goodies (generally<br />
''>> given only to people buying a 10-pack (ie: pouch and headset)?<br />
''> <br />
<br />
'''From Pulster [Ed.]<br />
<br />
''> Price fix ASAP I have the units in own hands/stocks.<br />
''> 299-319 eur is really realistic.<br />
''> <br />
''> All goodies included at PULSTER !<br />
''> <br />
''> Also can be bought a lot accessories extra very soon (debug board, pens, <br />
''> cases etc)<br />
''> <br />
''> you see, I will make all your wishes true :)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/05} Yeah, read that message in the weekend, no reply to my mail at this moment but seeing this message straight from pulster I would say that we should buy directly from pulster as a group. Warranty wise it's better as well.<br />
<br />
399 U.S. dollars is about 253 Euros and including VAT that would become 301.07 Euro so pulster with their price being 299 Euro (see below) has a good price and for 10 and more there is a discount just like in the US. I would propose to take the dutch group sale to Pulster.<br />
<br />
The following mail from Chis Pulster was on the list also.<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
I am Chris from pulster.eu - my hello to this great community.<br />
<br />
May I add some points from my side:<br />
<br />
- Freerunner - ready to order ASAP it is available. We do not<br />
take pre-orders of items we dont have in hands. For a one-time info- <br />
mail once the Freerunner is ready to order, please just email me <br />
mailto: christoph@pulster.de<br />
- we aim a Freerunner price tag of 299 EUR incl. VAT<br />
- shipping worldwide with DHL, Europa 15 EUR, World 30 EUR postage<br />
- soon we offer accessories for Freerunner like spare batterie, charger, <br />
Headset, pouch and also the debug-board<br />
- group-sales make local communities, that is wonderful. I am happy to <br />
sell Freerunner separately or in packages.<br />
<br />
Many thanks,<br />
Chris<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
Indeed let's take the dutch group sale to Pulster. We are with 22 so we should be able to make a good deal regarding the goodies. And in that way no-one has to take any financial risk.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 28/05} My guess is, that for a group buy at pulster there is still one entity needed for buying the devices. The thing is that with pulster, as with the US deal, the waranty should be per person and not named for the buying entity.<br />
<br />
:I don't think that we need to do the 'group buy' at Pulster. You can just buy the device at 299 a piece there. I would like to have the pouch though, if they can assure me that the pouch and other goodies would be included in the deal (because they of course could make a number of 'groupbuys' for the entire customer base), then count me in.--[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
:: Your absolutly right on this one, been thinking about it and the possible discount we would be getting would wasted on shipping within the Netherlands again. Like you said, if there are goodies involved it's a different deal of course :) . --[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
:::So let's start negotiating with Pulster regarding the goodies. We can bring in 22 customers, so he has something to win. It might be important to know whether Pulster takes credit card payments. I cannot find that option on their webpage and an electronic banktransfer will add another 15 (?) euro.[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
<br />
:::: Bank payments to germany are free of charge, at least for my bank (Rabobank).{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]]}<br />
<br />
:::: I'm afraid they don't accept credit cards (from their [http://www.pulster.de/engl/imprint.htm About Us page]:<br />
<br />
We do not accept any other payment option like PayPal, Reembourse/Cash-on-delivery (COD) payments, <br />
direct CreditCard payments, any kind of cheques, western union, postal money orders, cash. Please dont <br />
ask, we do not accept none of this options thanks to a very few but very expensive scams. <br />
<br />
:::: Nice double negative in there, btw. But still, 299+15 is less than 350 or 400. ;) --[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
::::: If it is going to be a group sale (if pulster provides the goodies) it would be (discounted price * 22 + transfer rate + (21 * shipping within Holland)) [[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
:::::: Are you assuming that we'd get a discounted price when we order in bulk? I have not seen any evidence that Pulster will lower the price even more, when done like that. But indeed, we'd have 22 * whatever-price-the-freerunner-will-get-at-Pulster + shipping costs... but then we are back at the discussion of how to deal with the warranty. Will Pulster give separate invoices for each of the phones in the pack? --[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 02/06} Okay I got an answer from Chris Pulster. I had 2 main questions that he answered and they were 1. Will the pouch and other goodies be included with a group sale as would be if we were to buy in the states. 2. Is a group sale, like in the states, limited to groups of ten or will the discount be for all phones bought in bulk. This is what he had to say:<br />
<br />
about your question: at the moment we dont know about pouch/headsets <br />
included or not. I will tell you a more reliable answer if Freerunners <br />
are in stocks.<br />
my discount system and sales are full flexibel (no ten-pack limitations)<br />
let us talk and we find a nice offer for the dutch OpenMoko community !<br />
<br />
<br />
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,<br />
Christoph Pulster<br />
<br />
We will have to take a look at what the discount will be and if it is worth it considering we will have extra shipping cost in holland.<br />
<br />
If the shipping costs will be too high, i would be willing to pick the phones up myself, if my expenses are covered. We have to figure out further distribution though. {[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 03/06}<br />
<br />
{[[User:Atilla|Atilla Filiz]] 19/06} Don't we have a chance for direct shipping from Taiwan? The phones are produced there anyway.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 20/06} We could but the problem would be that we would be buying it for consumer prices where Pulster buys a whole lot, and being a reseller pays a reseller price, or better yet a distributors price. So my bet is that we would be better of getting it from pulster than from Taiwan because that would not be much cheaper then getting it from the States.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Atilla|Atilla Filiz]] 22/06} Any news from Pulster or any other possible importer yet?<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/06} I got some news from Christoph just now but am waiting for permission to post it here, nothing earth chattering but just want his permission seeing it is a private e-mail. I'll keep you posted.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/06}<br />
<br />
Okay this is the e-mail Christopher from pulster.de wrote to me this afternoon:<br />
<br />
- our price of 299 EUR for Openmoko Freerunner is already rock-bottom, so we can not make further discounts, my apologises. What we can offer is free shipping <br />
worldwide if you order 10 units or more at once.<br />
<br />
- delivery time: same day money cleares we ship with registered and insured DHL airmail parcel. Transit time inside Europe is c.3 days, outside Europe 5 days.<br />
<br />
- customs: inside EU community there is no hassle with customs and no taxes/VAT will be added. Its all included our price of 299 eur. <br />
Outside EU community (Switzerland, Norway, USA, Asia) we will reduce German VAT giving a buying price of 249 EUR excl. VAT. Please note your local VAT will be added.<br />
<br />
- warranty: we give full 2 years warranty period. Please note, this is legal law for European business and compare it with own imports from Asia/USA.<br />
For warranty issues we are happy to include a separate invoice for each person of the GroupSale.<br />
<br />
- accessories included: its identical to the single unit order. Any other accessories (Cases/Headset etc.) can be ordered in our shop www.pulster.eu - we already have stocks.<br />
<br />
My first reaction was that seeing this it would be better to order as an individual because the only benefit of the free shipping would be lost because we would have to re-distribute it in Holland so that would add some shipping costs again. That's what I wrote to Chris and he replied that another benefit of a group order is that a group order has precedence before a shop sale. So My guess is ( and I hope to get that confirmed by Chris ASAP ) that if we as a group order at pulster.de before the shop opens, those phones will be reserved for us. When you order as an individual there is a chance you will miss out on the first batch and would have to wait until Chris gets another batch of phones.<br />
<br />
So my advice would be, if we want to get our hands on a Openmoko FreeRunner as one of the first in Holland we would need to buy as a group. Again, we, Open Source Nieuws Nederland, are willing to be the mediator. The price would be the Euro 299 plus shipping costs within Holland and the money needs to be in our bank account before we pay pulster.de we can not afford to pay in advance. How do we communicate? Should I open an e-mail adres fot this? Do any of you want to do the group thing with pulster, or buy as an individual or take your money to the states?<br />
<br />
SeeYa,<br />
Michel<br />
<br />
== Canada ==<br />
==== GTA (Toronto) ====<br />
{ --[[User:Argo|Argo]] 03:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC) }<br />
For group 1 it looks like they have actually gotten the 10 orders in? or am I them adding up wrong?<br />
<br />
== Croatia ==<br />
{--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 14:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)} '''ja ne bih da već sada radimo pan-balkansku grupu, iskreno sam iznenađen odazivom do sada, pa jedino možda ako ne skupimo dovoljno ljudi do kraja ovog tjedna...'''<br />
<br />
moj post sa hr.comp.os.linux upućen mnalisu;<br />
<br />
> BTW, ti si zapravo kontaktirao HULK i rekli su ti da bi to oni isli raditi i<br />
<br />
> gnjaviti se sa svim tim, ili ih cisto spominjes onako u smislu "pa oni su<br />
<br />
> dragi ljudi, sigurno ce besplatno uloziti mjesece svog zivota u to u zamjenu<br />
<br />
> za pivu" ?<br />
<br />
Davio sam ih malo zadnja dva dana na IRCu, i prema logu načelno su za<br />
da se narudžbe hendlaju preko njih. A i mislim da se ipak ne radi o<br />
mjesecima života bačenih za pivu, more like možda 2-3 sata za gajbu<br />
ili dvije :), hell ako je toliko teško napravit ću ja sve, učlanit se<br />
u HULK ako treba<br />
<br />
ali do toga trenutka ovako ja razmišljam:<br />
<br />
1.) skupimo 10 zainteresiranih<br />
2.) ja nazovem carinu i agenciju za telekomunikacije<br />
3.) pitamo openmoko za shipping estimate<br />
4.) ako su svi i dalje za, skupljanje sredstava i na kraju narudžba<br />
<br />
dakle ništa nije obligatory, idemo step by step, onog trenutka kada se<br />
prijavi 10 ljudi na wikiju ja zovem nadležne službe, pa ćemo vidit di<br />
stojimo sa uvozom i tim''<br />
<br />
nemoj odmah "worst case scenario" :)<br />
<br />
>> mozda da se malo na elitesecurity.org pokrene rasprava?<br />
<br />
--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 10:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC) svakako, ja sam za<br />
<br />
== Czech Republic ==<br />
Distribuční seznam, základní informace naleznete v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Czech_Republic GroupSales]<br />
<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Diskuze Diskuze]<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Dopl.C5.88uj.C3.ADc.C3.AD_informace Doplňující informace]<br />
<br />
=== Diskuze ===<br />
''Martin Holec''> Máme tu 4x ze Zlína, co kdyby někdo jel do Brna pro 4ks a ve Zlíně by se rozdělili?<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> jak jsem psal, já do Zlína jezdívám, a od května do září budu ve Zlíně velmi často, takže se Zlínem není vůbec problém.<br />
<br />
Jinak už se objevily nějaké termíny. Jestli jsem to dobře pochopil, tak 9.5. by už mohla začít masová výroba a brzy na to by měl začít prodej...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak by měl vlastně vypadat? Takový ten bíly se mně moc nelíbí. Radši bych měl [http://http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:FIC-neo1973_small.jpg černý].<br />
<br />
''Michal Pěnka''> Protože jsem jedenáctý a nevím, jestli bude možné objednat 11 kusů nebo jen po desítkách, domluvím se s Tomem Vargou později (jestli by byl ochotný pro převoz do Prahy), každopádně bych také raději ten černý.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak to tak tady pročítám tak to půjde objednat za zvýhodněnou cenu (+pytlík? a headset) opravdu jenom po desítkách. Ale IMHO když této stránce zvedneme popularitu (případně přiberem Slováky) tak jich budem nakonec brát minimálně dvacet ;) Mně osobně připadá datum 9.5. hodně optimistické.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> FreeRunner bude pouze v jedné barevné variantě, a to černý. To datum 9.5. mám [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates odsud]<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>Nemáte někdo fotku freerunnera ? na wiki jsem zatím našel jenom fotky GTA1-čky<br />
<br />
''David Kozub''>> Jelikoz se vyskytuju ve Zline i v Praze, muzu zajistit prevoz do Prahy.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No tak například tady to máš dokonce na videu: http://youtube.com/watch?v=k9QLdK6pFCI ;-) Ale jinak i na wiki se povalují fotky FreeRunnera. Například hned ta první na hlavní stránce ;-)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> To video je parádní. Co se týče té fotky z úvodu wiki, myslel jsem, že je to jenom render. Jinak jak jsem tak bloudil po stránkách české pošty - nejlevněj to nejspíš vyjde poslat jako profibalík za myslím že 64korun. Za dobírku se něco ještě připlácí. Balík je pojištěný do 100 000. [http://www.cpost.cz:80/jetspeed/portal/media-type/html/user/anon/page/default.psml/js_pane/sluzbyonline%2Czasilky?docid=370&calc_lb0=10424&calc_cb0=1 více zde]<br />
<br />
ad. '''Praha (Čechy):'''<br />
<br />
''Tom Varga''>> Pokoušel jsem se vyčíst z mailing listu, jak je to s tou množstevní slevou - co jsem z toho pochopil, tak by neměl být problém objednat množství nedělitené desíti, ale ty kusy navíc jsou pak [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016432.html bez slevy] a [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016202.html bez bonusu]; pořád by se to ale vyplatilo skrze poštovné. Prozatím bych navrhl, aby se zájemci z Prahy (Čech) zapsali / potvrdili smazáním otazníku v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu], možná něco podobného pro Slovensko - momentálně to vypadá, že bude snazší sehnat 20 zájemců celkem a taky by se tím mohla situace trochu vyjasnit. Osobně jsem schopen zajistit dovoz z Brna do Prahy, Liberce, Jablonce n.N. a přilehlých končin. Případné návrhy sem ;)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>> Řekl bych že čím větší balík poletí za Ameriky sem tím levněj to vyjde. Pokud není poštovné na gramy. 20-ti zájemců se určitě dočkáme. Když počítám Františka Horínka z Bratislavy tak je nás 18. Co se týče bonusů na headsetu moc nelpím ale ten pytel by se mně vážně hodil. Často v kapse kombinuju mobil a klíče nebo šroubovák...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>> Poštovné samozřejmě není na gramy, ale na libry, neboli každých započatých 0.45 kg se platí, plus se poštovné započítává do cla, mimochodem taková zásilka asi jen tak přes celnici neprojde, takže je možné, že nikdo (příjemce) bude muset dodat na celnici případné dokumenty dokladující hodnotu zasílaného zboží.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>> Tak dle "platného" celního sazebníku by se clo nemělo platit. Viz [http://disk.jabbim.cz/ivir@jabbim.com/celni_sazebnik.pdf Sazebník] strana 568. Tedy by se hradilo pouze DPH. Aspoň si myslím, že 20 telefonů jako "dárek" asi neprojde.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>>> No tím lépe, ale tak já to beztak myslel jako celý celní dluh a to dph je právě i z poštovného.<br />
<br />
''Miloslav Machotka''> Koukám že jsem trochu zaspal dění. :) V [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu] jsem se připsal k Praze. Mám to nejblíž, jsem z Vlašimi, ale jinak jsem pro to schopen dojet i do Brna. Jsem pro to aby se to vyřešilo, pokud možno, po desítkách a pak to rozvést (rozeslat) po Čechách a Slovensku. Bonusy se asi většině lidí hodí.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>>>>> DPH musíme taky platit ?? To je mrzuté. Kolik mají DPH slováci ? nevyšlo by to levněj poslat do Bratislavy a stama ''"propašovat"'' k nám ? Když už máme ten šengen... Nevrátí nám třeba amíci DPH které za to zaplatili u nich ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>>>>> Co je mi známo, tak při obchodování mimo zemi se DPH neúčtuje a účtuje se až v cílové zemi. Dle rok starého článku na měšci je základní sazba stejná, tj. 19%. Od DPH by to šlo odprostit pouze pokud by na tom balíku bylo napsáno, že se jedná o dárek. Pak se na to daň neuplatní. Jakmile se mi povede najít ustanovení/článek, tak jsem dám odkaz.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No ono je stále ještě otázkou, odkud to vůbec budou posílat. Protože sem někde viděl informace, že se budou snažit zásobovat Evropu z nějakého centra v Evropě. O tom dárku jsem taky slyšel, ale prej to taky není zaručený způsob. Celníci se do toho můžou podívat, a uvalit na to daň podle vlastního rozhodnutí (prej). Jinak ale je tu ještě možnost, že by nám to někdo dovezl. Nevíte jak to funguje v tom případě?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>To centrum v Evropě bylo v plánu avšak levněji jim to vyjde posílání z Ameriky, takže bude k dispozici jen jedno centrum v USA. Ohledně toho dárku jsem doposud četl, že jeho částka nesmí přesáhnout 55€, jinak je normálně proclíván. Při osobním převozu jsou nastaveny limity výše viz [http://www.celnisprava.cz/CmsGrc/Cestovani-a-nakupy/Jak-se-chovat/mimo-eu.htm celní správa].<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Kdyby vezl dva tři tak by možná ukecal že je to dárek ale dvacet... clo vem čert to bude nanejvýš 3,5% což není taková pálka. Spíš kdy se to DPH z toho platí ? Hned na celnici nebo musím podat něco jako daňové přiznání ?<br />
* No tak zatím jsem zjistil že nejspíš jediná šance jak se osvobodit od cla a DPH je že všeci sedem do letadla a zajedem si pro to. Limit je 6000kč na jednu osobu starší 15-ti let.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mares''>>>> Clo se na tento druh zboží nevztahuje. Platí se pouze české DPH, který ti celníci vyměří z ''ceny zboží + doprava + clo'', pak ti v případě fyzické osoby zašlou na tvou poštu, kde uhradíš DPH jako dobírku. U podnikatele je to trošku jiné. VAT (čili americké DPH) na zboží nebude uvaleno, jelikož zboží je vyváženo z USA.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No a dá se tohle spočítat předem? Abysme mohli stanovit cenu?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> No dokud nebude jasne kolik bude stat postovne (typ + vaha) a jaky bude kurs dolaru, tak presna cena asi tezko.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>No co. Tak ti každý pošlem sedm tisíc s tím, že potom přebytky rozdělíš do obálek a budeš předávat s každým telefonem obálku. Jinak to asi dost dobře nepůjde. Jedině že by nám to sem dopravila česká pobočka FIC-u/foxconn. Ale to je podle mně nepravděpodobné.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>JJ take myslim, ze bych dal predbeznou cenu 7K s tim, ze uz je poslem, at muzes pruzne zareagovat a ne pak cekat az vsichni poslou.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>> Kdyby se zase Steve nebo někdo vyjádřil v jakém je to stavu a přidal předběžný odhad kdy se začne prodávat. Teďka je to těžko. Můžou ho vydat zítra ale taky třeba i za půl roku pokud se objeví nějaký složitý problém.<br />
Ještě k té předběžné ceně - dolar není za 15 korun ale za 16,1-16,2 korun I s DPH se do těch 7000 nespíš nevejdem. Jestli že se domluvíme žo začnem posílat peníze tak navrhuju posílat 7500. IMHO dolar už níž nepůjde.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Co jsem se zatím díval na možnosti přepravy (DHL,Fedex,UPS,USPS), tak nejvýhodněji vychází USPS ([http://www.usps.com/ usps.com]), kdy se pohybujeme kolem částky 120$ i s pojištěním (kdyby to bylo cca 10kg což pochybuji). Bohužel maximální pojištění činí 5 000$, přičemž celková částka balíku vychází na cca 7 580$ . U ostatních jsem ohledně pojištění nenašel zmínku, přičemž poštovné vycházelo většinou přes 500$. Z pohledu pojištění by bylo vhodné objednávky rozdělit. Ještě bude záležet jaké poštovní služby nabídnou v e-shopu. Včera u ČSOB byla prodejní cena dolaru na 16,44Kč/$ a musím bohužel souhlasit, že lepší to už nebude. Jinak ceník je k dispozici na této adrese [http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781 http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781] .<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Teď mně napadlo - co kdyby jsem někde založili učet (nejlépe spořící) v dolarech a poslali to tam teď ? [http://www.mesec.cz/clanky/ucet-v-cizi-mene-ano-ale-kde/] Kdyby tak člověk věděl že pozítru neoznámí prodej...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>> Tak urcite bych pockal s placenim na nejake jistejsi vyjadreni, ale necekal bych na otevreni kramu, tehdy uz by chtelo, aby se to dalo hned objednat, co se tyka uctu neverim, ze dolar spadne, ale ani ze poroste a tak bych to neresil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vzhledem k množství objednávaného zboží bych možná už využil dopravních společností, které za nás provedou celní odbavení. Aspoň metodický pokyny k vyplnění JSD (jednotný správní doklad) nejsou triviální a zabere to minimálně půlden. Ukázku dokumentu jsme nalezl zde: [http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/ http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/].<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> Dole v tom dopisu z celního úřadu se píše: "který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost" to nikdo z nás má?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >> '''[http://www.trisoft.de/en_freerunner.htm Evropský Distributor]''', ale je celkem dražší.<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Což o to, [http://www.pulster.de/ tady] je o 50 euro levnější, ale nemyslím si, že to bude ve výsledku výhodnější.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>> Co jsem se díval do pokynů, tak to může vyplnit i fyzická osoba, jelikož každý způsobilý občan může provést obchodní činnost. Pouze nesmí být opakovaného rázu, tj. jednorázové obchody. Zkusím se tedy dotázat konkrétněji na tuto část. Ohledně toho evropského distributora nevím. Odhadem to vychází přes 1000 Kč dráž bez poštovného a bez bonusů. Jestliže se nám poradí vyřešit problém s celním úřadem, tak bych spíše volil objednávku z USA. Připadá mi, že tyhle obchody to jen objednají v USA, přijmou a přepošlou s přirážkou.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >>>> Take jsem pro USA, jen sem to nasel a ac ten od Radka Machulky je uz zajimavejsi tak verim, ze se dostanem i pod nej a jeste je tam ten obal a sluchatka.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Já jsem též pro USA. Ještě by bylo možné (teoreticky) zkusit si to objednat přes nějakého (mešího) obchodníka co bere věci od FIC-u<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''> Tož sem [[GroupSales#Aktu.C3.A1ln.C4.9B|vyhlásil konkurz]] na koordinátora pražské větve a snad se najde někdo kdo je schopen se vejít do těch zásadních bodů co jsem tam nastínil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Relativně požadavky splňuji. Mám studentský ČSOB účet mající limit na 1,5M, kartu Visa Classic, angličtinu zvládám na úrovni čtení technické dokumentace, bydlím na Barrandově a jabber též mám (ivir@jabbim.com). Jen tu důvěryhodnost nemám. :) S tím clem to bude ještě zajímavé, ale snad mi ohledně toho ještě poradí z celního úřadu. V nouzi mám k dispozici i OSVČ. :)<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Dle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017531.html příspěvku] bude dovoz zboží do USA zahájen někdy 1.června. K tomu je nutné připočítat min. týden až 3 než zboží dorazí do skladů. Z příspěvku teoreticky vyplývá, že bude i evropský HUB. Snad to bude za stejnou částku a s bonusy. :)<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>Podle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017607.html příspěvku] by měl webový shop odkazovat na us i eu a to vypadá čím dál nadějnějš co se týká poštovného aj cla.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' jestli to dobře překládám tak není jasné jakým způsobem to půjde z činy - jestli lodí nebo letadlem ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Ano, aspoň takto jsem to pochopil i já. Problémem je ta doba dodání. Jinak co se týká vyřízení JSD (cla), tak u zprostředkovatele [http://www.kama-eu.cz/ KAMA s.r.o.>, jež mi doporučil celní úřad, vychází na cca 1000 Kč viz ceník, což mi připadá přijatelné.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No mně ty informace od Steva přijdou vždycky nějaké zmatené. Nevědí jestli lodí nebo letadlem, ale odejít by to snad mělo až 1.6. (nebo co má znamenat to datum, v jeho zprávě), takže to ještě docela potrvá... :-(<br />
Jan Mareš: můžeš prosím popsat co přesně má být těch 1000Kč a jak se na to přijde? Já tomu pořád nějak nerozumím...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> <font color="gray">best case is I would start to test phones around the first of june. Then<br />
pack and ship.<br />
</font>1.6. začíná testovat telefony a potm je balit a odesílat.<br><br />
<font color=gray>The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically you<br />
build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy% pass the test, and the factory says.<br />
"good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on the<br />
test software, because that bad phone really was good." arrg.</font> Ale toto nějak moc nechápu.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vychází to takto: 250 Kč (vypracování JSD), 30 Kč (vypracování hodnoty), 250 Kč (jednani za deklaranta), 30 Kč (avízo) a pak asi ručení (350). Je to můj odhad a po konkrétním dotaze by měli sdělit částku. Asi tedy bude třeba připočítat poštovné (250 Kč). Zatím jsem jim napsal dotaz ohledně nepodnikající osoby s tímto množstvím, tak jsem zvědav kdy odpoví.<br />
Tu další část považuji za povzdychnutí, kdy jim vyrobili více telefonů z nichž jen část prošla a továrna chce tohle číslo minimalizovat a že dané chyby byly spíše SW povahy.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' Podle toho co píšeš bych řekl že by vyšlo levněj kdyby jsme brali všechny telefony dohromady.Jaké má výhody osamostatnění Prahy ?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' No nedokazeme pojistit 30telefonu na jejich cenu pri doprave, ale jinak pokud by to clo vyrizovala firma asi by to bylo vyhodnejsi.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Trochu mě znepokojují zprávy v community e-mail archivu, kde uvádějí, že openmoko e-shop využívá služeb UPS. U nich by nebyl problém s pojištěním, ale ty ceny. Cena je de facto konstantní na cca 600$ (při 10kg balíčku), takže pak by bylo vhodné objednávku shrnout dohromady. Pak by to vycházelo o cca 10$ na hlavu více. Snažím se přesvědčit otce jako OSVČ, že by byla objednávka napsaná na něj a tím pádem by odpadl problém s využitím výše uvedené společnosti od nichž jsem dostal zamítavé stanovisko ohledně "neobchodní zásilky".<br />
<br />
Pak už zbývá využít evropského distributora Pulster.de . Teoreticky mi vychází částka při dovozu z US na 7600 Kč a u Pulsteru na 7 660Kč bez poštovné. Avšak za předpokladu společné hromadné objednávky. V opačném případě je nutné připočíst u US objednávky cca tisícovku (při 10 lidech).<br />
<br />
Zapomněl jsem tedy dodat, že zboží by bylo v republice za 4-5 dnů + pár dnů na vyřízení celního řízení.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> veškeré spekulace jsou zatím velmi předběžné, protože ani sami prodejci ještě nemají jasno, za jakých podmínek budou FreeRunner prodávat. Každopádně Pulster se mi docela zamlouvá (viz níže), vypadá že s panem majitelem se dá rozumně domluvit. Asi mu řeknu že objednávám telefonů 40, aby byl kdyžtak ochoten větší slevy nebo nějakého zvýhodnění a nechám tu zásilku jenom rozdělit a poslat do Prahy a sobě... Ale jak říkám, pořád ještě je všechno předběžné, definitivně se rozhodne asi už během tohoto měsíce.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> Ještě jedna novinka: pan Christoph Pulster z pulster.de mně oznámil zahájení prodeje debug boardu za "lidovou" cenu 149€ což je docela rozdíl oproti 99$... Takže jak říkám, všechno jsou teď jenom teoretické úvahy jak objednávku zorganizovat. Ikdyž osobně dávám pulster.de naděje, myslím, že se na ceně jak debugboardu, tak telefonu, bude dát domluvit, stejně jako nulová cena za dopravu zní přijatelně :-)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Pražáků je docela nešťastý počet. Jediné co mně napadá je pokusit se domluvit s Plusterem že by vzal 4 desítky z toho nám přeposlal těch 34 a zbytek by si nechal a prodal. A taky chci poděkovat Martinu Šenkeříkovi za to že se o nás tak stará.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>Tak je otázkou jak vlastně Pulster bude fungovat. Jako evropský distributor by měl od openmoko odbržet třeba 500ks (na dluh), které pak prodává. Z tohoto pohledu je jedno jaký počet telefonů se objedná. Pochybuji, že ta distribuce je založena na tom, že mi mu zaplatíme a on to objedná z US skladu. Pak by se určitě lépe hodil nákup přímo z US, kdy skrze UPS by se vyřídily všechny formality s celním úřadem. Rozhodující je konečná cena u Pulsteru.<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Tak to vypada, ze si budeme moci vybrat: [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-June/019117.html list]<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Žel s ohledem na co nejnižší cenu jsou oba distributori mimo hru, kdy se pohybujeme s cenou kolem 8 700Kč, což je hnedle o tisícikorunu více než při objednání z US. Doufejme, že Pulster nahodí lepší cenu.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' > To je mrzuté. Vypadá to, že se všichni distributoři rozhodli, že si na tom namastí kapsu a spoléhají na to, že nic podobného neexistuje a že je to novinka...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >> Podle té dvojnásobné ceny debug boardu se dá soudit, že nám nic jiného než US nezbude,tyhle EU distributoři jsou fakt jen zlatokopové.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Doufám že je amíci nezančou dorovnávat.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík'' > Jak jsem už několikrát psal, na jakékoliv spekulace je pořád brzo, situace se stále vyvíjí -> pulster dnes debugboard oficiálně slevnil na 99€. Takže ještě pořád není rozhodnuto. Prostě počkáme s čím kdo přijde (případně distributory trošku nakopnu sám :-)). "Amíci" je rozhodně dorovnávat nezačnou, když od "amíků" to ti Evropští distributoři objednávají ;-)<br />
<br />
''Miloslav Machotka'' > K diskuzi o zvolení prodejce. Já jsem určitě pro Pulster. Cena je myslím dobrá a hlavně to ušetří Martinu Šenkeříkovi práci, které s náma má i tak dost. A pokud jsem to správně pochopil, řeší to i problém s počtem telefonů nedělitelným deseti. Všichni dostanou za svoje peníze totéž.<br />
<br />
''František Horínek'' > Veľmi si vážim to, čo pre nás Martin Šenkeřík robí ale mam pocit, že 299€ je viac ako $399 a potom sa stráca akákoľvek zľava. Neviete niekto koľko by stála doprava z USA?<br />
<br />
''Miloslav Machotka'' >> Podle dnešního kurzu to vychází následovně. 299€ = 7240 kč. 369$ = 5777kč * 1,19 DPH = 6875 kč. A to v tom nemáte dopravu a tu práci s vyřizováním. Nabídka Pulsteru mi přijde jako výhodná.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík'' >> Ok, myslel jsem že je to tu někde sepsané, ale radši to připomenu: 299€ (cca 7300Kč) je definitivní cena, to je cifra kterou dá každý z nás za telefon v případě objednávky od Pulstera. <br />
Naopak cena 369$ (cca 5830Kč) není ani zdaleka konečná. Připočítáme daň 19% a dostaneme se na cca 7000Kč. Stále ještě zbývá připočítat clo a poštovné (aspoň doufám, že jsem správně pochopil, co se podařilo zjistit ostatním). A to nepočítám pravděpodobné papírování a obíhání úřadů (ikdyž někdo myslím psal, že UPS to všechno řeší sama). Když už ne levněji, tak to vyjde minimálně na stejno... Kdyžtak mě doplňte/opravte, kdo se těmi cly zabýval hlouběji.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš'' > Hezky shrnuto. UPS veškeré papírování ohledně DPH a cla řeší. Telefony spadají do 0% cla, takže se platí jen DPH, které je však vypočítávané i s dopravou, která je je celkem vysoká, aspoň při vypůjčení odhadů od Švýcarů, tj. 3kg za 10 telefonů, tak poštovné bude činit přes 10 000Kč. Takže to vychází nastejno či díky klesajícímu euru i výhodněji. Navíc plusem je 2letá záruka, naproti jednoleté z US.<br />
<br />
''František Horínek'' >> Ďakujem za objasnenie na DPH som úplne zabudol. Máte pravdu je to výhodné<br />
<br />
''Luboš Podrázský'' >> Zdravím, tak jsem taky pro Pulster.de. Cena vyjde víceméně nastejno, méně starostí pro organizátory, delší záruka a jestli se tím vyřeší i počet kusů nedělitelný 10-ti, tak asi neni co řešit.<br />
<br />
''Michal Pěnka'' > Podle všech informací tady a na hlavní stránce groupsales se také přikláním k pulster. Dvouletá záruka není zanedbatelná. Už se těším :)<br />
<br />
''Karel Volný'' > Pokud od Pulster dostaneme totéž, jako bychom dostali z USA, tak těch případných pár korun navíc klidně obětuju ve prospěch jednodušší organizace.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' > jestli jsem dobře pochopil zprávu na [[Community Updates]] tak by se 4.Července mělo začít prodávat. (...) Jak vůbec bude probíhat potenciální vyřizování reklamace ? Já teda doufám že při prvních kusech budou číňani odpočatí a budou dělat kvalitně, ale při mém štěstí úplně vidím jak to zapnu a ono to zasmrdí...<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Co se týče objednávky, já osobně bych počkal na zahájení prodeje, t.j. na dobu, kdy bude jasné kdo a za jakých podmínek bude FR prodávat. Je pochopitelné, že Pulster.de nemůže potvrdit konečnou cenu, protože si ji víceméně vycucal z prstu.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš'' > Pulster předobjednávky nebere, tady jde spíše o stanovení částky, kterou Martin bude vybírat, aby se vracely jen drobné. Jde o urychlení objednávky, aby na nás vyšli ty univerzální stylusy. :) Ještě je nutné připočíst cca 3 dny na převod peněz na jejich účet. Ohledně té reklamace, tak při tomto způsobu objednání je nutné reklamované zboží zaslat do Pulsteru, kde bude reklamace vyřizována. Šlo by to přímo u FICu, ale české zastoupení prochází převzetím, viz vyjádření níže. Co jsem doposud zachytil, tak všechny FR jsou před balením testovány na funkčnost, takže může dojít k poškození jedině při přepravě, což bychom měli zachytit při přebírání zboží v Brně. Dle dostupných fotek balení jsou FR bytelně baleni, takže ani toto by nemělo hrozit.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >> Jasně že dělají všecko proto aby byl počet reklamací co nejnižší, konec konců šetří tak peníze sami sobě, ale jsou věci které se dost dobře odzkoušet nedají. Naštěstí FR nemá žádné klouby nebo kryty které by se časem mohly rozpadnout takže mi snad vydrží aspoň 5 let. (...) není jedno jestli se vrací 5korun nebo pětistovka ?<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Já spíš tlumil to nadšení z pulster.de jako nejvýhodnějšího prodejce. Taky si nemyslím, že by nějaký prodejce byl potenciálně vhodnější z pohledu uplatňování případných reklamací.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >> Tak pluster láká dvouletou zárukou.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >> Jestli to s Plusterem bude fungovat tak, že pošlu 7500 (tj 300EUR) a dostanu za to FR tak, sice nerad, ale oželím i ten obal. Ono z USA to nejspíš stejně nevyjde o moc levněj. Jestli vůbec. Pokud vezmu 369USD s kurzem 16Kč a k tomu 19% DPH tak jmse rázem na sedmi tisících a to jsme ještě nezaplatili poštovné, na které se to DPH taky vzathuje, + přpadné poplatky za bůhví co.<br />
Já jsem pro pluster.<br />
<br />
''Vojtěch Vozáb'' >> Asi bych taky byl pro pulster, protože dokud napevno neurčí cenu tak objednávka není závazná (opravte mě jestli se pletu), takže kdyby nějak zásadně zdražil, může se přinejhorším objednávka zrušit a objednat z Ameriky. Hlavně by bylo dobré vyřešit to rychle, pro mě je poslední termín kdy můžu zaplatit ve čtvrtek 26. června a pak až 4. července, mezi tím jsem pryč. To by sice mohlo stačit, protože prodej imho stejně dříve než 4. nezačne, ale bylo by samozřejmě lepší mít jistotu a shromáždit peníze v předstihu.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík'' > S Vojtou jsme to pořešili. A teď abysme zabili nějaký čas, než dorazí telefony k distributorům, bych se vás chtěl zeptat, jestli vám stačí, když číslo účtu pak pošlu mailem, hodím na svůj server a napíšu na wiki? Jestli se to někomu zdá málo bezpečné, navrhněte prosím lepší způsob.<br />
<br />
''František Horínek'' > Ja si osobne myslím, že mail podpísaný pgp-čkom určite nič nepokazíte. Tiež by nebolo zle hodiť to na osobný server z SSL a rozdistribuovať fingerprint certifikátu. Možno ešte spraviť SHA a/alebo MD5 sumy čísla účtu/IP adresy servera. Hashe a fingerprinty rozosielať iba mejlom. Možno spraviť IRC server na ktorý sa bude dať dostať iba cez VPN/SSH z overovaním kľúča. Samotná komunikácia môže prebiehať v nejakej klasickej šifre napr. Vernamova šifra, ktorá je doteraz považovaná bez klúča za neprelomitelnú. Ale to už je moc veľa paranoje, či nie? :-)<br />
<br />
''František Horínek'' > teraz ma napadlo, že by sa dali použiť slová z mejlov, keď ste si kontrolovali naše adresy z distribučnej siete, na prístup na v osobný server, Server by sa potom autentifikoval inou časťou mejlu, potom by sa zobrazilo číslo účtu. Tieto texty by potencionálny útočník nemal ako získať.<br />
<br />
Napr 1-3 slovo z prvého odstavca mejlu<br />
<br />
ssh/https: zadajte 1-3 slovo z 1 odstavca mejlu<br />
zadám: "Dnes bylo oficialne"<br />
odpove: 4-5 slovo 1 odstavec "potvrzeno zahajeni"; čislo účtu je 123456789<br />
<br />
tým pádom získam informáciu ktorá je adresovaná len pre oúzky kruh ľudí a ja viem, že tá informácia nie je podvodná.<br />
<br />
Len preto, že som paranoidný neznamená, že ma nesledujú. Idú po mne. :-D<br />
<br />
'' Martin Šenkeřík '' > Uf... No problém je jeden, právě mně dorazil email z Pulster s exkluzivní nabídkou: dorazila mu první zásilka telefonů, obchod ještě neotevírá, ale nám už to nabízí ke koupi. Tzn. můžeme začít vybírat peníze, cenu 299€ potvrdil. Bližší info zveřejním za chvíli. A já už takovou ověřovací aplikaci nestihnu implementovat. Můžeme ještě využít jabber ohin@jabbim.cz - někteří lidé se mnou už komunikovali, takže potvrdí že za ním jsem opravdu já. A můžu pro největší paranoiky odpovědět libovolné otázky. Příp. mám v profilu vyplněn i telefon na sebe.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >> Pokud mám číslo účtu někoho - jak mu s tím můžu ublížit? Já bych to s tím zabezpečování nepřeháněl. Už jenom proto že posílám nemalý peníz na účet člověka, kterého jsem nikdy neviděl. Rozešli mailem variabilní symboly nebo něco podobného ať naše platby můžeš identifikovat. a nebo ti můžeme do zprávy pro příjemce napsat každý svoje jméno.<br />
<br />
''Milan Šedý'' >> Taky myslím, že nemusíme být až tak paranoidní. Na identifikaci stačí podle mě zpráva pro příjemce se jménem.<br />
<br />
''Jan Černý'' >> Jestli jsem správně pochopil ten email od Pulstera, tak se všechno příslušenství včetně obalu a headsetu musí objednat zvlášť. Jak se to bude zařizovat?<br />
<br />
=== Doplňující informace ===<br />
* '''Vyjádření Pulster.de na objednávku většího množství telefonů:'''<br />
Hello,<br />
<br />
on OpenMoko wiki they announced: "Every 10 pack, will come with<br />
a box of stuff. 10 pouches and 10 head sets." Will this offer<br />
also be available in your shop? Some discount and bonus gadgets?<br />
I already want to order 20-30 phones to Czech Republic, so I am<br />
trying to find the best way, how to order this amount. Either<br />
from USA or from EU.<br />
<br />
Thank you, Martin Senkerik<br />
<br />
Hello,<br />
<br />
thanks a lot for asking. Right now we dont have Freerunner in<br />
stock, so no idea about earphones/pouches, sorry.<br />
I am happy to provide Czech users with OpenMokos. No customs,<br />
no paperwork, I have a lot CZ customers.<br />
Allow me to put you on the info list once it is avalaible and you<br />
get clear infos about all. We can work out free shipping and <br />
maybe some goodies.<br />
<br />
<br />
heres the standard info text:<br />
<br />
The new modell is called "Freerunner" (version GTA02).<br />
It will be available end of June 2008. We try to aim 300-350 EUR<br />
sales price.<br />
Once it's ready to ship, you willfind it in our shop.<br />
We do not make pre-orders of items we dont have in hands,<br />
so please understand. Once the Freerunner is in stock, ready to<br />
ship, we will send you a one-time info mail (we do not send<br />
you any spam, dont worry).<br />
<br />
Of course we are happy you bookmark us and come back to check<br />
for the nice Freerunner. Please find a small datasheet here:<br />
http://www.pulster.de/info/pdas/openmoko/freerunner-flyer.pdf<br />
<br />
<br />
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,<br />
Christoph Pulster<br />
<br />
* '''Moje komunikace s pobočkou FIC v ČR:'''<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
Taiwanský FIC v nejbližších dnech začne s prodejem mobilního telefonu<br />
Neo FreeRunner (www.openmoko.com). Chci se zeptat, jestli bude možné případné<br />
reklamace a opravy řešit u vás?<br />
<br />
Zatím není známý přesný způsob distribuce tohoto telefonu pro Evropu<br />
a Českou republiku. Nebude vaše pobočka zapojena do distribuční sítě?<br />
<br />
Děkuji za odpověď, Martin Šenkeřík<br />
Odpověď:<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
FIC CZ s.r.o. v těchto měsících přechází pod Foxconn CZ.<br />
V případě reklamace či informací se obracejte přímo na FIC TW.<br />
Kontaktní osobou na Zákaznickém oddělení je<br />
<br />
Mr. James Chang<br />
Customer Service Department<br />
Te.: +886 2 8751 8751 ext.6196<br />
James_chang@fic.com.tw<br />
<br />
S pozdravem<br />
<br />
Jarka Ripplova<br />
<br />
* '''Dotaz na celní úřad ohledně zpracování zásilky:'''<br />
Věc: Informace<br />
<br />
K Vaší žádosti o informaci týkající se hromadného dovozu zásilky pro osobní<br />
potřebu více příjemců Vám sdělujeme:<br />
<br />
Za zásilku zboží neobchodní povahy se ve smyslu celních předpisů považují<br />
zásilky, které jsou dováženy příležitostně a které obsahují výhradně zboží<br />
určené k osobnímu užití příjemců nebo jejich rodin, přičemž toto zboží nesmí<br />
povahou ani množstvím svědčit o obchodním úmyslu dovozce. Z uvedeného<br />
vyplývá, že tzv. sběrná zásilka nemůže být považována za zásilku zboží<br />
neobchodní povahy, i když obsah je určen pro osobní potřebu soukromých osob.<br />
Při dovozu zásilky obchodní povahy je zásilka zadržena při vstupu na celní<br />
území EU a příjemce vyzván k předložení celního prohlášení. Celní formality<br />
uskutečňuje příjemce, který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost.<br />
<br />
Pro zboží zařazené v některé z podpoložek čísla 8517 je celním sazebníkem EU<br />
stanovena sazba cla 0 %. Při dovozu zásilky zboží obchodního charakteru<br />
celní orgány posuzují, zda zboží nepodléhá zvláštnímu řízení podle zákona č.<br />
38/1994 Sb., o zahraničním obchodu s vojenským materiálem. Vedle cla se při<br />
propuštění dovezeného zboží do volného oběhu v tuzemsku vyměřuje DPH v<br />
základní sazbě 19 %. Základem pro vyměření DPH je cena, za kterou bylo zboží<br />
prodáno do EU, ke které se přičtou náklady na dopravu zásilky do EU, podle<br />
příslušných ustanovení zákona o DPH.<br />
<br />
Celní dluh, jehož součástí je i DPH, se vyměří v českých korunách z celní<br />
hodnoty převedené na české koruny v kurzu platném pro příslušné období.<br />
Aktuální kurzy měn jsou uveřejněny na stránkách Celní správy České republiky<br />
www.cs.mfcr.cz cestou Servis - Kurzovní lístky.<br />
<br />
== To open Colombia groupsales ==<br />
<br />
I wan to open the Colombia-Bogotá group sales.<br />
I want Neo advanced, no matter if the rest of the people wants the other.<br />
my mail: arawaco@ieee.org<br />
Ideas are welcome<br />
<br />
== USA ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#San_Francisco_Bay_Area San Francisco Bay Area] ===<br />
If everyone agrees [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm I] will pick up and pay for the 10 units from Fremont.<br />
Payment Options...<br />
* Bring cash to the arranged meetup to get the device. (I can arrange to meet up with individuals if needed)<br />
* We need to pay CA tax so keep that in mind, I'll try to get the exact price prior to pickup<br />
* Make sure you have confirmed with me your intention to buy the unit, the priority order will be the order that the list is currently in, any unconfirmed member of the group will be slipped to the bottom of the list on the day the units are available<br />
<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/dufflebunk dufflebunk]<br />
I'm all alone in the second group. I guess if anyone from the first group has to drop out I'll be happy to take their place. I would prefer cash (or cheque), Paypal sucks. <br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/krid krid said: ]<br />
I'm in for cash, just tell me where to show up. However, unless Steve says it'll be massively boring, I'd like to go to Fremont and see the facility. I'll be out of town at OSCON the last week of July, so hopefully we'll be able to do this before then. If not, I'll make arrangements with Jim.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm Jim said: ]<br />
I'll let everyone know when I'm going to Fremont to pick them up (Sounds like the first week in July), so anyone who wants to tag along is welcome and we can distribute them then and there.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Cry_Regarder Cry Regarder] At the time I moved myself from separate monterey to san francisco, there were 8 folks listed. That was 27 May. Jim Lutz wasn't in the list yet. Accordingly, I moved one of mine from the post 10 to above and swapped Jim Lutz down.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Xeromist Kelley said: ]<br />
That's fine Jim. I didn't ask to be given any special treatment and I want everything to remain fair. If we are able to form 2 full groups are you willing to buy for both or will we need to select a distributor for group 2 as well?<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm Jim said: ]<br />
I suspect we will need a second coordinator for the second group, $4k is a lot to fork out at one time, $8k is out of the question for me! However right now I think we can get everyone who has replied a unit from the first 10, unless one of the non-repliers contacts me before we pick up we won't need a second group.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Cry_Regarder Cry Regarder] I emailed "Steve" at openmoko and he said that they are working on the logistics for bulk buys of fractional case lots for quantities over 10. I don't know if they'll sort it out before they arrive though. Another possibility is to join in with LA...they'll probably appreciate having them picked up.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Discuss any other ideas here.</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Group_salesTalk:Group sales2008-06-25T14:13:21Z<p>Mivaho: /* The Netherlands */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
== England ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}<br />
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?<br />
<br />
:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.<br />
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
::Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====<br />
<br />
I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?<br />
<br />
I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?<br />
<br />
In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(<br />
<br />
:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] - [mailto:stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk let me know] if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
<br />
Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)<br />
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.<br />
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but<br />
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}<br />
<br />
<br />
Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php<br />
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen<br />
<br />
Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van <br />
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd <br />
zou willen zien worden.<br />
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie <br />
over het te leveren artikel.<br />
<br />
Uw naam J. de Haan<br />
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
Artikelinformatie<br />
Merk openmoko<br />
Naam freerunner<br />
Website openmoko.com<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen <br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor <br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail <br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
E-mailcontact - verzonden<br />
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.<br />
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)<br />
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not<br />
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out <br />
on Utrecht CS :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)<br />
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? <br /><br />
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1." <br />
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.<br />
<br />
{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will have 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Belgium Belgium]. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.<br />
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:<br />
<br />
Geachte heer,<br />
<br />
Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
<br />
Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx<br />
Product Management / Technical Support<br />
<br />
Salland Automatisering<br />
<br />
Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post. <br /><br />
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.<br />
from Jan de Haan <haan.j.de@gmail.com><br />
to inkoop@azerty.nl,<br />
date Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM<br />
subject Openmoko - Freerunner<br />
mailed-by gmail.com<br />
<br />
hide details 8:52 PM (0 minutes ago)<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen<br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor<br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
Een importeur schijnt trisoft.de te zijn. Let wel: dit product is<br />
nog niet op de markt,<br />
al zijn de laatste test productie runs klaar.<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail<br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken. <br /><br />
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):<br />
<br />
=== Votes for a reseller ===<br />
{|border=1<br />
!Name<br />
!Trisoft<br />
!Open Source Nieuws Nederland<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (Subject to a solution for warranty)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[Special:Emailuser/User:PWerken|Peter van de Werken]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (note: I'll buy 2 Freerunners)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (If warranty is OK)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|'''Total'''<br />
|<br />
|10<br />
|}<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:<br />
Beste Yorick,<br />
<br />
Bedankt voor je mail en informatie; ik kende de toestellen niet, maar zou ze<br />
best eens van dichtbij willen bekijken. Het 'developer' model lijkt me dan<br />
echter weer minder interessant voor ons; het 'consumer' model zou eind 2008<br />
op de markt moeten komen?<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
With kind regards,<br />
<br />
Michael Brus<br />
Manager PDAshop<br />
<br />
<br />
Coolblue<br />
Molenbaan 11 . 2908 LL Capelle a/d IJssel . www.coolblue.nl<br />
<br />
Coolblue is...<br />
MP3shop.nl . PDAshop.nl . Digicamshop.nl . GPSshop.nl .<br />
Smartphoneshop.nl . Consoleshop.nl . Telefoonshop.nl . meer...<br />
<br />
Should I forward this to Michael Shiloh?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 07/05} I'll vote to wait until there are actually phones shipping, until that time, the more people we gather here, and maybe other dealers, the better the deal we get(I hope).<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 08/05} <br />
Well, I want to have the phone as soon as possible. The best deal ever isn't my main concern.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 13/05}<br />
I've been browsing the mailing list, and found [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/016971.html this post] from Openmoko's Steve. Group sales have 28 days of DOA (Dead On Arrival) coverage, and single sales have 14 days of DOA coverage. Which I think is reasonable. BTW, I don't think there will be a better deal than the $369 per phone for the 10-pack. <br /><br />
We currently have enough people to fill 2 10-packs, which is awesome! <br /><br />
What we do need to figure out are the import costs, and the shipping costs. (it's shipped via UPS, if I recall correctly from the mailing list.)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 22/05}<br />
<br />
I wouldn't be too sure that this is financially going to be the best deal. This message in the community mailing list (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017668.html) shows interesting info regarding Pulster.<br />
----<br />
''Christph Pulster wrote:<br />
''> about 10 pack orders - we try to be cheaper than the 10-order-<br />
''> pack-price ! so no need to collect ten local buyers.<br />
<br />
''This sounds so good...! I'm waiting for official news (and maybe infos<br />
about the gifts too)...''<br />
----<br />
'''I checked their webpage and they advertise with OpenMoko Freerunner 299 eur'''<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 22/05} I checked their website too and it says 'Sobald der Freerunner wirklich lieferbar ist, ist er an dieser Stelle mit konkretem Preis zu finden und real bestellbar.' Which could mean that the price will be something other than 299 euro.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I like the pulster deal a lot, even if they are the same price as buying the 10 pack in the US the warranty part is a lot better seeing Germany is next door to us. Only thing is that you would mis out on the pouch and headset, dunno if that's such a great loss. And they say they will be going under the price of the US 10 pack order if you order the 10 from them. So maybe a vote on yes or no to the pouch/headset deal? Maybe we should check if with Pulster a group order of 10+ will always give the discount. Like 22 will get the same discount and that we are not forced in getting groups of ten people.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I wrote an e-mail to pulster with the questions so I will post the answer here when I get one.<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 24/05} <br />
The pouch and headset are not that important IMO. I guess most join the group sale for convenience and reduce cost. But maybe I'm wrong.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
<br />
'''From the community mailing list again:<br />
<br />
'''Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote [to Pulster - Ed.]:<br />
''>> 1. Do you know when you'll be approximately able to define a price?<br />
''>> 2. The Freerunner will be shipped with extra goodies (generally<br />
''>> given only to people buying a 10-pack (ie: pouch and headset)?<br />
''> <br />
<br />
'''From Pulster [Ed.]<br />
<br />
''> Price fix ASAP I have the units in own hands/stocks.<br />
''> 299-319 eur is really realistic.<br />
''> <br />
''> All goodies included at PULSTER !<br />
''> <br />
''> Also can be bought a lot accessories extra very soon (debug board, pens, <br />
''> cases etc)<br />
''> <br />
''> you see, I will make all your wishes true :)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/05} Yeah, read that message in the weekend, no reply to my mail at this moment but seeing this message straight from pulster I would say that we should buy directly from pulster as a group. Warranty wise it's better as well.<br />
<br />
399 U.S. dollars is about 253 Euros and including VAT that would become 301.07 Euro so pulster with their price being 299 Euro (see below) has a good price and for 10 and more there is a discount just like in the US. I would propose to take the dutch group sale to Pulster.<br />
<br />
The following mail from Chis Pulster was on the list also.<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
I am Chris from pulster.eu - my hello to this great community.<br />
<br />
May I add some points from my side:<br />
<br />
- Freerunner - ready to order ASAP it is available. We do not<br />
take pre-orders of items we dont have in hands. For a one-time info- <br />
mail once the Freerunner is ready to order, please just email me <br />
mailto: christoph@pulster.de<br />
- we aim a Freerunner price tag of 299 EUR incl. VAT<br />
- shipping worldwide with DHL, Europa 15 EUR, World 30 EUR postage<br />
- soon we offer accessories for Freerunner like spare batterie, charger, <br />
Headset, pouch and also the debug-board<br />
- group-sales make local communities, that is wonderful. I am happy to <br />
sell Freerunner separately or in packages.<br />
<br />
Many thanks,<br />
Chris<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
Indeed let's take the dutch group sale to Pulster. We are with 22 so we should be able to make a good deal regarding the goodies. And in that way no-one has to take any financial risk.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 28/05} My guess is, that for a group buy at pulster there is still one entity needed for buying the devices. The thing is that with pulster, as with the US deal, the waranty should be per person and not named for the buying entity.<br />
<br />
:I don't think that we need to do the 'group buy' at Pulster. You can just buy the device at 299 a piece there. I would like to have the pouch though, if they can assure me that the pouch and other goodies would be included in the deal (because they of course could make a number of 'groupbuys' for the entire customer base), then count me in.--[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
:: Your absolutly right on this one, been thinking about it and the possible discount we would be getting would wasted on shipping within the Netherlands again. Like you said, if there are goodies involved it's a different deal of course :) . --[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
:::So let's start negotiating with Pulster regarding the goodies. We can bring in 22 customers, so he has something to win. It might be important to know whether Pulster takes credit card payments. I cannot find that option on their webpage and an electronic banktransfer will add another 15 (?) euro.[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
<br />
:::: Bank payments to germany are free of charge, at least for my bank (Rabobank).{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]]}<br />
<br />
:::: I'm afraid they don't accept credit cards (from their [http://www.pulster.de/engl/imprint.htm About Us page]:<br />
<br />
We do not accept any other payment option like PayPal, Reembourse/Cash-on-delivery (COD) payments, <br />
direct CreditCard payments, any kind of cheques, western union, postal money orders, cash. Please dont <br />
ask, we do not accept none of this options thanks to a very few but very expensive scams. <br />
<br />
:::: Nice double negative in there, btw. But still, 299+15 is less than 350 or 400. ;) --[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
::::: If it is going to be a group sale (if pulster provides the goodies) it would be (discounted price * 22 + transfer rate + (21 * shipping within Holland)) [[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
:::::: Are you assuming that we'd get a discounted price when we order in bulk? I have not seen any evidence that Pulster will lower the price even more, when done like that. But indeed, we'd have 22 * whatever-price-the-freerunner-will-get-at-Pulster + shipping costs... but then we are back at the discussion of how to deal with the warranty. Will Pulster give separate invoices for each of the phones in the pack? --[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 02/06} Okay I got an answer from Chris Pulster. I had 2 main questions that he answered and they were 1. Will the pouch and other goodies be included with a group sale as would be if we were to buy in the states. 2. Is a group sale, like in the states, limited to groups of ten or will the discount be for all phones bought in bulk. This is what he had to say:<br />
<br />
about your question: at the moment we dont know about pouch/headsets <br />
included or not. I will tell you a more reliable answer if Freerunners <br />
are in stocks.<br />
my discount system and sales are full flexibel (no ten-pack limitations)<br />
let us talk and we find a nice offer for the dutch OpenMoko community !<br />
<br />
<br />
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,<br />
Christoph Pulster<br />
<br />
We will have to take a look at what the discount will be and if it is worth it considering we will have extra shipping cost in holland.<br />
<br />
If the shipping costs will be too high, i would be willing to pick the phones up myself, if my expenses are covered. We have to figure out further distribution though. {[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 03/06}<br />
<br />
{[[User:Atilla|Atilla Filiz]] 19/06} Don't we have a chance for direct shipping from Taiwan? The phones are produced there anyway.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 20/06} We could but the problem would be that we would be buying it for consumer prices where Pulster buys a whole lot, and being a reseller pays a reseller price, or better yet a distributors price. So my bet is that we would be better of getting it from pulster than from Taiwan because that would not be much cheaper then getting it from the States.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Atilla|Atilla Filiz]] 22/06} Any news from Pulster or any other possible importer yet?<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/06} I got some news from Christoph just now but am waiting for permission to post it here, nothing earth chattering but just want his permission seeing it is a private e-mail. I'll keep you posted.<br />
<br />
== Canada ==<br />
==== GTA (Toronto) ====<br />
{ --[[User:Argo|Argo]] 03:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC) }<br />
For group 1 it looks like they have actually gotten the 10 orders in? or am I them adding up wrong?<br />
<br />
== Croatia ==<br />
{--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 14:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)} '''ja ne bih da već sada radimo pan-balkansku grupu, iskreno sam iznenađen odazivom do sada, pa jedino možda ako ne skupimo dovoljno ljudi do kraja ovog tjedna...'''<br />
<br />
moj post sa hr.comp.os.linux upućen mnalisu;<br />
<br />
> BTW, ti si zapravo kontaktirao HULK i rekli su ti da bi to oni isli raditi i<br />
<br />
> gnjaviti se sa svim tim, ili ih cisto spominjes onako u smislu "pa oni su<br />
<br />
> dragi ljudi, sigurno ce besplatno uloziti mjesece svog zivota u to u zamjenu<br />
<br />
> za pivu" ?<br />
<br />
Davio sam ih malo zadnja dva dana na IRCu, i prema logu načelno su za<br />
da se narudžbe hendlaju preko njih. A i mislim da se ipak ne radi o<br />
mjesecima života bačenih za pivu, more like možda 2-3 sata za gajbu<br />
ili dvije :), hell ako je toliko teško napravit ću ja sve, učlanit se<br />
u HULK ako treba<br />
<br />
ali do toga trenutka ovako ja razmišljam:<br />
<br />
1.) skupimo 10 zainteresiranih<br />
2.) ja nazovem carinu i agenciju za telekomunikacije<br />
3.) pitamo openmoko za shipping estimate<br />
4.) ako su svi i dalje za, skupljanje sredstava i na kraju narudžba<br />
<br />
dakle ništa nije obligatory, idemo step by step, onog trenutka kada se<br />
prijavi 10 ljudi na wikiju ja zovem nadležne službe, pa ćemo vidit di<br />
stojimo sa uvozom i tim''<br />
<br />
nemoj odmah "worst case scenario" :)<br />
<br />
>> mozda da se malo na elitesecurity.org pokrene rasprava?<br />
<br />
--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 10:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC) svakako, ja sam za<br />
<br />
== Czech Republic ==<br />
Distribuční seznam, základní informace naleznete v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Czech_Republic GroupSales]<br />
<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Diskuze Diskuze]<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Dopl.C5.88uj.C3.ADc.C3.AD_informace Doplňující informace]<br />
<br />
=== Diskuze ===<br />
''Martin Holec''> Máme tu 4x ze Zlína, co kdyby někdo jel do Brna pro 4ks a ve Zlíně by se rozdělili?<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> jak jsem psal, já do Zlína jezdívám, a od května do září budu ve Zlíně velmi často, takže se Zlínem není vůbec problém.<br />
<br />
Jinak už se objevily nějaké termíny. Jestli jsem to dobře pochopil, tak 9.5. by už mohla začít masová výroba a brzy na to by měl začít prodej...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak by měl vlastně vypadat? Takový ten bíly se mně moc nelíbí. Radši bych měl [http://http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:FIC-neo1973_small.jpg černý].<br />
<br />
''Michal Pěnka''> Protože jsem jedenáctý a nevím, jestli bude možné objednat 11 kusů nebo jen po desítkách, domluvím se s Tomem Vargou později (jestli by byl ochotný pro převoz do Prahy), každopádně bych také raději ten černý.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak to tak tady pročítám tak to půjde objednat za zvýhodněnou cenu (+pytlík? a headset) opravdu jenom po desítkách. Ale IMHO když této stránce zvedneme popularitu (případně přiberem Slováky) tak jich budem nakonec brát minimálně dvacet ;) Mně osobně připadá datum 9.5. hodně optimistické.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> FreeRunner bude pouze v jedné barevné variantě, a to černý. To datum 9.5. mám [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates odsud]<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>Nemáte někdo fotku freerunnera ? na wiki jsem zatím našel jenom fotky GTA1-čky<br />
<br />
''David Kozub''>> Jelikoz se vyskytuju ve Zline i v Praze, muzu zajistit prevoz do Prahy.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No tak například tady to máš dokonce na videu: http://youtube.com/watch?v=k9QLdK6pFCI ;-) Ale jinak i na wiki se povalují fotky FreeRunnera. Například hned ta první na hlavní stránce ;-)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> To video je parádní. Co se týče té fotky z úvodu wiki, myslel jsem, že je to jenom render. Jinak jak jsem tak bloudil po stránkách české pošty - nejlevněj to nejspíš vyjde poslat jako profibalík za myslím že 64korun. Za dobírku se něco ještě připlácí. Balík je pojištěný do 100 000. [http://www.cpost.cz:80/jetspeed/portal/media-type/html/user/anon/page/default.psml/js_pane/sluzbyonline%2Czasilky?docid=370&calc_lb0=10424&calc_cb0=1 více zde]<br />
<br />
ad. '''Praha (Čechy):'''<br />
<br />
''Tom Varga''>> Pokoušel jsem se vyčíst z mailing listu, jak je to s tou množstevní slevou - co jsem z toho pochopil, tak by neměl být problém objednat množství nedělitené desíti, ale ty kusy navíc jsou pak [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016432.html bez slevy] a [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016202.html bez bonusu]; pořád by se to ale vyplatilo skrze poštovné. Prozatím bych navrhl, aby se zájemci z Prahy (Čech) zapsali / potvrdili smazáním otazníku v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu], možná něco podobného pro Slovensko - momentálně to vypadá, že bude snazší sehnat 20 zájemců celkem a taky by se tím mohla situace trochu vyjasnit. Osobně jsem schopen zajistit dovoz z Brna do Prahy, Liberce, Jablonce n.N. a přilehlých končin. Případné návrhy sem ;)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>> Řekl bych že čím větší balík poletí za Ameriky sem tím levněj to vyjde. Pokud není poštovné na gramy. 20-ti zájemců se určitě dočkáme. Když počítám Františka Horínka z Bratislavy tak je nás 18. Co se týče bonusů na headsetu moc nelpím ale ten pytel by se mně vážně hodil. Často v kapse kombinuju mobil a klíče nebo šroubovák...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>> Poštovné samozřejmě není na gramy, ale na libry, neboli každých započatých 0.45 kg se platí, plus se poštovné započítává do cla, mimochodem taková zásilka asi jen tak přes celnici neprojde, takže je možné, že nikdo (příjemce) bude muset dodat na celnici případné dokumenty dokladující hodnotu zasílaného zboží.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>> Tak dle "platného" celního sazebníku by se clo nemělo platit. Viz [http://disk.jabbim.cz/ivir@jabbim.com/celni_sazebnik.pdf Sazebník] strana 568. Tedy by se hradilo pouze DPH. Aspoň si myslím, že 20 telefonů jako "dárek" asi neprojde.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>>> No tím lépe, ale tak já to beztak myslel jako celý celní dluh a to dph je právě i z poštovného.<br />
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''Miloslav Machotka''> Koukám že jsem trochu zaspal dění. :) V [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu] jsem se připsal k Praze. Mám to nejblíž, jsem z Vlašimi, ale jinak jsem pro to schopen dojet i do Brna. Jsem pro to aby se to vyřešilo, pokud možno, po desítkách a pak to rozvést (rozeslat) po Čechách a Slovensku. Bonusy se asi většině lidí hodí.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''>>>>>>> DPH musíme taky platit ?? To je mrzuté. Kolik mají DPH slováci ? nevyšlo by to levněj poslat do Bratislavy a stama ''"propašovat"'' k nám ? Když už máme ten šengen... Nevrátí nám třeba amíci DPH které za to zaplatili u nich ?<br />
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''Jan Mareš''>>>>>>>> Co je mi známo, tak při obchodování mimo zemi se DPH neúčtuje a účtuje se až v cílové zemi. Dle rok starého článku na měšci je základní sazba stejná, tj. 19%. Od DPH by to šlo odprostit pouze pokud by na tom balíku bylo napsáno, že se jedná o dárek. Pak se na to daň neuplatní. Jakmile se mi povede najít ustanovení/článek, tak jsem dám odkaz.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''> No ono je stále ještě otázkou, odkud to vůbec budou posílat. Protože sem někde viděl informace, že se budou snažit zásobovat Evropu z nějakého centra v Evropě. O tom dárku jsem taky slyšel, ale prej to taky není zaručený způsob. Celníci se do toho můžou podívat, a uvalit na to daň podle vlastního rozhodnutí (prej). Jinak ale je tu ještě možnost, že by nám to někdo dovezl. Nevíte jak to funguje v tom případě?<br />
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''Jan Mareš''>>To centrum v Evropě bylo v plánu avšak levněji jim to vyjde posílání z Ameriky, takže bude k dispozici jen jedno centrum v USA. Ohledně toho dárku jsem doposud četl, že jeho částka nesmí přesáhnout 55€, jinak je normálně proclíván. Při osobním převozu jsou nastaveny limity výše viz [http://www.celnisprava.cz/CmsGrc/Cestovani-a-nakupy/Jak-se-chovat/mimo-eu.htm celní správa].<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Kdyby vezl dva tři tak by možná ukecal že je to dárek ale dvacet... clo vem čert to bude nanejvýš 3,5% což není taková pálka. Spíš kdy se to DPH z toho platí ? Hned na celnici nebo musím podat něco jako daňové přiznání ?<br />
* No tak zatím jsem zjistil že nejspíš jediná šance jak se osvobodit od cla a DPH je že všeci sedem do letadla a zajedem si pro to. Limit je 6000kč na jednu osobu starší 15-ti let.<br />
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''Jan Mares''>>>> Clo se na tento druh zboží nevztahuje. Platí se pouze české DPH, který ti celníci vyměří z ''ceny zboží + doprava + clo'', pak ti v případě fyzické osoby zašlou na tvou poštu, kde uhradíš DPH jako dobírku. U podnikatele je to trošku jiné. VAT (čili americké DPH) na zboží nebude uvaleno, jelikož zboží je vyváženo z USA.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''> No a dá se tohle spočítat předem? Abysme mohli stanovit cenu?<br />
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''Michal Bořek''>> No dokud nebude jasne kolik bude stat postovne (typ + vaha) a jaky bude kurs dolaru, tak presna cena asi tezko.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''>>No co. Tak ti každý pošlem sedm tisíc s tím, že potom přebytky rozdělíš do obálek a budeš předávat s každým telefonem obálku. Jinak to asi dost dobře nepůjde. Jedině že by nám to sem dopravila česká pobočka FIC-u/foxconn. Ale to je podle mně nepravděpodobné.<br />
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''Michal Bořek''>>>JJ take myslim, ze bych dal predbeznou cenu 7K s tim, ze uz je poslem, at muzes pruzne zareagovat a ne pak cekat az vsichni poslou.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''>>>> Kdyby se zase Steve nebo někdo vyjádřil v jakém je to stavu a přidal předběžný odhad kdy se začne prodávat. Teďka je to těžko. Můžou ho vydat zítra ale taky třeba i za půl roku pokud se objeví nějaký složitý problém.<br />
Ještě k té předběžné ceně - dolar není za 15 korun ale za 16,1-16,2 korun I s DPH se do těch 7000 nespíš nevejdem. Jestli že se domluvíme žo začnem posílat peníze tak navrhuju posílat 7500. IMHO dolar už níž nepůjde.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Co jsem se zatím díval na možnosti přepravy (DHL,Fedex,UPS,USPS), tak nejvýhodněji vychází USPS ([http://www.usps.com/ usps.com]), kdy se pohybujeme kolem částky 120$ i s pojištěním (kdyby to bylo cca 10kg což pochybuji). Bohužel maximální pojištění činí 5 000$, přičemž celková částka balíku vychází na cca 7 580$ . U ostatních jsem ohledně pojištění nenašel zmínku, přičemž poštovné vycházelo většinou přes 500$. Z pohledu pojištění by bylo vhodné objednávky rozdělit. Ještě bude záležet jaké poštovní služby nabídnou v e-shopu. Včera u ČSOB byla prodejní cena dolaru na 16,44Kč/$ a musím bohužel souhlasit, že lepší to už nebude. Jinak ceník je k dispozici na této adrese [http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781 http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781] .<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''> Teď mně napadlo - co kdyby jsem někde založili učet (nejlépe spořící) v dolarech a poslali to tam teď ? [http://www.mesec.cz/clanky/ucet-v-cizi-mene-ano-ale-kde/] Kdyby tak člověk věděl že pozítru neoznámí prodej...<br />
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''Michal Bořek''>>>>> Tak urcite bych pockal s placenim na nejake jistejsi vyjadreni, ale necekal bych na otevreni kramu, tehdy uz by chtelo, aby se to dalo hned objednat, co se tyka uctu neverim, ze dolar spadne, ale ani ze poroste a tak bych to neresil.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Vzhledem k množství objednávaného zboží bych možná už využil dopravních společností, které za nás provedou celní odbavení. Aspoň metodický pokyny k vyplnění JSD (jednotný správní doklad) nejsou triviální a zabere to minimálně půlden. Ukázku dokumentu jsme nalezl zde: [http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/ http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/].<br />
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''Michal Bořek''>> Dole v tom dopisu z celního úřadu se píše: "který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost" to nikdo z nás má?<br />
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''Michal Bořek'' >> '''[http://www.trisoft.de/en_freerunner.htm Evropský Distributor]''', ale je celkem dražší.<br />
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''Radek Machulka'' > Což o to, [http://www.pulster.de/ tady] je o 50 euro levnější, ale nemyslím si, že to bude ve výsledku výhodnější.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''>>> Co jsem se díval do pokynů, tak to může vyplnit i fyzická osoba, jelikož každý způsobilý občan může provést obchodní činnost. Pouze nesmí být opakovaného rázu, tj. jednorázové obchody. Zkusím se tedy dotázat konkrétněji na tuto část. Ohledně toho evropského distributora nevím. Odhadem to vychází přes 1000 Kč dráž bez poštovného a bez bonusů. Jestliže se nám poradí vyřešit problém s celním úřadem, tak bych spíše volil objednávku z USA. Připadá mi, že tyhle obchody to jen objednají v USA, přijmou a přepošlou s přirážkou.<br />
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''Michal Bořek'' >>>> Take jsem pro USA, jen sem to nasel a ac ten od Radka Machulky je uz zajimavejsi tak verim, ze se dostanem i pod nej a jeste je tam ten obal a sluchatka.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''> Já jsem též pro USA. Ještě by bylo možné (teoreticky) zkusit si to objednat přes nějakého (mešího) obchodníka co bere věci od FIC-u<br />
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''Michal Bořek''> Tož sem [[GroupSales#Aktu.C3.A1ln.C4.9B|vyhlásil konkurz]] na koordinátora pražské větve a snad se najde někdo kdo je schopen se vejít do těch zásadních bodů co jsem tam nastínil.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Relativně požadavky splňuji. Mám studentský ČSOB účet mající limit na 1,5M, kartu Visa Classic, angličtinu zvládám na úrovni čtení technické dokumentace, bydlím na Barrandově a jabber též mám (ivir@jabbim.com). Jen tu důvěryhodnost nemám. :) S tím clem to bude ještě zajímavé, ale snad mi ohledně toho ještě poradí z celního úřadu. V nouzi mám k dispozici i OSVČ. :)<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Dle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017531.html příspěvku] bude dovoz zboží do USA zahájen někdy 1.června. K tomu je nutné připočítat min. týden až 3 než zboží dorazí do skladů. Z příspěvku teoreticky vyplývá, že bude i evropský HUB. Snad to bude za stejnou částku a s bonusy. :)<br />
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''Michal Bořek''>Podle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017607.html příspěvku] by měl webový shop odkazovat na us i eu a to vypadá čím dál nadějnějš co se týká poštovného aj cla.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' jestli to dobře překládám tak není jasné jakým způsobem to půjde z činy - jestli lodí nebo letadlem ?<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Ano, aspoň takto jsem to pochopil i já. Problémem je ta doba dodání. Jinak co se týká vyřízení JSD (cla), tak u zprostředkovatele [http://www.kama-eu.cz/ KAMA s.r.o.>, jež mi doporučil celní úřad, vychází na cca 1000 Kč viz ceník, což mi připadá přijatelné.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''> No mně ty informace od Steva přijdou vždycky nějaké zmatené. Nevědí jestli lodí nebo letadlem, ale odejít by to snad mělo až 1.6. (nebo co má znamenat to datum, v jeho zprávě), takže to ještě docela potrvá... :-(<br />
Jan Mareš: můžeš prosím popsat co přesně má být těch 1000Kč a jak se na to přijde? Já tomu pořád nějak nerozumím...<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''>> <font color="gray">best case is I would start to test phones around the first of june. Then<br />
pack and ship.<br />
</font>1.6. začíná testovat telefony a potm je balit a odesílat.<br><br />
<font color=gray>The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically you<br />
build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy% pass the test, and the factory says.<br />
"good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on the<br />
test software, because that bad phone really was good." arrg.</font> Ale toto nějak moc nechápu.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Vychází to takto: 250 Kč (vypracování JSD), 30 Kč (vypracování hodnoty), 250 Kč (jednani za deklaranta), 30 Kč (avízo) a pak asi ručení (350). Je to můj odhad a po konkrétním dotaze by měli sdělit částku. Asi tedy bude třeba připočítat poštovné (250 Kč). Zatím jsem jim napsal dotaz ohledně nepodnikající osoby s tímto množstvím, tak jsem zvědav kdy odpoví.<br />
Tu další část považuji za povzdychnutí, kdy jim vyrobili více telefonů z nichž jen část prošla a továrna chce tohle číslo minimalizovat a že dané chyby byly spíše SW povahy.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' Podle toho co píšeš bych řekl že by vyšlo levněj kdyby jsme brali všechny telefony dohromady.Jaké má výhody osamostatnění Prahy ?<br />
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''Michal Bořek'' No nedokazeme pojistit 30telefonu na jejich cenu pri doprave, ale jinak pokud by to clo vyrizovala firma asi by to bylo vyhodnejsi.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Trochu mě znepokojují zprávy v community e-mail archivu, kde uvádějí, že openmoko e-shop využívá služeb UPS. U nich by nebyl problém s pojištěním, ale ty ceny. Cena je de facto konstantní na cca 600$ (při 10kg balíčku), takže pak by bylo vhodné objednávku shrnout dohromady. Pak by to vycházelo o cca 10$ na hlavu více. Snažím se přesvědčit otce jako OSVČ, že by byla objednávka napsaná na něj a tím pádem by odpadl problém s využitím výše uvedené společnosti od nichž jsem dostal zamítavé stanovisko ohledně "neobchodní zásilky".<br />
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Pak už zbývá využít evropského distributora Pulster.de . Teoreticky mi vychází částka při dovozu z US na 7600 Kč a u Pulsteru na 7 660Kč bez poštovné. Avšak za předpokladu společné hromadné objednávky. V opačném případě je nutné připočíst u US objednávky cca tisícovku (při 10 lidech).<br />
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Zapomněl jsem tedy dodat, že zboží by bylo v republice za 4-5 dnů + pár dnů na vyřízení celního řízení.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''> veškeré spekulace jsou zatím velmi předběžné, protože ani sami prodejci ještě nemají jasno, za jakých podmínek budou FreeRunner prodávat. Každopádně Pulster se mi docela zamlouvá (viz níže), vypadá že s panem majitelem se dá rozumně domluvit. Asi mu řeknu že objednávám telefonů 40, aby byl kdyžtak ochoten větší slevy nebo nějakého zvýhodnění a nechám tu zásilku jenom rozdělit a poslat do Prahy a sobě... Ale jak říkám, pořád ještě je všechno předběžné, definitivně se rozhodne asi už během tohoto měsíce.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík''> Ještě jedna novinka: pan Christoph Pulster z pulster.de mně oznámil zahájení prodeje debug boardu za "lidovou" cenu 149€ což je docela rozdíl oproti 99$... Takže jak říkám, všechno jsou teď jenom teoretické úvahy jak objednávku zorganizovat. Ikdyž osobně dávám pulster.de naděje, myslím, že se na ceně jak debugboardu, tak telefonu, bude dát domluvit, stejně jako nulová cena za dopravu zní přijatelně :-)<br />
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''Pavel Kovář''> Pražáků je docela nešťastý počet. Jediné co mně napadá je pokusit se domluvit s Plusterem že by vzal 4 desítky z toho nám přeposlal těch 34 a zbytek by si nechal a prodal. A taky chci poděkovat Martinu Šenkeříkovi za to že se o nás tak stará.<br />
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''Jan Mareš''>Tak je otázkou jak vlastně Pulster bude fungovat. Jako evropský distributor by měl od openmoko odbržet třeba 500ks (na dluh), které pak prodává. Z tohoto pohledu je jedno jaký počet telefonů se objedná. Pochybuji, že ta distribuce je založena na tom, že mi mu zaplatíme a on to objedná z US skladu. Pak by se určitě lépe hodil nákup přímo z US, kdy skrze UPS by se vyřídily všechny formality s celním úřadem. Rozhodující je konečná cena u Pulsteru.<br />
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''Radek Machulka'' > Tak to vypada, ze si budeme moci vybrat: [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-June/019117.html list]<br />
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''Jan Mareš''> Žel s ohledem na co nejnižší cenu jsou oba distributori mimo hru, kdy se pohybujeme s cenou kolem 8 700Kč, což je hnedle o tisícikorunu více než při objednání z US. Doufejme, že Pulster nahodí lepší cenu.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' > To je mrzuté. Vypadá to, že se všichni distributoři rozhodli, že si na tom namastí kapsu a spoléhají na to, že nic podobného neexistuje a že je to novinka...<br />
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''Michal Bořek'' >> Podle té dvojnásobné ceny debug boardu se dá soudit, že nám nic jiného než US nezbude,tyhle EU distributoři jsou fakt jen zlatokopové.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Doufám že je amíci nezančou dorovnávat.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík'' > Jak jsem už několikrát psal, na jakékoliv spekulace je pořád brzo, situace se stále vyvíjí -> pulster dnes debugboard oficiálně slevnil na 99€. Takže ještě pořád není rozhodnuto. Prostě počkáme s čím kdo přijde (případně distributory trošku nakopnu sám :-)). "Amíci" je rozhodně dorovnávat nezačnou, když od "amíků" to ti Evropští distributoři objednávají ;-)<br />
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''Miloslav Machotka'' > K diskuzi o zvolení prodejce. Já jsem určitě pro Pulster. Cena je myslím dobrá a hlavně to ušetří Martinu Šenkeříkovi práci, které s náma má i tak dost. A pokud jsem to správně pochopil, řeší to i problém s počtem telefonů nedělitelným deseti. Všichni dostanou za svoje peníze totéž.<br />
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''František Horínek'' > Veľmi si vážim to, čo pre nás Martin Šenkeřík robí ale mam pocit, že 299€ je viac ako $399 a potom sa stráca akákoľvek zľava. Neviete niekto koľko by stála doprava z USA?<br />
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''Miloslav Machotka'' >> Podle dnešního kurzu to vychází následovně. 299€ = 7240 kč. 369$ = 5777kč * 1,19 DPH = 6875 kč. A to v tom nemáte dopravu a tu práci s vyřizováním. Nabídka Pulsteru mi přijde jako výhodná.<br />
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''Martin Šenkeřík'' >> Ok, myslel jsem že je to tu někde sepsané, ale radši to připomenu: 299€ (cca 7300Kč) je definitivní cena, to je cifra kterou dá každý z nás za telefon v případě objednávky od Pulstera. <br />
Naopak cena 369$ (cca 5830Kč) není ani zdaleka konečná. Připočítáme daň 19% a dostaneme se na cca 7000Kč. Stále ještě zbývá připočítat clo a poštovné (aspoň doufám, že jsem správně pochopil, co se podařilo zjistit ostatním). A to nepočítám pravděpodobné papírování a obíhání úřadů (ikdyž někdo myslím psal, že UPS to všechno řeší sama). Když už ne levněji, tak to vyjde minimálně na stejno... Kdyžtak mě doplňte/opravte, kdo se těmi cly zabýval hlouběji.<br />
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''Jan Mareš'' > Hezky shrnuto. UPS veškeré papírování ohledně DPH a cla řeší. Telefony spadají do 0% cla, takže se platí jen DPH, které je však vypočítávané i s dopravou, která je je celkem vysoká, aspoň při vypůjčení odhadů od Švýcarů, tj. 3kg za 10 telefonů, tak poštovné bude činit přes 10 000Kč. Takže to vychází nastejno či díky klesajícímu euru i výhodněji. Navíc plusem je 2letá záruka, naproti jednoleté z US.<br />
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''František Horínek'' >> Ďakujem za objasnenie na DPH som úplne zabudol. Máte pravdu je to výhodné<br />
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''Luboš Podrázský'' >> Zdravím, tak jsem taky pro Pulster.de. Cena vyjde víceméně nastejno, méně starostí pro organizátory, delší záruka a jestli se tím vyřeší i počet kusů nedělitelný 10-ti, tak asi neni co řešit.<br />
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''Michal Pěnka'' > Podle všech informací tady a na hlavní stránce groupsales se také přikláním k pulster. Dvouletá záruka není zanedbatelná. Už se těším :)<br />
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''Karel Volný'' > Pokud od Pulster dostaneme totéž, jako bychom dostali z USA, tak těch případných pár korun navíc klidně obětuju ve prospěch jednodušší organizace.<br />
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''Pavel Kovář'' > jestli jsem dobře pochopil zprávu na [[Community Updates]] tak by se 4.Července mělo začít prodávat. (...) Jak vůbec bude probíhat potenciální vyřizování reklamace ? Já teda doufám že při prvních kusech budou číňani odpočatí a budou dělat kvalitně, ale při mém štěstí úplně vidím jak to zapnu a ono to zasmrdí...<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Co se týče objednávky, já osobně bych počkal na zahájení prodeje, t.j. na dobu, kdy bude jasné kdo a za jakých podmínek bude FR prodávat. Je pochopitelné, že Pulster.de nemůže potvrdit konečnou cenu, protože si ji víceméně vycucal z prstu.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš'' > Pulster předobjednávky nebere, tady jde spíše o stanovení částky, kterou Martin bude vybírat, aby se vracely jen drobné. Jde o urychlení objednávky, aby na nás vyšli ty univerzální stylusy. :) Ještě je nutné připočíst cca 3 dny na převod peněz na jejich účet. Ohledně té reklamace, tak při tomto způsobu objednání je nutné reklamované zboží zaslat do Pulsteru, kde bude reklamace vyřizována. Šlo by to přímo u FICu, ale české zastoupení prochází převzetím, viz vyjádření níže. Co jsem doposud zachytil, tak všechny FR jsou před balením testovány na funkčnost, takže může dojít k poškození jedině při přepravě, což bychom měli zachytit při přebírání zboží v Brně. Dle dostupných fotek balení jsou FR bytelně baleni, takže ani toto by nemělo hrozit.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >> Jasně že dělají všecko proto aby byl počet reklamací co nejnižší, konec konců šetří tak peníze sami sobě, ale jsou věci které se dost dobře odzkoušet nedají. Naštěstí FR nemá žádné klouby nebo kryty které by se časem mohly rozpadnout takže mi snad vydrží aspoň 5 let. (...) není jedno jestli se vrací 5korun nebo pětistovka ?<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Já spíš tlumil to nadšení z pulster.de jako nejvýhodnějšího prodejce. Taky si nemyslím, že by nějaký prodejce byl potenciálně vhodnější z pohledu uplatňování případných reklamací.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >> Tak pluster láká dvouletou zárukou.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >> Jestli to s Plusterem bude fungovat tak, že pošlu 7500 (tj 300EUR) a dostanu za to FR tak, sice nerad, ale oželím i ten obal. Ono z USA to nejspíš stejně nevyjde o moc levněj. Jestli vůbec. Pokud vezmu 369USD s kurzem 16Kč a k tomu 19% DPH tak jmse rázem na sedmi tisících a to jsme ještě nezaplatili poštovné, na které se to DPH taky vzathuje, + přpadné poplatky za bůhví co.<br />
Já jsem pro pluster.<br />
<br />
''Vojtěch Vozáb'' >> Asi bych taky byl pro pulster, protože dokud napevno neurčí cenu tak objednávka není závazná (opravte mě jestli se pletu), takže kdyby nějak zásadně zdražil, může se přinejhorším objednávka zrušit a objednat z Ameriky. Hlavně by bylo dobré vyřešit to rychle, pro mě je poslední termín kdy můžu zaplatit ve čtvrtek 26. června a pak až 4. července, mezi tím jsem pryč. To by sice mohlo stačit, protože prodej imho stejně dříve než 4. nezačne, ale bylo by samozřejmě lepší mít jistotu a shromáždit peníze v předstihu.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík'' > S Vojtou jsme to pořešili. A teď abysme zabili nějaký čas, než dorazí telefony k distributorům, bych se vás chtěl zeptat, jestli vám stačí, když číslo účtu pak pošlu mailem, hodím na svůj server a napíšu na wiki? Jestli se to někomu zdá málo bezpečné, navrhněte prosím lepší způsob.<br />
<br />
''František Horínek'' > Ja si osobne myslím, že mail podpísaný pgp-čkom určite nič nepokazíte. Tiež by nebolo zle hodiť to na osobný server z SSL a rozdistribuovať fingerprint certifikátu. Možno ešte spraviť SHA a/alebo MD5 sumy čísla účtu/IP adresy servera. Hashe a fingerprinty rozosielať iba mejlom. Možno spraviť IRC server na ktorý sa bude dať dostať iba cez VPN/SSH z overovaním kľúča. Samotná komunikácia môže prebiehať v nejakej klasickej šifre napr. Vernamova šifra, ktorá je doteraz považovaná bez klúča za neprelomitelnú. Ale to už je moc veľa paranoje, či nie? :-)<br />
<br />
''František Horínek'' > teraz ma napadlo, že by sa dali použiť slová z mejlov, keď ste si kontrolovali naše adresy z distribučnej siete, na prístup na v osobný server, Server by sa potom autentifikoval inou časťou mejlu, potom by sa zobrazilo číslo účtu. Tieto texty by potencionálny útočník nemal ako získať.<br />
<br />
Napr 1-3 slovo z prvého odstavca mejlu<br />
<br />
ssh/https: zadajte 1-3 slovo z 1 odstavca mejlu<br />
zadám: "Dnes bylo oficialne"<br />
odpove: 4-5 slovo 1 odstavec "potvrzeno zahajeni"; čislo účtu je 123456789<br />
<br />
tým pádom získam informáciu ktorá je adresovaná len pre oúzky kruh ľudí a ja viem, že tá informácia nie je podvodná.<br />
<br />
Len preto, že som paranoidný neznamená, že ma nesledujú. Idú po mne. :-D<br />
<br />
'' Martin Šenkeřík '' > Uf... No problém je jeden, právě mně dorazil email z Pulster s exkluzivní nabídkou: dorazila mu první zásilka telefonů, obchod ještě neotevírá, ale nám už to nabízí ke koupi. Tzn. můžeme začít vybírat peníze, cenu 299€ potvrdil. Bližší info zveřejním za chvíli. A já už takovou ověřovací aplikaci nestihnu implementovat. Můžeme ještě využít jabber ohin@jabbim.cz - někteří lidé se mnou už komunikovali, takže potvrdí že za ním jsem opravdu já. A můžu pro největší paranoiky odpovědět libovolné otázky. Příp. mám v profilu vyplněn i telefon na sebe.<br />
<br />
=== Doplňující informace ===<br />
* '''Vyjádření Pulster.de na objednávku většího množství telefonů:'''<br />
Hello,<br />
<br />
on OpenMoko wiki they announced: "Every 10 pack, will come with<br />
a box of stuff. 10 pouches and 10 head sets." Will this offer<br />
also be available in your shop? Some discount and bonus gadgets?<br />
I already want to order 20-30 phones to Czech Republic, so I am<br />
trying to find the best way, how to order this amount. Either<br />
from USA or from EU.<br />
<br />
Thank you, Martin Senkerik<br />
<br />
Hello,<br />
<br />
thanks a lot for asking. Right now we dont have Freerunner in<br />
stock, so no idea about earphones/pouches, sorry.<br />
I am happy to provide Czech users with OpenMokos. No customs,<br />
no paperwork, I have a lot CZ customers.<br />
Allow me to put you on the info list once it is avalaible and you<br />
get clear infos about all. We can work out free shipping and <br />
maybe some goodies.<br />
<br />
<br />
heres the standard info text:<br />
<br />
The new modell is called "Freerunner" (version GTA02).<br />
It will be available end of June 2008. We try to aim 300-350 EUR<br />
sales price.<br />
Once it's ready to ship, you willfind it in our shop.<br />
We do not make pre-orders of items we dont have in hands,<br />
so please understand. Once the Freerunner is in stock, ready to<br />
ship, we will send you a one-time info mail (we do not send<br />
you any spam, dont worry).<br />
<br />
Of course we are happy you bookmark us and come back to check<br />
for the nice Freerunner. Please find a small datasheet here:<br />
http://www.pulster.de/info/pdas/openmoko/freerunner-flyer.pdf<br />
<br />
<br />
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,<br />
Christoph Pulster<br />
<br />
* '''Moje komunikace s pobočkou FIC v ČR:'''<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
Taiwanský FIC v nejbližších dnech začne s prodejem mobilního telefonu<br />
Neo FreeRunner (www.openmoko.com). Chci se zeptat, jestli bude možné případné<br />
reklamace a opravy řešit u vás?<br />
<br />
Zatím není známý přesný způsob distribuce tohoto telefonu pro Evropu<br />
a Českou republiku. Nebude vaše pobočka zapojena do distribuční sítě?<br />
<br />
Děkuji za odpověď, Martin Šenkeřík<br />
Odpověď:<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
FIC CZ s.r.o. v těchto měsících přechází pod Foxconn CZ.<br />
V případě reklamace či informací se obracejte přímo na FIC TW.<br />
Kontaktní osobou na Zákaznickém oddělení je<br />
<br />
Mr. James Chang<br />
Customer Service Department<br />
Te.: +886 2 8751 8751 ext.6196<br />
James_chang@fic.com.tw<br />
<br />
S pozdravem<br />
<br />
Jarka Ripplova<br />
<br />
* '''Dotaz na celní úřad ohledně zpracování zásilky:'''<br />
Věc: Informace<br />
<br />
K Vaší žádosti o informaci týkající se hromadného dovozu zásilky pro osobní<br />
potřebu více příjemců Vám sdělujeme:<br />
<br />
Za zásilku zboží neobchodní povahy se ve smyslu celních předpisů považují<br />
zásilky, které jsou dováženy příležitostně a které obsahují výhradně zboží<br />
určené k osobnímu užití příjemců nebo jejich rodin, přičemž toto zboží nesmí<br />
povahou ani množstvím svědčit o obchodním úmyslu dovozce. Z uvedeného<br />
vyplývá, že tzv. sběrná zásilka nemůže být považována za zásilku zboží<br />
neobchodní povahy, i když obsah je určen pro osobní potřebu soukromých osob.<br />
Při dovozu zásilky obchodní povahy je zásilka zadržena při vstupu na celní<br />
území EU a příjemce vyzván k předložení celního prohlášení. Celní formality<br />
uskutečňuje příjemce, který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost.<br />
<br />
Pro zboží zařazené v některé z podpoložek čísla 8517 je celním sazebníkem EU<br />
stanovena sazba cla 0 %. Při dovozu zásilky zboží obchodního charakteru<br />
celní orgány posuzují, zda zboží nepodléhá zvláštnímu řízení podle zákona č.<br />
38/1994 Sb., o zahraničním obchodu s vojenským materiálem. Vedle cla se při<br />
propuštění dovezeného zboží do volného oběhu v tuzemsku vyměřuje DPH v<br />
základní sazbě 19 %. Základem pro vyměření DPH je cena, za kterou bylo zboží<br />
prodáno do EU, ke které se přičtou náklady na dopravu zásilky do EU, podle<br />
příslušných ustanovení zákona o DPH.<br />
<br />
Celní dluh, jehož součástí je i DPH, se vyměří v českých korunách z celní<br />
hodnoty převedené na české koruny v kurzu platném pro příslušné období.<br />
Aktuální kurzy měn jsou uveřejněny na stránkách Celní správy České republiky<br />
www.cs.mfcr.cz cestou Servis - Kurzovní lístky.<br />
<br />
== To open Colombia groupsales ==<br />
<br />
I wan to open the Colombia-Bogotá group sales.<br />
I want Neo advanced, no matter if the rest of the people wants the other.<br />
my mail: arawaco@ieee.org<br />
Ideas are welcome<br />
<br />
== USA ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#San_Francisco_Bay_Area San Francisco Bay Area] ===<br />
If everyone agrees [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm I] will pick up and pay for the 10 units from Fremont.<br />
Payment Options...<br />
* Bring cash to the arranged meetup to get the device. (I can arrange to meet up with individuals if needed)<br />
* We need to pay CA tax so keep that in mind, I'll try to get the exact price prior to pickup<br />
* Make sure you have confirmed with me your intention to buy the unit, the priority order will be the order that the list is currently in, any unconfirmed member of the group will be slipped to the bottom of the list on the day the units are available<br />
<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/dufflebunk dufflebunk]<br />
I'm all alone in the second group. I guess if anyone from the first group has to drop out I'll be happy to take their place. I would prefer cash (or cheque), Paypal sucks. <br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/krid krid said: ]<br />
I'm in for cash, just tell me where to show up. However, unless Steve says it'll be massively boring, I'd like to go to Fremont and see the facility. I'll be out of town at OSCON the last week of July, so hopefully we'll be able to do this before then. If not, I'll make arrangements with Jim.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm Jim said: ]<br />
I'll let everyone know when I'm going to Fremont to pick them up (Sounds like the first week in July), so anyone who wants to tag along is welcome and we can distribute them then and there.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Cry_Regarder Cry Regarder] At the time I moved myself from separate monterey to san francisco, there were 8 folks listed. That was 27 May. Jim Lutz wasn't in the list yet. Accordingly, I moved one of mine from the post 10 to above and swapped Jim Lutz down.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Xeromist Kelley said: ]<br />
That's fine Jim. I didn't ask to be given any special treatment and I want everything to remain fair. If we are able to form 2 full groups are you willing to buy for both or will we need to select a distributor for group 2 as well?<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm Jim said: ]<br />
I suspect we will need a second coordinator for the second group, $4k is a lot to fork out at one time, $8k is out of the question for me! However right now I think we can get everyone who has replied a unit from the first 10, unless one of the non-repliers contacts me before we pick up we won't need a second group.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Cry_Regarder Cry Regarder] I emailed "Steve" at openmoko and he said that they are working on the logistics for bulk buys of fractional case lots for quantities over 10. I don't know if they'll sort it out before they arrive though. Another possibility is to join in with LA...they'll probably appreciate having them picked up.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Discuss any other ideas here.</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Group_salesTalk:Group sales2008-06-20T19:08:38Z<p>Mivaho: /* The Netherlands */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
== England ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}<br />
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?<br />
<br />
:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.<br />
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
::Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====<br />
<br />
I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?<br />
<br />
I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?<br />
<br />
In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(<br />
<br />
:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] - [mailto:stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk let me know] if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
<br />
Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)<br />
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.<br />
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but<br />
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}<br />
<br />
<br />
Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php<br />
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen<br />
<br />
Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van <br />
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd <br />
zou willen zien worden.<br />
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie <br />
over het te leveren artikel.<br />
<br />
Uw naam J. de Haan<br />
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
Artikelinformatie<br />
Merk openmoko<br />
Naam freerunner<br />
Website openmoko.com<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen <br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor <br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail <br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
E-mailcontact - verzonden<br />
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.<br />
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)<br />
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not<br />
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out <br />
on Utrecht CS :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)<br />
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? <br /><br />
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1." <br />
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.<br />
<br />
{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will have 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Belgium Belgium]. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.<br />
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:<br />
<br />
Geachte heer,<br />
<br />
Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
<br />
Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx<br />
Product Management / Technical Support<br />
<br />
Salland Automatisering<br />
<br />
Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post. <br /><br />
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.<br />
from Jan de Haan <haan.j.de@gmail.com><br />
to inkoop@azerty.nl,<br />
date Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM<br />
subject Openmoko - Freerunner<br />
mailed-by gmail.com<br />
<br />
hide details 8:52 PM (0 minutes ago)<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen<br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor<br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
Een importeur schijnt trisoft.de te zijn. Let wel: dit product is<br />
nog niet op de markt,<br />
al zijn de laatste test productie runs klaar.<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail<br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken. <br /><br />
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):<br />
<br />
=== Votes for a reseller ===<br />
{|border=1<br />
!Name<br />
!Trisoft<br />
!Open Source Nieuws Nederland<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (Subject to a solution for warranty)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[Special:Emailuser/User:PWerken|Peter van de Werken]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (note: I'll buy 2 Freerunners)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (If warranty is OK)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|'''Total'''<br />
|<br />
|10<br />
|}<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:<br />
Beste Yorick,<br />
<br />
Bedankt voor je mail en informatie; ik kende de toestellen niet, maar zou ze<br />
best eens van dichtbij willen bekijken. Het 'developer' model lijkt me dan<br />
echter weer minder interessant voor ons; het 'consumer' model zou eind 2008<br />
op de markt moeten komen?<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
With kind regards,<br />
<br />
Michael Brus<br />
Manager PDAshop<br />
<br />
<br />
Coolblue<br />
Molenbaan 11 . 2908 LL Capelle a/d IJssel . www.coolblue.nl<br />
<br />
Coolblue is...<br />
MP3shop.nl . PDAshop.nl . Digicamshop.nl . GPSshop.nl .<br />
Smartphoneshop.nl . Consoleshop.nl . Telefoonshop.nl . meer...<br />
<br />
Should I forward this to Michael Shiloh?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 07/05} I'll vote to wait until there are actually phones shipping, until that time, the more people we gather here, and maybe other dealers, the better the deal we get(I hope).<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 08/05} <br />
Well, I want to have the phone as soon as possible. The best deal ever isn't my main concern.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 13/05}<br />
I've been browsing the mailing list, and found [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/016971.html this post] from Openmoko's Steve. Group sales have 28 days of DOA (Dead On Arrival) coverage, and single sales have 14 days of DOA coverage. Which I think is reasonable. BTW, I don't think there will be a better deal than the $369 per phone for the 10-pack. <br /><br />
We currently have enough people to fill 2 10-packs, which is awesome! <br /><br />
What we do need to figure out are the import costs, and the shipping costs. (it's shipped via UPS, if I recall correctly from the mailing list.)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 22/05}<br />
<br />
I wouldn't be too sure that this is financially going to be the best deal. This message in the community mailing list (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017668.html) shows interesting info regarding Pulster.<br />
----<br />
''Christph Pulster wrote:<br />
''> about 10 pack orders - we try to be cheaper than the 10-order-<br />
''> pack-price ! so no need to collect ten local buyers.<br />
<br />
''This sounds so good...! I'm waiting for official news (and maybe infos<br />
about the gifts too)...''<br />
----<br />
'''I checked their webpage and they advertise with OpenMoko Freerunner 299 eur'''<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 22/05} I checked their website too and it says 'Sobald der Freerunner wirklich lieferbar ist, ist er an dieser Stelle mit konkretem Preis zu finden und real bestellbar.' Which could mean that the price will be something other than 299 euro.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I like the pulster deal a lot, even if they are the same price as buying the 10 pack in the US the warranty part is a lot better seeing Germany is next door to us. Only thing is that you would mis out on the pouch and headset, dunno if that's such a great loss. And they say they will be going under the price of the US 10 pack order if you order the 10 from them. So maybe a vote on yes or no to the pouch/headset deal? Maybe we should check if with Pulster a group order of 10+ will always give the discount. Like 22 will get the same discount and that we are not forced in getting groups of ten people.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I wrote an e-mail to pulster with the questions so I will post the answer here when I get one.<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 24/05} <br />
The pouch and headset are not that important IMO. I guess most join the group sale for convenience and reduce cost. But maybe I'm wrong.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
<br />
'''From the community mailing list again:<br />
<br />
'''Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote [to Pulster - Ed.]:<br />
''>> 1. Do you know when you'll be approximately able to define a price?<br />
''>> 2. The Freerunner will be shipped with extra goodies (generally<br />
''>> given only to people buying a 10-pack (ie: pouch and headset)?<br />
''> <br />
<br />
'''From Pulster [Ed.]<br />
<br />
''> Price fix ASAP I have the units in own hands/stocks.<br />
''> 299-319 eur is really realistic.<br />
''> <br />
''> All goodies included at PULSTER !<br />
''> <br />
''> Also can be bought a lot accessories extra very soon (debug board, pens, <br />
''> cases etc)<br />
''> <br />
''> you see, I will make all your wishes true :)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/05} Yeah, read that message in the weekend, no reply to my mail at this moment but seeing this message straight from pulster I would say that we should buy directly from pulster as a group. Warranty wise it's better as well.<br />
<br />
399 U.S. dollars is about 253 Euros and including VAT that would become 301.07 Euro so pulster with their price being 299 Euro (see below) has a good price and for 10 and more there is a discount just like in the US. I would propose to take the dutch group sale to Pulster.<br />
<br />
The following mail from Chis Pulster was on the list also.<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
I am Chris from pulster.eu - my hello to this great community.<br />
<br />
May I add some points from my side:<br />
<br />
- Freerunner - ready to order ASAP it is available. We do not<br />
take pre-orders of items we dont have in hands. For a one-time info- <br />
mail once the Freerunner is ready to order, please just email me <br />
mailto: christoph@pulster.de<br />
- we aim a Freerunner price tag of 299 EUR incl. VAT<br />
- shipping worldwide with DHL, Europa 15 EUR, World 30 EUR postage<br />
- soon we offer accessories for Freerunner like spare batterie, charger, <br />
Headset, pouch and also the debug-board<br />
- group-sales make local communities, that is wonderful. I am happy to <br />
sell Freerunner separately or in packages.<br />
<br />
Many thanks,<br />
Chris<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
Indeed let's take the dutch group sale to Pulster. We are with 22 so we should be able to make a good deal regarding the goodies. And in that way no-one has to take any financial risk.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 28/05} My guess is, that for a group buy at pulster there is still one entity needed for buying the devices. The thing is that with pulster, as with the US deal, the waranty should be per person and not named for the buying entity.<br />
<br />
:I don't think that we need to do the 'group buy' at Pulster. You can just buy the device at 299 a piece there. I would like to have the pouch though, if they can assure me that the pouch and other goodies would be included in the deal (because they of course could make a number of 'groupbuys' for the entire customer base), then count me in.--[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
:: Your absolutly right on this one, been thinking about it and the possible discount we would be getting would wasted on shipping within the Netherlands again. Like you said, if there are goodies involved it's a different deal of course :) . --[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
:::So let's start negotiating with Pulster regarding the goodies. We can bring in 22 customers, so he has something to win. It might be important to know whether Pulster takes credit card payments. I cannot find that option on their webpage and an electronic banktransfer will add another 15 (?) euro.[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
<br />
:::: Bank payments to germany are free of charge, at least for my bank (Rabobank).{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]]}<br />
<br />
:::: I'm afraid they don't accept credit cards (from their [http://www.pulster.de/engl/imprint.htm About Us page]:<br />
<br />
We do not accept any other payment option like PayPal, Reembourse/Cash-on-delivery (COD) payments, <br />
direct CreditCard payments, any kind of cheques, western union, postal money orders, cash. Please dont <br />
ask, we do not accept none of this options thanks to a very few but very expensive scams. <br />
<br />
:::: Nice double negative in there, btw. But still, 299+15 is less than 350 or 400. ;) --[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
::::: If it is going to be a group sale (if pulster provides the goodies) it would be (discounted price * 22 + transfer rate + (21 * shipping within Holland)) [[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
:::::: Are you assuming that we'd get a discounted price when we order in bulk? I have not seen any evidence that Pulster will lower the price even more, when done like that. But indeed, we'd have 22 * whatever-price-the-freerunner-will-get-at-Pulster + shipping costs... but then we are back at the discussion of how to deal with the warranty. Will Pulster give separate invoices for each of the phones in the pack? --[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 02/06} Okay I got an answer from Chris Pulster. I had 2 main questions that he answered and they were 1. Will the pouch and other goodies be included with a group sale as would be if we were to buy in the states. 2. Is a group sale, like in the states, limited to groups of ten or will the discount be for all phones bought in bulk. This is what he had to say:<br />
<br />
about your question: at the moment we dont know about pouch/headsets <br />
included or not. I will tell you a more reliable answer if Freerunners <br />
are in stocks.<br />
my discount system and sales are full flexibel (no ten-pack limitations)<br />
let us talk and we find a nice offer for the dutch OpenMoko community !<br />
<br />
<br />
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,<br />
Christoph Pulster<br />
<br />
We will have to take a look at what the discount will be and if it is worth it considering we will have extra shipping cost in holland.<br />
<br />
If the shipping costs will be too high, i would be willing to pick the phones up myself, if my expenses are covered. We have to figure out further distribution though. {[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 03/06}<br />
<br />
{[[User:Atilla|Atilla Filiz]] 19/06} Don't we have a chance for direct shipping from Taiwan? The phones are produced there anyway.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 20/06} We could but the problem would be that we would be buying it for consumer prices where Pulster buys a whole lot, and being a reseller pays a reseller price, or better yet a distributors price. So my bet is that we would be better of getting it from pulster than from Taiwan because that would not be much cheaper then getting it from the States.<br />
<br />
== Canada ==<br />
==== GTA (Toronto) ====<br />
{ --[[User:Argo|Argo]] 03:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC) }<br />
For group 1 it looks like they have actually gotten the 10 orders in? or am I them adding up wrong?<br />
<br />
== Croatia ==<br />
{--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 14:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)} '''ja ne bih da već sada radimo pan-balkansku grupu, iskreno sam iznenađen odazivom do sada, pa jedino možda ako ne skupimo dovoljno ljudi do kraja ovog tjedna...'''<br />
<br />
moj post sa hr.comp.os.linux upućen mnalisu;<br />
<br />
> BTW, ti si zapravo kontaktirao HULK i rekli su ti da bi to oni isli raditi i<br />
<br />
> gnjaviti se sa svim tim, ili ih cisto spominjes onako u smislu "pa oni su<br />
<br />
> dragi ljudi, sigurno ce besplatno uloziti mjesece svog zivota u to u zamjenu<br />
<br />
> za pivu" ?<br />
<br />
Davio sam ih malo zadnja dva dana na IRCu, i prema logu načelno su za<br />
da se narudžbe hendlaju preko njih. A i mislim da se ipak ne radi o<br />
mjesecima života bačenih za pivu, more like možda 2-3 sata za gajbu<br />
ili dvije :), hell ako je toliko teško napravit ću ja sve, učlanit se<br />
u HULK ako treba<br />
<br />
ali do toga trenutka ovako ja razmišljam:<br />
<br />
1.) skupimo 10 zainteresiranih<br />
2.) ja nazovem carinu i agenciju za telekomunikacije<br />
3.) pitamo openmoko za shipping estimate<br />
4.) ako su svi i dalje za, skupljanje sredstava i na kraju narudžba<br />
<br />
dakle ništa nije obligatory, idemo step by step, onog trenutka kada se<br />
prijavi 10 ljudi na wikiju ja zovem nadležne službe, pa ćemo vidit di<br />
stojimo sa uvozom i tim''<br />
<br />
nemoj odmah "worst case scenario" :)<br />
<br />
>> mozda da se malo na elitesecurity.org pokrene rasprava?<br />
<br />
--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 10:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC) svakako, ja sam za<br />
<br />
== Czech Republic ==<br />
Distribuční seznam, základní informace naleznete v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Czech_Republic GroupSales]<br />
<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Diskuze Diskuze]<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Dopl.C5.88uj.C3.ADc.C3.AD_informace Doplňující informace]<br />
<br />
=== Diskuze ===<br />
''Martin Holec''> Máme tu 4x ze Zlína, co kdyby někdo jel do Brna pro 4ks a ve Zlíně by se rozdělili?<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> jak jsem psal, já do Zlína jezdívám, a od května do září budu ve Zlíně velmi často, takže se Zlínem není vůbec problém.<br />
<br />
Jinak už se objevily nějaké termíny. Jestli jsem to dobře pochopil, tak 9.5. by už mohla začít masová výroba a brzy na to by měl začít prodej...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak by měl vlastně vypadat? Takový ten bíly se mně moc nelíbí. Radši bych měl [http://http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:FIC-neo1973_small.jpg černý].<br />
<br />
''Michal Pěnka''> Protože jsem jedenáctý a nevím, jestli bude možné objednat 11 kusů nebo jen po desítkách, domluvím se s Tomem Vargou později (jestli by byl ochotný pro převoz do Prahy), každopádně bych také raději ten černý.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak to tak tady pročítám tak to půjde objednat za zvýhodněnou cenu (+pytlík? a headset) opravdu jenom po desítkách. Ale IMHO když této stránce zvedneme popularitu (případně přiberem Slováky) tak jich budem nakonec brát minimálně dvacet ;) Mně osobně připadá datum 9.5. hodně optimistické.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> FreeRunner bude pouze v jedné barevné variantě, a to černý. To datum 9.5. mám [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates odsud]<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>Nemáte někdo fotku freerunnera ? na wiki jsem zatím našel jenom fotky GTA1-čky<br />
<br />
''David Kozub''>> Jelikoz se vyskytuju ve Zline i v Praze, muzu zajistit prevoz do Prahy.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No tak například tady to máš dokonce na videu: http://youtube.com/watch?v=k9QLdK6pFCI ;-) Ale jinak i na wiki se povalují fotky FreeRunnera. Například hned ta první na hlavní stránce ;-)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> To video je parádní. Co se týče té fotky z úvodu wiki, myslel jsem, že je to jenom render. Jinak jak jsem tak bloudil po stránkách české pošty - nejlevněj to nejspíš vyjde poslat jako profibalík za myslím že 64korun. Za dobírku se něco ještě připlácí. Balík je pojištěný do 100 000. [http://www.cpost.cz:80/jetspeed/portal/media-type/html/user/anon/page/default.psml/js_pane/sluzbyonline%2Czasilky?docid=370&calc_lb0=10424&calc_cb0=1 více zde]<br />
<br />
ad. '''Praha (Čechy):'''<br />
<br />
''Tom Varga''>> Pokoušel jsem se vyčíst z mailing listu, jak je to s tou množstevní slevou - co jsem z toho pochopil, tak by neměl být problém objednat množství nedělitené desíti, ale ty kusy navíc jsou pak [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016432.html bez slevy] a [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016202.html bez bonusu]; pořád by se to ale vyplatilo skrze poštovné. Prozatím bych navrhl, aby se zájemci z Prahy (Čech) zapsali / potvrdili smazáním otazníku v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu], možná něco podobného pro Slovensko - momentálně to vypadá, že bude snazší sehnat 20 zájemců celkem a taky by se tím mohla situace trochu vyjasnit. Osobně jsem schopen zajistit dovoz z Brna do Prahy, Liberce, Jablonce n.N. a přilehlých končin. Případné návrhy sem ;)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>> Řekl bych že čím větší balík poletí za Ameriky sem tím levněj to vyjde. Pokud není poštovné na gramy. 20-ti zájemců se určitě dočkáme. Když počítám Františka Horínka z Bratislavy tak je nás 18. Co se týče bonusů na headsetu moc nelpím ale ten pytel by se mně vážně hodil. Často v kapse kombinuju mobil a klíče nebo šroubovák...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>> Poštovné samozřejmě není na gramy, ale na libry, neboli každých započatých 0.45 kg se platí, plus se poštovné započítává do cla, mimochodem taková zásilka asi jen tak přes celnici neprojde, takže je možné, že nikdo (příjemce) bude muset dodat na celnici případné dokumenty dokladující hodnotu zasílaného zboží.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>> Tak dle "platného" celního sazebníku by se clo nemělo platit. Viz [http://disk.jabbim.cz/ivir@jabbim.com/celni_sazebnik.pdf Sazebník] strana 568. Tedy by se hradilo pouze DPH. Aspoň si myslím, že 20 telefonů jako "dárek" asi neprojde.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>>> No tím lépe, ale tak já to beztak myslel jako celý celní dluh a to dph je právě i z poštovného.<br />
<br />
''Miloslav Machotka''> Koukám že jsem trochu zaspal dění. :) V [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu] jsem se připsal k Praze. Mám to nejblíž, jsem z Vlašimi, ale jinak jsem pro to schopen dojet i do Brna. Jsem pro to aby se to vyřešilo, pokud možno, po desítkách a pak to rozvést (rozeslat) po Čechách a Slovensku. Bonusy se asi většině lidí hodí.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>>>>> DPH musíme taky platit ?? To je mrzuté. Kolik mají DPH slováci ? nevyšlo by to levněj poslat do Bratislavy a stama ''"propašovat"'' k nám ? Když už máme ten šengen... Nevrátí nám třeba amíci DPH které za to zaplatili u nich ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>>>>> Co je mi známo, tak při obchodování mimo zemi se DPH neúčtuje a účtuje se až v cílové zemi. Dle rok starého článku na měšci je základní sazba stejná, tj. 19%. Od DPH by to šlo odprostit pouze pokud by na tom balíku bylo napsáno, že se jedná o dárek. Pak se na to daň neuplatní. Jakmile se mi povede najít ustanovení/článek, tak jsem dám odkaz.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No ono je stále ještě otázkou, odkud to vůbec budou posílat. Protože sem někde viděl informace, že se budou snažit zásobovat Evropu z nějakého centra v Evropě. O tom dárku jsem taky slyšel, ale prej to taky není zaručený způsob. Celníci se do toho můžou podívat, a uvalit na to daň podle vlastního rozhodnutí (prej). Jinak ale je tu ještě možnost, že by nám to někdo dovezl. Nevíte jak to funguje v tom případě?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>To centrum v Evropě bylo v plánu avšak levněji jim to vyjde posílání z Ameriky, takže bude k dispozici jen jedno centrum v USA. Ohledně toho dárku jsem doposud četl, že jeho částka nesmí přesáhnout 55€, jinak je normálně proclíván. Při osobním převozu jsou nastaveny limity výše viz [http://www.celnisprava.cz/CmsGrc/Cestovani-a-nakupy/Jak-se-chovat/mimo-eu.htm celní správa].<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Kdyby vezl dva tři tak by možná ukecal že je to dárek ale dvacet... clo vem čert to bude nanejvýš 3,5% což není taková pálka. Spíš kdy se to DPH z toho platí ? Hned na celnici nebo musím podat něco jako daňové přiznání ?<br />
* No tak zatím jsem zjistil že nejspíš jediná šance jak se osvobodit od cla a DPH je že všeci sedem do letadla a zajedem si pro to. Limit je 6000kč na jednu osobu starší 15-ti let.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mares''>>>> Clo se na tento druh zboží nevztahuje. Platí se pouze české DPH, který ti celníci vyměří z ''ceny zboží + doprava + clo'', pak ti v případě fyzické osoby zašlou na tvou poštu, kde uhradíš DPH jako dobírku. U podnikatele je to trošku jiné. VAT (čili americké DPH) na zboží nebude uvaleno, jelikož zboží je vyváženo z USA.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No a dá se tohle spočítat předem? Abysme mohli stanovit cenu?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> No dokud nebude jasne kolik bude stat postovne (typ + vaha) a jaky bude kurs dolaru, tak presna cena asi tezko.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>No co. Tak ti každý pošlem sedm tisíc s tím, že potom přebytky rozdělíš do obálek a budeš předávat s každým telefonem obálku. Jinak to asi dost dobře nepůjde. Jedině že by nám to sem dopravila česká pobočka FIC-u/foxconn. Ale to je podle mně nepravděpodobné.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>JJ take myslim, ze bych dal predbeznou cenu 7K s tim, ze uz je poslem, at muzes pruzne zareagovat a ne pak cekat az vsichni poslou.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>> Kdyby se zase Steve nebo někdo vyjádřil v jakém je to stavu a přidal předběžný odhad kdy se začne prodávat. Teďka je to těžko. Můžou ho vydat zítra ale taky třeba i za půl roku pokud se objeví nějaký složitý problém.<br />
Ještě k té předběžné ceně - dolar není za 15 korun ale za 16,1-16,2 korun I s DPH se do těch 7000 nespíš nevejdem. Jestli že se domluvíme žo začnem posílat peníze tak navrhuju posílat 7500. IMHO dolar už níž nepůjde.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Co jsem se zatím díval na možnosti přepravy (DHL,Fedex,UPS,USPS), tak nejvýhodněji vychází USPS ([http://www.usps.com/ usps.com]), kdy se pohybujeme kolem částky 120$ i s pojištěním (kdyby to bylo cca 10kg což pochybuji). Bohužel maximální pojištění činí 5 000$, přičemž celková částka balíku vychází na cca 7 580$ . U ostatních jsem ohledně pojištění nenašel zmínku, přičemž poštovné vycházelo většinou přes 500$. Z pohledu pojištění by bylo vhodné objednávky rozdělit. Ještě bude záležet jaké poštovní služby nabídnou v e-shopu. Včera u ČSOB byla prodejní cena dolaru na 16,44Kč/$ a musím bohužel souhlasit, že lepší to už nebude. Jinak ceník je k dispozici na této adrese [http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781 http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781] .<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Teď mně napadlo - co kdyby jsem někde založili učet (nejlépe spořící) v dolarech a poslali to tam teď ? [http://www.mesec.cz/clanky/ucet-v-cizi-mene-ano-ale-kde/] Kdyby tak člověk věděl že pozítru neoznámí prodej...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>> Tak urcite bych pockal s placenim na nejake jistejsi vyjadreni, ale necekal bych na otevreni kramu, tehdy uz by chtelo, aby se to dalo hned objednat, co se tyka uctu neverim, ze dolar spadne, ale ani ze poroste a tak bych to neresil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vzhledem k množství objednávaného zboží bych možná už využil dopravních společností, které za nás provedou celní odbavení. Aspoň metodický pokyny k vyplnění JSD (jednotný správní doklad) nejsou triviální a zabere to minimálně půlden. Ukázku dokumentu jsme nalezl zde: [http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/ http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/].<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> Dole v tom dopisu z celního úřadu se píše: "který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost" to nikdo z nás má?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >> '''[http://www.trisoft.de/en_freerunner.htm Evropský Distributor]''', ale je celkem dražší.<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Což o to, [http://www.pulster.de/ tady] je o 50 euro levnější, ale nemyslím si, že to bude ve výsledku výhodnější.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>> Co jsem se díval do pokynů, tak to může vyplnit i fyzická osoba, jelikož každý způsobilý občan může provést obchodní činnost. Pouze nesmí být opakovaného rázu, tj. jednorázové obchody. Zkusím se tedy dotázat konkrétněji na tuto část. Ohledně toho evropského distributora nevím. Odhadem to vychází přes 1000 Kč dráž bez poštovného a bez bonusů. Jestliže se nám poradí vyřešit problém s celním úřadem, tak bych spíše volil objednávku z USA. Připadá mi, že tyhle obchody to jen objednají v USA, přijmou a přepošlou s přirážkou.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >>>> Take jsem pro USA, jen sem to nasel a ac ten od Radka Machulky je uz zajimavejsi tak verim, ze se dostanem i pod nej a jeste je tam ten obal a sluchatka.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Já jsem též pro USA. Ještě by bylo možné (teoreticky) zkusit si to objednat přes nějakého (mešího) obchodníka co bere věci od FIC-u<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''> Tož sem [[GroupSales#Aktu.C3.A1ln.C4.9B|vyhlásil konkurz]] na koordinátora pražské větve a snad se najde někdo kdo je schopen se vejít do těch zásadních bodů co jsem tam nastínil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Relativně požadavky splňuji. Mám studentský ČSOB účet mající limit na 1,5M, kartu Visa Classic, angličtinu zvládám na úrovni čtení technické dokumentace, bydlím na Barrandově a jabber též mám (ivir@jabbim.com). Jen tu důvěryhodnost nemám. :) S tím clem to bude ještě zajímavé, ale snad mi ohledně toho ještě poradí z celního úřadu. V nouzi mám k dispozici i OSVČ. :)<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Dle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017531.html příspěvku] bude dovoz zboží do USA zahájen někdy 1.června. K tomu je nutné připočítat min. týden až 3 než zboží dorazí do skladů. Z příspěvku teoreticky vyplývá, že bude i evropský HUB. Snad to bude za stejnou částku a s bonusy. :)<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>Podle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017607.html příspěvku] by měl webový shop odkazovat na us i eu a to vypadá čím dál nadějnějš co se týká poštovného aj cla.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' jestli to dobře překládám tak není jasné jakým způsobem to půjde z činy - jestli lodí nebo letadlem ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Ano, aspoň takto jsem to pochopil i já. Problémem je ta doba dodání. Jinak co se týká vyřízení JSD (cla), tak u zprostředkovatele [http://www.kama-eu.cz/ KAMA s.r.o.>, jež mi doporučil celní úřad, vychází na cca 1000 Kč viz ceník, což mi připadá přijatelné.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No mně ty informace od Steva přijdou vždycky nějaké zmatené. Nevědí jestli lodí nebo letadlem, ale odejít by to snad mělo až 1.6. (nebo co má znamenat to datum, v jeho zprávě), takže to ještě docela potrvá... :-(<br />
Jan Mareš: můžeš prosím popsat co přesně má být těch 1000Kč a jak se na to přijde? Já tomu pořád nějak nerozumím...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> <font color="gray">best case is I would start to test phones around the first of june. Then<br />
pack and ship.<br />
</font>1.6. začíná testovat telefony a potm je balit a odesílat.<br><br />
<font color=gray>The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically you<br />
build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy% pass the test, and the factory says.<br />
"good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on the<br />
test software, because that bad phone really was good." arrg.</font> Ale toto nějak moc nechápu.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vychází to takto: 250 Kč (vypracování JSD), 30 Kč (vypracování hodnoty), 250 Kč (jednani za deklaranta), 30 Kč (avízo) a pak asi ručení (350). Je to můj odhad a po konkrétním dotaze by měli sdělit částku. Asi tedy bude třeba připočítat poštovné (250 Kč). Zatím jsem jim napsal dotaz ohledně nepodnikající osoby s tímto množstvím, tak jsem zvědav kdy odpoví.<br />
Tu další část považuji za povzdychnutí, kdy jim vyrobili více telefonů z nichž jen část prošla a továrna chce tohle číslo minimalizovat a že dané chyby byly spíše SW povahy.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' Podle toho co píšeš bych řekl že by vyšlo levněj kdyby jsme brali všechny telefony dohromady.Jaké má výhody osamostatnění Prahy ?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' No nedokazeme pojistit 30telefonu na jejich cenu pri doprave, ale jinak pokud by to clo vyrizovala firma asi by to bylo vyhodnejsi.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Trochu mě znepokojují zprávy v community e-mail archivu, kde uvádějí, že openmoko e-shop využívá služeb UPS. U nich by nebyl problém s pojištěním, ale ty ceny. Cena je de facto konstantní na cca 600$ (při 10kg balíčku), takže pak by bylo vhodné objednávku shrnout dohromady. Pak by to vycházelo o cca 10$ na hlavu více. Snažím se přesvědčit otce jako OSVČ, že by byla objednávka napsaná na něj a tím pádem by odpadl problém s využitím výše uvedené společnosti od nichž jsem dostal zamítavé stanovisko ohledně "neobchodní zásilky".<br />
<br />
Pak už zbývá využít evropského distributora Pulster.de . Teoreticky mi vychází částka při dovozu z US na 7600 Kč a u Pulsteru na 7 660Kč bez poštovné. Avšak za předpokladu společné hromadné objednávky. V opačném případě je nutné připočíst u US objednávky cca tisícovku (při 10 lidech).<br />
<br />
Zapomněl jsem tedy dodat, že zboží by bylo v republice za 4-5 dnů + pár dnů na vyřízení celního řízení.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> veškeré spekulace jsou zatím velmi předběžné, protože ani sami prodejci ještě nemají jasno, za jakých podmínek budou FreeRunner prodávat. Každopádně Pulster se mi docela zamlouvá (viz níže), vypadá že s panem majitelem se dá rozumně domluvit. Asi mu řeknu že objednávám telefonů 40, aby byl kdyžtak ochoten větší slevy nebo nějakého zvýhodnění a nechám tu zásilku jenom rozdělit a poslat do Prahy a sobě... Ale jak říkám, pořád ještě je všechno předběžné, definitivně se rozhodne asi už během tohoto měsíce.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> Ještě jedna novinka: pan Christoph Pulster z pulster.de mně oznámil zahájení prodeje debug boardu za "lidovou" cenu 149€ což je docela rozdíl oproti 99$... Takže jak říkám, všechno jsou teď jenom teoretické úvahy jak objednávku zorganizovat. Ikdyž osobně dávám pulster.de naděje, myslím, že se na ceně jak debugboardu, tak telefonu, bude dát domluvit, stejně jako nulová cena za dopravu zní přijatelně :-)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Pražáků je docela nešťastý počet. Jediné co mně napadá je pokusit se domluvit s Plusterem že by vzal 4 desítky z toho nám přeposlal těch 34 a zbytek by si nechal a prodal. A taky chci poděkovat Martinu Šenkeříkovi za to že se o nás tak stará.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>Tak je otázkou jak vlastně Pulster bude fungovat. Jako evropský distributor by měl od openmoko odbržet třeba 500ks (na dluh), které pak prodává. Z tohoto pohledu je jedno jaký počet telefonů se objedná. Pochybuji, že ta distribuce je založena na tom, že mi mu zaplatíme a on to objedná z US skladu. Pak by se určitě lépe hodil nákup přímo z US, kdy skrze UPS by se vyřídily všechny formality s celním úřadem. Rozhodující je konečná cena u Pulsteru.<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Tak to vypada, ze si budeme moci vybrat: [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-June/019117.html list]<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Žel s ohledem na co nejnižší cenu jsou oba distributori mimo hru, kdy se pohybujeme s cenou kolem 8 700Kč, což je hnedle o tisícikorunu více než při objednání z US. Doufejme, že Pulster nahodí lepší cenu.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' > To je mrzuté. Vypadá to, že se všichni distributoři rozhodli, že si na tom namastí kapsu a spoléhají na to, že nic podobného neexistuje a že je to novinka...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >> Podle té dvojnásobné ceny debug boardu se dá soudit, že nám nic jiného než US nezbude,tyhle EU distributoři jsou fakt jen zlatokopové.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Doufám že je amíci nezančou dorovnávat.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík'' > Jak jsem už několikrát psal, na jakékoliv spekulace je pořád brzo, situace se stále vyvíjí -> pulster dnes debugboard oficiálně slevnil na 99€. Takže ještě pořád není rozhodnuto. Prostě počkáme s čím kdo přijde (případně distributory trošku nakopnu sám :-)). "Amíci" je rozhodně dorovnávat nezačnou, když od "amíků" to ti Evropští distributoři objednávají ;-)<br />
<br />
''Miloslav Machotka'' > K diskuzi o zvolení prodejce. Já jsem určitě pro Pulster. Cena je myslím dobrá a hlavně to ušetří Martinu Šenkeříkovi práci, které s náma má i tak dost. A pokud jsem to správně pochopil, řeší to i problém s počtem telefonů nedělitelným deseti. Všichni dostanou za svoje peníze totéž.<br />
<br />
''František Horínek'' > Veľmi si vážim to, čo pre nás Martin Šenkeřík robí ale mam pocit, že 299€ je viac ako $399 a potom sa stráca akákoľvek zľava. Neviete niekto koľko by stála doprava z USA?<br />
<br />
''Miloslav Machotka'' >> Podle dnešního kurzu to vychází následovně. 299€ = 7240 kč. 369$ = 5777kč * 1,19 DPH = 6875 kč. A to v tom nemáte dopravu a tu práci s vyřizováním. Nabídka Pulsteru mi přijde jako výhodná.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík'' >> Ok, myslel jsem že je to tu někde sepsané, ale radši to připomenu: 299€ (cca 7300Kč) je definitivní cena, to je cifra kterou dá každý z nás za telefon v případě objednávky od Pulstera. <br />
Naopak cena 369$ (cca 5830Kč) není ani zdaleka konečná. Připočítáme daň 19% a dostaneme se na cca 7000Kč. Stále ještě zbývá připočítat clo a poštovné (aspoň doufám, že jsem správně pochopil, co se podařilo zjistit ostatním). A to nepočítám pravděpodobné papírování a obíhání úřadů (ikdyž někdo myslím psal, že UPS to všechno řeší sama). Když už ne levněji, tak to vyjde minimálně na stejno... Kdyžtak mě doplňte/opravte, kdo se těmi cly zabýval hlouběji.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš'' > Hezky shrnuto. UPS veškeré papírování ohledně DPH a cla řeší. Telefony spadají do 0% cla, takže se platí jen DPH, které je však vypočítávané i s dopravou, která je je celkem vysoká, aspoň při vypůjčení odhadů od Švýcarů, tj. 3kg za 10 telefonů, tak poštovné bude činit přes 10 000Kč. Takže to vychází nastejno či díky klesajícímu euru i výhodněji. Navíc plusem je 2letá záruka, naproti jednoleté z US.<br />
<br />
''František Horínek'' >> Ďakujem za objasnenie na DPH som úplne zabudol. Máte pravdu je to výhodné<br />
<br />
''Luboš Podrázský'' >> Zdravím, tak jsem taky pro Pulster.de. Cena vyjde víceméně nastejno, méně starostí pro organizátory, delší záruka a jestli se tím vyřeší i počet kusů nedělitelný 10-ti, tak asi neni co řešit.<br />
<br />
''Michal Pěnka'' > Podle všech informací tady a na hlavní stránce groupsales se také přikláním k pulster. Dvouletá záruka není zanedbatelná. Už se těším :)<br />
<br />
''Karel Volný'' > Pokud od Pulster dostaneme totéž, jako bychom dostali z USA, tak těch případných pár korun navíc klidně obětuju ve prospěch jednodušší organizace.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' > jestli jsem dobře pochopil zprávu na [[Community Updates]] tak by se 4.Července mělo začít prodávat. (...) Jak vůbec bude probíhat potenciální vyřizování reklamace ? Já teda doufám že při prvních kusech budou číňani odpočatí a budou dělat kvalitně, ale při mém štěstí úplně vidím jak to zapnu a ono to zasmrdí...<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Co se týče objednávky, já osobně bych počkal na zahájení prodeje, t.j. na dobu, kdy bude jasné kdo a za jakých podmínek bude FR prodávat. Je pochopitelné, že Pulster.de nemůže potvrdit konečnou cenu, protože si ji víceméně vycucal z prstu.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš'' > Pulster předobjednávky nebere, tady jde spíše o stanovení částky, kterou Martin bude vybírat, aby se vracely jen drobné. Jde o urychlení objednávky, aby na nás vyšli ty univerzální stylusy. :) Ještě je nutné připočíst cca 3 dny na převod peněz na jejich účet. Ohledně té reklamace, tak při tomto způsobu objednání je nutné reklamované zboží zaslat do Pulsteru, kde bude reklamace vyřizována. Šlo by to přímo u FICu, ale české zastoupení prochází převzetím, viz vyjádření níže. Co jsem doposud zachytil, tak všechny FR jsou před balením testovány na funkčnost, takže může dojít k poškození jedině při přepravě, což bychom měli zachytit při přebírání zboží v Brně. Dle dostupných fotek balení jsou FR bytelně baleni, takže ani toto by nemělo hrozit.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >> Jasně že dělají všecko proto aby byl počet reklamací co nejnižší, konec konců šetří tak peníze sami sobě, ale jsou věci které se dost dobře odzkoušet nedají. Naštěstí FR nemá žádné klouby nebo kryty které by se časem mohly rozpadnout takže mi snad vydrží aspoň 5 let. (...) není jedno jsetli se vrací 5korun nebo pětistovka ?<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Já spíš tlumil to nadšení z pulster.de jako nejvýhodnějšího prodejce. Taky si nemyslím, že by nějaký prodejce byl potenciálně vhodnější z pohledu uplatňování případných reklamací.<br />
<br />
=== Doplňující informace ===<br />
* '''Vyjádření Pulster.de na objednávku většího množství telefonů:'''<br />
Hello,<br />
<br />
on OpenMoko wiki they announced: "Every 10 pack, will come with<br />
a box of stuff. 10 pouches and 10 head sets." Will this offer<br />
also be available in your shop? Some discount and bonus gadgets?<br />
I already want to order 20-30 phones to Czech Republic, so I am<br />
trying to find the best way, how to order this amount. Either<br />
from USA or from EU.<br />
<br />
Thank you, Martin Senkerik<br />
<br />
Hello,<br />
<br />
thanks a lot for asking. Right now we dont have Freerunner in<br />
stock, so no idea about earphones/pouches, sorry.<br />
I am happy to provide Czech users with OpenMokos. No customs,<br />
no paperwork, I have a lot CZ customers.<br />
Allow me to put you on the info list once it is avalaible and you<br />
get clear infos about all. We can work out free shipping and <br />
maybe some goodies.<br />
<br />
<br />
heres the standard info text:<br />
<br />
The new modell is called "Freerunner" (version GTA02).<br />
It will be available end of June 2008. We try to aim 300-350 EUR<br />
sales price.<br />
Once it's ready to ship, you willfind it in our shop.<br />
We do not make pre-orders of items we dont have in hands,<br />
so please understand. Once the Freerunner is in stock, ready to<br />
ship, we will send you a one-time info mail (we do not send<br />
you any spam, dont worry).<br />
<br />
Of course we are happy you bookmark us and come back to check<br />
for the nice Freerunner. Please find a small datasheet here:<br />
http://www.pulster.de/info/pdas/openmoko/freerunner-flyer.pdf<br />
<br />
<br />
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,<br />
Christoph Pulster<br />
<br />
* '''Moje komunikace s pobočkou FIC v ČR:'''<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
Taiwanský FIC v nejbližších dnech začne s prodejem mobilního telefonu<br />
Neo FreeRunner (www.openmoko.com). Chci se zeptat, jestli bude možné případné<br />
reklamace a opravy řešit u vás?<br />
<br />
Zatím není známý přesný způsob distribuce tohoto telefonu pro Evropu<br />
a Českou republiku. Nebude vaše pobočka zapojena do distribuční sítě?<br />
<br />
Děkuji za odpověď, Martin Šenkeřík<br />
Odpověď:<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
FIC CZ s.r.o. v těchto měsících přechází pod Foxconn CZ.<br />
V případě reklamace či informací se obracejte přímo na FIC TW.<br />
Kontaktní osobou na Zákaznickém oddělení je<br />
<br />
Mr. James Chang<br />
Customer Service Department<br />
Te.: +886 2 8751 8751 ext.6196<br />
James_chang@fic.com.tw<br />
<br />
S pozdravem<br />
<br />
Jarka Ripplova<br />
<br />
* '''Dotaz na celní úřad ohledně zpracování zásilky:'''<br />
Věc: Informace<br />
<br />
K Vaší žádosti o informaci týkající se hromadného dovozu zásilky pro osobní<br />
potřebu více příjemců Vám sdělujeme:<br />
<br />
Za zásilku zboží neobchodní povahy se ve smyslu celních předpisů považují<br />
zásilky, které jsou dováženy příležitostně a které obsahují výhradně zboží<br />
určené k osobnímu užití příjemců nebo jejich rodin, přičemž toto zboží nesmí<br />
povahou ani množstvím svědčit o obchodním úmyslu dovozce. Z uvedeného<br />
vyplývá, že tzv. sběrná zásilka nemůže být považována za zásilku zboží<br />
neobchodní povahy, i když obsah je určen pro osobní potřebu soukromých osob.<br />
Při dovozu zásilky obchodní povahy je zásilka zadržena při vstupu na celní<br />
území EU a příjemce vyzván k předložení celního prohlášení. Celní formality<br />
uskutečňuje příjemce, který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost.<br />
<br />
Pro zboží zařazené v některé z podpoložek čísla 8517 je celním sazebníkem EU<br />
stanovena sazba cla 0 %. Při dovozu zásilky zboží obchodního charakteru<br />
celní orgány posuzují, zda zboží nepodléhá zvláštnímu řízení podle zákona č.<br />
38/1994 Sb., o zahraničním obchodu s vojenským materiálem. Vedle cla se při<br />
propuštění dovezeného zboží do volného oběhu v tuzemsku vyměřuje DPH v<br />
základní sazbě 19 %. Základem pro vyměření DPH je cena, za kterou bylo zboží<br />
prodáno do EU, ke které se přičtou náklady na dopravu zásilky do EU, podle<br />
příslušných ustanovení zákona o DPH.<br />
<br />
Celní dluh, jehož součástí je i DPH, se vyměří v českých korunách z celní<br />
hodnoty převedené na české koruny v kurzu platném pro příslušné období.<br />
Aktuální kurzy měn jsou uveřejněny na stránkách Celní správy České republiky<br />
www.cs.mfcr.cz cestou Servis - Kurzovní lístky.<br />
<br />
== To open Colombia groupsales ==<br />
<br />
I wan to open the Colombia-Bogotá group sales.<br />
I want Neo advanced, no matter if the rest of the people wants the other.<br />
my mail: arawaco@ieee.org<br />
Ideas are welcome<br />
<br />
== USA ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#San_Francisco_Bay_Area San Francisco Bay Area] ===<br />
If everyone agrees [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm I] will pick up and pay for the 10 units from Fremont.<br />
Payment Options...<br />
* Bring cash to the arranged meetup to get the device. (I can arrange to meet up with individuals if needed)<br />
* We need to pay CA tax so keep that in mind, I'll try to get the exact price prior to pickup<br />
* Make sure you have confirmed with me your intention to buy the unit, the priority order will be the order that the list is currently in, any unconfirmed member of the group will be slipped to the bottom of the list on the day the units are available<br />
<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/dufflebunk dufflebunk]<br />
I'm all alone in the second group. I guess if anyone from the first group has to drop out I'll be happy to take their place. I would prefer cash (or cheque), Paypal sucks. <br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/krid krid said: ]<br />
I'm in for cash, just tell me where to show up. However, unless Steve says it'll be massively boring, I'd like to go to Fremont and see the facility. I'll be out of town at OSCON the last week of July, so hopefully we'll be able to do this before then. If not, I'll make arrangements with Jim.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm Jim said: ]<br />
I'll let everyone know when I'm going to Fremont to pick them up (Sounds like the first week in July), so anyone who wants to tag along is welcome and we can distribute them then and there.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Cry_Regarder Cry Regarder] At the time I moved myself from separate monterey to san francisco, there were 8 folks listed. That was 27 May. Jim Lutz wasn't in the list yet. Accordingly, I moved one of mine from the post 10 to above and swapped Jim Lutz down.<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Xeromist Kelley said: ]<br />
That's fine Jim. I didn't ask to be given any special treatment and I want everything to remain fair. If we are able to form 2 full groups are you willing to buy for both or will we need to select a distributor for group 2 as well?<br />
<br />
[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/wolfmanjm Jim said: ]<br />
I suspect we will need a second coordinator for the second group, $4k is a lot to fork out at one time, $8k is out of the question for me! However right now I think we can get everyone who has replied a unit from the first 10, unless one of the non-repliers contacts me before we pick up we won't need a second group.<br />
<br />
<br />
Discuss any other ideas here.</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Group_salesTalk:Group sales2008-06-02T19:00:41Z<p>Mivaho: /* The Netherlands */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
== England ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}<br />
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?<br />
<br />
:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.<br />
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
::Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====<br />
<br />
I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?<br />
<br />
I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?<br />
<br />
In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(<br />
<br />
:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] - [mailto:stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk let me know] if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
<br />
Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)<br />
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.<br />
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but<br />
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}<br />
<br />
<br />
Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php<br />
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen<br />
<br />
Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van <br />
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd <br />
zou willen zien worden.<br />
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie <br />
over het te leveren artikel.<br />
<br />
Uw naam J. de Haan<br />
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
Artikelinformatie<br />
Merk openmoko<br />
Naam freerunner<br />
Website openmoko.com<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen <br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor <br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail <br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
E-mailcontact - verzonden<br />
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.<br />
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)<br />
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not<br />
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out <br />
on Utrecht CS :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)<br />
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? <br /><br />
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1." <br />
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.<br />
<br />
{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will have 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Belgium Belgium]. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.<br />
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:<br />
<br />
Geachte heer,<br />
<br />
Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
<br />
Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx<br />
Product Management / Technical Support<br />
<br />
Salland Automatisering<br />
<br />
Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post. <br /><br />
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.<br />
from Jan de Haan <haan.j.de@gmail.com><br />
to inkoop@azerty.nl,<br />
date Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM<br />
subject Openmoko - Freerunner<br />
mailed-by gmail.com<br />
<br />
hide details 8:52 PM (0 minutes ago)<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen<br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor<br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
Een importeur schijnt trisoft.de te zijn. Let wel: dit product is<br />
nog niet op de markt,<br />
al zijn de laatste test productie runs klaar.<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail<br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken. <br /><br />
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):<br />
<br />
=== Votes for a reseller ===<br />
{|border=1<br />
!Name<br />
!Trisoft<br />
!Open Source Nieuws Nederland<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (Subject to a solution for warranty)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[Special:Emailuser/User:PWerken|Peter van de Werken]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (note: I'll buy 2 Freerunners)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (If warranty is OK)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|'''Total'''<br />
|<br />
|10<br />
|}<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:<br />
Beste Yorick,<br />
<br />
Bedankt voor je mail en informatie; ik kende de toestellen niet, maar zou ze<br />
best eens van dichtbij willen bekijken. Het 'developer' model lijkt me dan<br />
echter weer minder interessant voor ons; het 'consumer' model zou eind 2008<br />
op de markt moeten komen?<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
With kind regards,<br />
<br />
Michael Brus<br />
Manager PDAshop<br />
<br />
<br />
Coolblue<br />
Molenbaan 11 . 2908 LL Capelle a/d IJssel . www.coolblue.nl<br />
<br />
Coolblue is...<br />
MP3shop.nl . PDAshop.nl . Digicamshop.nl . GPSshop.nl .<br />
Smartphoneshop.nl . Consoleshop.nl . Telefoonshop.nl . meer...<br />
<br />
Should I forward this to Michael Shiloh?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 07/05} I'll vote to wait until there are actually phones shipping, until that time, the more people we gather here, and maybe other dealers, the better the deal we get(I hope).<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 08/05} <br />
Well, I want to have the phone as soon as possible. The best deal ever isn't my main concern.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 13/05}<br />
I've been browsing the mailing list, and found [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/016971.html this post] from Openmoko's Steve. Group sales have 28 days of DOA (Dead On Arrival) coverage, and single sales have 14 days of DOA coverage. Which I think is reasonable. BTW, I don't think there will be a better deal than the $369 per phone for the 10-pack. <br /><br />
We currently have enough people to fill 2 10-packs, which is awesome! <br /><br />
What we do need to figure out are the import costs, and the shipping costs. (it's shipped via UPS, if I recall correctly from the mailing list.)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 22/05}<br />
<br />
I wouldn't be too sure that this is financially going to be the best deal. This message in the community mailing list (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017668.html) shows interesting info regarding Pulster.<br />
----<br />
''Christph Pulster wrote:<br />
''> about 10 pack orders - we try to be cheaper than the 10-order-<br />
''> pack-price ! so no need to collect ten local buyers.<br />
<br />
''This sounds so good...! I'm waiting for official news (and maybe infos<br />
about the gifts too)...''<br />
----<br />
'''I checked their webpage and they advertise with OpenMoko Freerunner 299 eur'''<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 22/05} I checked their website too and it says 'Sobald der Freerunner wirklich lieferbar ist, ist er an dieser Stelle mit konkretem Preis zu finden und real bestellbar.' Which could mean that the price will be something other than 299 euro.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I like the pulster deal a lot, even if they are the same price as buying the 10 pack in the US the warranty part is a lot better seeing Germany is next door to us. Only thing is that you would mis out on the pouch and headset, dunno if that's such a great loss. And they say they will be going under the price of the US 10 pack order if you order the 10 from them. So maybe a vote on yes or no to the pouch/headset deal? Maybe we should check if with Pulster a group order of 10+ will always give the discount. Like 22 will get the same discount and that we are not forced in getting groups of ten people.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I wrote an e-mail to pulster with the questions so I will post the answer here when I get one.<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 24/05} <br />
The pouch and headset are not that important IMO. I guess most join the group sale for convenience and reduce cost. But maybe I'm wrong.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
<br />
'''From the community mailing list again:<br />
<br />
'''Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote [to Pulster - Ed.]:<br />
''>> 1. Do you know when you'll be approximately able to define a price?<br />
''>> 2. The Freerunner will be shipped with extra goodies (generally<br />
''>> given only to people buying a 10-pack (ie: pouch and headset)?<br />
''> <br />
<br />
'''From Pulster [Ed.]<br />
<br />
''> Price fix ASAP I have the units in own hands/stocks.<br />
''> 299-319 eur is really realistic.<br />
''> <br />
''> All goodies included at PULSTER !<br />
''> <br />
''> Also can be bought a lot accessories extra very soon (debug board, pens, <br />
''> cases etc)<br />
''> <br />
''> you see, I will make all your wishes true :)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/05} Yeah, read that message in the weekend, no reply to my mail at this moment but seeing this message straight from pulster I would say that we should buy directly from pulster as a group. Warranty wise it's better as well.<br />
<br />
399 U.S. dollars is about 253 Euros and including VAT that would become 301.07 Euro so pulster with their price being 299 Euro (see below) has a good price and for 10 and more there is a discount just like in the US. I would propose to take the dutch group sale to Pulster.<br />
<br />
The following mail from Chis Pulster was on the list also.<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
I am Chris from pulster.eu - my hello to this great community.<br />
<br />
May I add some points from my side:<br />
<br />
- Freerunner - ready to order ASAP it is available. We do not<br />
take pre-orders of items we dont have in hands. For a one-time info- <br />
mail once the Freerunner is ready to order, please just email me <br />
mailto: christoph@pulster.de<br />
- we aim a Freerunner price tag of 299 EUR incl. VAT<br />
- shipping worldwide with DHL, Europa 15 EUR, World 30 EUR postage<br />
- soon we offer accessories for Freerunner like spare batterie, charger, <br />
Headset, pouch and also the debug-board<br />
- group-sales make local communities, that is wonderful. I am happy to <br />
sell Freerunner separately or in packages.<br />
<br />
Many thanks,<br />
Chris<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
Indeed let's take the dutch group sale to Pulster. We are with 22 so we should be able to make a good deal regarding the goodies. And in that way no-one has to take any financial risk.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 28/05} My guess is, that for a group buy at pulster there is still one entity needed for buying the devices. The thing is that with pulster, as with the US deal, the waranty should be per person and not named for the buying entity.<br />
<br />
:I don't think that we need to do the 'group buy' at Pulster. You can just buy the device at 299 a piece there. I would like to have the pouch though, if they can assure me that the pouch and other goodies would be included in the deal (because they of course could make a number of 'groupbuys' for the entire customer base), then count me in.--[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
:: Your absolutly right on this one, been thinking about it and the possible discount we would be getting would wasted on shipping within the Netherlands again. Like you said, if there are goodies involved it's a different deal of course :) . --[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
:::So let's start negotiating with Pulster regarding the goodies. We can bring in 22 customers, so he has something to win. It might be important to know whether Pulster takes credit card payments. I cannot find that option on their webpage and an electronic banktransfer will add another 15 (?) euro.[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
<br />
:::: I'm afraid they don't accept credit cards (from their [http://www.pulster.de/engl/imprint.htm About Us page]:<br />
<br />
We do not accept any other payment option like PayPal, Reembourse/Cash-on-delivery (COD) payments, <br />
direct CreditCard payments, any kind of cheques, western union, postal money orders, cash. Please dont <br />
ask, we do not accept none of this options thanks to a very few but very expensive scams. <br />
<br />
:::: Nice double negative in there, btw. But still, 299+15 is less than 350 or 400. ;) --[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
::::: If it is going to be a group sale (if pulster provides the goodies) it would be (discounted price * 22 + transfer rate + (21 * shipping within Holland)) [[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
:::::: Are you assuming that we'd get a discounted price when we order in bulk? I have not seen any evidence that Pulster will lower the price even more, when done like that. But indeed, we'd have 22 * whatever-price-the-freerunner-will-get-at-Pulster + shipping costs... but then we are back at the discussion of how to deal with the warranty. Will Pulster give separate invoices for each of the phones in the pack? --[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 02/06} Okay I got an answer from Chris Pulster. I had 2 main questions that he answered and they were 1. Will the pouch and other goodies be included with a group sale as would be if we were to buy in the states. 2. Is a group sale, like in the states, limited to groups of ten or will the discount be for all phones bought in bulk. This is what he had to say:<br />
<br />
about your question: at the moment we dont know about pouch/headsets <br />
included or not. I will tell you a more reliable answer if Freerunners <br />
are in stocks.<br />
my discount system and sales are full flexibel (no ten-pack limitations)<br />
let us talk and we find a nice offer for the dutch OpenMoko community !<br />
<br />
<br />
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,<br />
Christoph Pulster<br />
<br />
We will have to take a look at what the discount will be and if it is worth it considering we will have extra shipping cost in holland.<br />
<br />
== Canada ==<br />
==== GTA (Toronto) ====<br />
{ --[[User:Argo|Argo]] 03:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC) }<br />
For group 1 it looks like they have actually gotten the 10 orders in? or am I them adding up wrong?<br />
<br />
== Croatia ==<br />
{--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 14:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)} '''ja ne bih da već sada radimo pan-balkansku grupu, iskreno sam iznenađen odazivom do sada, pa jedino možda ako ne skupimo dovoljno ljudi do kraja ovog tjedna...'''<br />
<br />
moj post sa hr.comp.os.linux upućen mnalisu;<br />
<br />
> BTW, ti si zapravo kontaktirao HULK i rekli su ti da bi to oni isli raditi i<br />
<br />
> gnjaviti se sa svim tim, ili ih cisto spominjes onako u smislu "pa oni su<br />
<br />
> dragi ljudi, sigurno ce besplatno uloziti mjesece svog zivota u to u zamjenu<br />
<br />
> za pivu" ?<br />
<br />
Davio sam ih malo zadnja dva dana na IRCu, i prema logu načelno su za<br />
da se narudžbe hendlaju preko njih. A i mislim da se ipak ne radi o<br />
mjesecima života bačenih za pivu, more like možda 2-3 sata za gajbu<br />
ili dvije :), hell ako je toliko teško napravit ću ja sve, učlanit se<br />
u HULK ako treba<br />
<br />
ali do toga trenutka ovako ja razmišljam:<br />
<br />
1.) skupimo 10 zainteresiranih<br />
2.) ja nazovem carinu i agenciju za telekomunikacije<br />
3.) pitamo openmoko za shipping estimate<br />
4.) ako su svi i dalje za, skupljanje sredstava i na kraju narudžba<br />
<br />
dakle ništa nije obligatory, idemo step by step, onog trenutka kada se<br />
prijavi 10 ljudi na wikiju ja zovem nadležne službe, pa ćemo vidit di<br />
stojimo sa uvozom i tim''<br />
<br />
nemoj odmah "worst case scenario" :)<br />
<br />
>> mozda da se malo na elitesecurity.org pokrene rasprava?<br />
<br />
--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 10:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC) svakako, ja sam za<br />
<br />
== Czech Republic ==<br />
Distribuční seznam, základní informace naleznete v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Czech_Republic GroupSales]<br />
<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Diskuze Diskuze]<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Dopl.C5.88uj.C3.ADc.C3.AD_informace Doplňující informace]<br />
<br />
=== Diskuze ===<br />
''Martin Holec''> Máme tu 4x ze Zlína, co kdyby někdo jel do Brna pro 4ks a ve Zlíně by se rozdělili?<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> jak jsem psal, já do Zlína jezdívám, a od května do září budu ve Zlíně velmi často, takže se Zlínem není vůbec problém.<br />
<br />
Jinak už se objevily nějaké termíny. Jestli jsem to dobře pochopil, tak 9.5. by už mohla začít masová výroba a brzy na to by měl začít prodej...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak by měl vlastně vypadat? Takový ten bíly se mně moc nelíbí. Radši bych měl [http://http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:FIC-neo1973_small.jpg černý].<br />
<br />
''Michal Pěnka''> Protože jsem jedenáctý a nevím, jestli bude možné objednat 11 kusů nebo jen po desítkách, domluvím se s Tomem Vargou později (jestli by byl ochotný pro převoz do Prahy), každopádně bych také raději ten černý.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak to tak tady pročítám tak to půjde objednat za zvýhodněnou cenu (+pytlík? a headset) opravdu jenom po desítkách. Ale IMHO když této stránce zvedneme popularitu (případně přiberem Slováky) tak jich budem nakonec brát minimálně dvacet ;) Mně osobně připadá datum 9.5. hodně optimistické.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> FreeRunner bude pouze v jedné barevné variantě, a to černý. To datum 9.5. mám [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates odsud]<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>Nemáte někdo fotku freerunnera ? na wiki jsem zatím našel jenom fotky GTA1-čky<br />
<br />
''David Kozub''>> Jelikoz se vyskytuju ve Zline i v Praze, muzu zajistit prevoz do Prahy.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No tak například tady to máš dokonce na videu: http://youtube.com/watch?v=k9QLdK6pFCI ;-) Ale jinak i na wiki se povalují fotky FreeRunnera. Například hned ta první na hlavní stránce ;-)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> To video je parádní. Co se týče té fotky z úvodu wiki, myslel jsem, že je to jenom render. Jinak jak jsem tak bloudil po stránkách české pošty - nejlevněj to nejspíš vyjde poslat jako profibalík za myslím že 64korun. Za dobírku se něco ještě připlácí. Balík je pojištěný do 100 000. [http://www.cpost.cz:80/jetspeed/portal/media-type/html/user/anon/page/default.psml/js_pane/sluzbyonline%2Czasilky?docid=370&calc_lb0=10424&calc_cb0=1 více zde]<br />
<br />
ad. '''Praha (Čechy):'''<br />
<br />
''Tom Varga''>> Pokoušel jsem se vyčíst z mailing listu, jak je to s tou množstevní slevou - co jsem z toho pochopil, tak by neměl být problém objednat množství nedělitené desíti, ale ty kusy navíc jsou pak [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016432.html bez slevy] a [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016202.html bez bonusu]; pořád by se to ale vyplatilo skrze poštovné. Prozatím bych navrhl, aby se zájemci z Prahy (Čech) zapsali / potvrdili smazáním otazníku v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu], možná něco podobného pro Slovensko - momentálně to vypadá, že bude snazší sehnat 20 zájemců celkem a taky by se tím mohla situace trochu vyjasnit. Osobně jsem schopen zajistit dovoz z Brna do Prahy, Liberce, Jablonce n.N. a přilehlých končin. Případné návrhy sem ;)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>> Řekl bych že čím větší balík poletí za Ameriky sem tím levněj to vyjde. Pokud není poštovné na gramy. 20-ti zájemců se určitě dočkáme. Když počítám Františka Horínka z Bratislavy tak je nás 18. Co se týče bonusů na headsetu moc nelpím ale ten pytel by se mně vážně hodil. Často v kapse kombinuju mobil a klíče nebo šroubovák...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>> Poštovné samozřejmě není na gramy, ale na libry, neboli každých započatých 0.45 kg se platí, plus se poštovné započítává do cla, mimochodem taková zásilka asi jen tak přes celnici neprojde, takže je možné, že nikdo (příjemce) bude muset dodat na celnici případné dokumenty dokladující hodnotu zasílaného zboží.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>> Tak dle "platného" celního sazebníku by se clo nemělo platit. Viz [http://disk.jabbim.cz/ivir@jabbim.com/celni_sazebnik.pdf Sazebník] strana 568. Tedy by se hradilo pouze DPH. Aspoň si myslím, že 20 telefonů jako "dárek" asi neprojde.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>>> No tím lépe, ale tak já to beztak myslel jako celý celní dluh a to dph je právě i z poštovného.<br />
<br />
''Miloslav Machotka''> Koukám že jsem trochu zaspal dění. :) V [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu] jsem se připsal k Praze. Mám to nejblíž, jsem z Vlašimi, ale jinak jsem pro to schopen dojet i do Brna. Jsem pro to aby se to vyřešilo, pokud možno, po desítkách a pak to rozvést (rozeslat) po Čechách a Slovensku. Bonusy se asi většině lidí hodí.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>>>>> DPH musíme taky platit ?? To je mrzuté. Kolik mají DPH slováci ? nevyšlo by to levněj poslat do Bratislavy a stama ''"propašovat"'' k nám ? Když už máme ten šengen... Nevrátí nám třeba amíci DPH které za to zaplatili u nich ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>>>>> Co je mi známo, tak při obchodování mimo zemi se DPH neúčtuje a účtuje se až v cílové zemi. Dle rok starého článku na měšci je základní sazba stejná, tj. 19%. Od DPH by to šlo odprostit pouze pokud by na tom balíku bylo napsáno, že se jedná o dárek. Pak se na to daň neuplatní. Jakmile se mi povede najít ustanovení/článek, tak jsem dám odkaz.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No ono je stále ještě otázkou, odkud to vůbec budou posílat. Protože sem někde viděl informace, že se budou snažit zásobovat Evropu z nějakého centra v Evropě. O tom dárku jsem taky slyšel, ale prej to taky není zaručený způsob. Celníci se do toho můžou podívat, a uvalit na to daň podle vlastního rozhodnutí (prej). Jinak ale je tu ještě možnost, že by nám to někdo dovezl. Nevíte jak to funguje v tom případě?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>To centrum v Evropě bylo v plánu avšak levněji jim to vyjde posílání z Ameriky, takže bude k dispozici jen jedno centrum v USA. Ohledně toho dárku jsem doposud četl, že jeho částka nesmí přesáhnout 55€, jinak je normálně proclíván. Při osobním převozu jsou nastaveny limity výše viz [http://www.celnisprava.cz/CmsGrc/Cestovani-a-nakupy/Jak-se-chovat/mimo-eu.htm celní správa].<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Kdyby vezl dva tři tak by možná ukecal že je to dárek ale dvacet... clo vem čert to bude nanejvýš 3,5% což není taková pálka. Spíš kdy se to DPH z toho platí ? Hned na celnici nebo musím podat něco jako daňové přiznání ?<br />
* No tak zatím jsem zjistil že nejspíš jediná šance jak se osvobodit od cla a DPH je že všeci sedem do letadla a zajedem si pro to. Limit je 6000kč na jednu osobu starší 15-ti let.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mares''>>>> Clo se na tento druh zboží nevztahuje. Platí se pouze české DPH, který ti celníci vyměří z ''ceny zboží + doprava + clo'', pak ti v případě fyzické osoby zašlou na tvou poštu, kde uhradíš DPH jako dobírku. U podnikatele je to trošku jiné. VAT (čili americké DPH) na zboží nebude uvaleno, jelikož zboží je vyváženo z USA.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No a dá se tohle spočítat předem? Abysme mohli stanovit cenu?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> No dokud nebude jasne kolik bude stat postovne (typ + vaha) a jaky bude kurs dolaru, tak presna cena asi tezko.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>No co. Tak ti každý pošlem sedm tisíc s tím, že potom přebytky rozdělíš do obálek a budeš předávat s každým telefonem obálku. Jinak to asi dost dobře nepůjde. Jedině že by nám to sem dopravila česká pobočka FIC-u/foxconn. Ale to je podle mně nepravděpodobné.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>JJ take myslim, ze bych dal predbeznou cenu 7K s tim, ze uz je poslem, at muzes pruzne zareagovat a ne pak cekat az vsichni poslou.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>> Kdyby se zase Steve nebo někdo vyjádřil v jakém je to stavu a přidal předběžný odhad kdy se začne prodávat. Teďka je to těžko. Můžou ho vydat zítra ale taky třeba i za půl roku pokud se objeví nějaký složitý problém.<br />
Ještě k té předběžné ceně - dolar není za 15 korun ale za 16,1-16,2 korun I s DPH se do těch 7000 nespíš nevejdem. Jestli že se domluvíme žo začnem posílat peníze tak navrhuju posílat 7500. IMHO dolar už níž nepůjde.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Co jsem se zatím díval na možnosti přepravy (DHL,Fedex,UPS,USPS), tak nejvýhodněji vychází USPS ([http://www.usps.com/ usps.com]), kdy se pohybujeme kolem částky 120$ i s pojištěním (kdyby to bylo cca 10kg což pochybuji). Bohužel maximální pojištění činí 5 000$, přičemž celková částka balíku vychází na cca 7 580$ . U ostatních jsem ohledně pojištění nenašel zmínku, přičemž poštovné vycházelo většinou přes 500$. Z pohledu pojištění by bylo vhodné objednávky rozdělit. Ještě bude záležet jaké poštovní služby nabídnou v e-shopu. Včera u ČSOB byla prodejní cena dolaru na 16,44Kč/$ a musím bohužel souhlasit, že lepší to už nebude. Jinak ceník je k dispozici na této adrese [http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781 http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781] .<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Teď mně napadlo - co kdyby jsem někde založili učet (nejlépe spořící) v dolarech a poslali to tam teď ? [http://www.mesec.cz/clanky/ucet-v-cizi-mene-ano-ale-kde/] Kdyby tak člověk věděl že pozítru neoznámí prodej...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>> Tak urcite bych pockal s placenim na nejake jistejsi vyjadreni, ale necekal bych na otevreni kramu, tehdy uz by chtelo, aby se to dalo hned objednat, co se tyka uctu neverim, ze dolar spadne, ale ani ze poroste a tak bych to neresil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vzhledem k množství objednávaného zboží bych možná už využil dopravních společností, které za nás provedou celní odbavení. Aspoň metodický pokyny k vyplnění JSD (jednotný správní doklad) nejsou triviální a zabere to minimálně půlden. Ukázku dokumentu jsme nalezl zde: [http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/ http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/].<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> Dole v tom dopisu z celního úřadu se píše: "který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost" to nikdo z nás má?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >> '''[http://www.trisoft.de/en_freerunner.htm Evropský Distributor]''', ale je celkem dražší.<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Což o to, [http://www.pulster.de/ tady] je o 50 euro levnější, ale nemyslím si, že to bude ve výsledku výhodnější.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>> Co jsem se díval do pokynů, tak to může vyplnit i fyzická osoba, jelikož každý způsobilý občan může provést obchodní činnost. Pouze nesmí být opakovaného rázu, tj. jednorázové obchody. Zkusím se tedy dotázat konkrétněji na tuto část. Ohledně toho evropského distributora nevím. Odhadem to vychází přes 1000 Kč dráž bez poštovného a bez bonusů. Jestliže se nám poradí vyřešit problém s celním úřadem, tak bych spíše volil objednávku z USA. Připadá mi, že tyhle obchody to jen objednají v USA, přijmou a přepošlou s přirážkou.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >>>> Take jsem pro USA, jen sem to nasel a ac ten od Radka Machulky je uz zajimavejsi tak verim, ze se dostanem i pod nej a jeste je tam ten obal a sluchatka.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Já jsem též pro USA. Ještě by bylo možné (teoreticky) zkusit si to objednat přes nějakého (mešího) obchodníka co bere věci od FIC-u<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''> Tož sem [[GroupSales#Aktu.C3.A1ln.C4.9B|vyhlásil konkurz]] na koordinátora pražské větve a snad se najde někdo kdo je schopen se vejít do těch zásadních bodů co jsem tam nastínil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Relativně požadavky splňuji. Mám studentský ČSOB účet mající limit na 1,5M, kartu Visa Classic, angličtinu zvládám na úrovni čtení technické dokumentace, bydlím na Barrandově a jabber též mám (ivir@jabbim.com). Jen tu důvěryhodnost nemám. :) S tím clem to bude ještě zajímavé, ale snad mi ohledně toho ještě poradí z celního úřadu. V nouzi mám k dispozici i OSVČ. :)<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Dle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017531.html příspěvku] bude dovoz zboží do USA zahájen někdy 1.června. K tomu je nutné připočítat min. týden až 3 než zboží dorazí do skladů. Z příspěvku teoreticky vyplývá, že bude i evropský HUB. Snad to bude za stejnou částku a s bonusy. :)<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>Podle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017607.html příspěvku] by měl webový shop odkazovat na us i eu a to vypadá čím dál nadějnějš co se týká poštovného aj cla.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' jestli to dobře překládám tak není jasné jakým způsobem to půjde z činy - jestli lodí nebo letadlem ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Ano, aspoň takto jsem to pochopil i já. Problémem je ta doba dodání. Jinak co se týká vyřízení JSD (cla), tak u zprostředkovatele [http://www.kama-eu.cz/ KAMA s.r.o.>, jež mi doporučil celní úřad, vychází na cca 1000 Kč viz ceník, což mi připadá přijatelné.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No mně ty informace od Steva přijdou vždycky nějaké zmatené. Nevědí jestli lodí nebo letadlem, ale odejít by to snad mělo až 1.6. (nebo co má znamenat to datum, v jeho zprávě), takže to ještě docela potrvá... :-(<br />
Jan Mareš: můžeš prosím popsat co přesně má být těch 1000Kč a jak se na to přijde? Já tomu pořád nějak nerozumím...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> <font color="gray">best case is I would start to test phones around the first of june. Then<br />
pack and ship.<br />
</font>1.6. začíná testovat telefony a potm je balit a odesílat.<br><br />
<font color=gray>The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically you<br />
build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy% pass the test, and the factory says.<br />
"good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on the<br />
test software, because that bad phone really was good." arrg.</font> Ale toto nějak moc nechápu.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vychází to takto: 250 Kč (vypracování JSD), 30 Kč (vypracování hodnoty), 250 Kč (jednani za deklaranta), 30 Kč (avízo) a pak asi ručení (350). Je to můj odhad a po konkrétním dotaze by měli sdělit částku. Asi tedy bude třeba připočítat poštovné (250 Kč). Zatím jsem jim napsal dotaz ohledně nepodnikající osoby s tímto množstvím, tak jsem zvědav kdy odpoví.<br />
Tu další část považuji za povzdychnutí, kdy jim vyrobili více telefonů z nichž jen část prošla a továrna chce tohle číslo minimalizovat a že dané chyby byly spíše SW povahy.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' Podle toho co píšeš bych řekl že by vyšlo levněj kdyby jsme brali všechny telefony dohromady.Jaké má výhody osamostatnění Prahy ?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' No nedokazeme pojistit 30telefonu na jejich cenu pri doprave, ale jinak pokud by to clo vyrizovala firma asi by to bylo vyhodnejsi.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Trochu mě znepokojují zprávy v community e-mail archivu, kde uvádějí, že openmoko e-shop využívá služeb UPS. U nich by nebyl problém s pojištěním, ale ty ceny. Cena je de facto konstantní na cca 600$ (při 10kg balíčku), takže pak by bylo vhodné objednávku shrnout dohromady. Pak by to vycházelo o cca 10$ na hlavu více. Snažím se přesvědčit otce jako OSVČ, že by byla objednávka napsaná na něj a tím pádem by odpadl problém s využitím výše uvedené společnosti od nichž jsem dostal zamítavé stanovisko ohledně "neobchodní zásilky".<br />
<br />
Pak už zbývá využít evropského distributora Pulster.de . Teoreticky mi vychází částka při dovozu z US na 7600 Kč a u Pulsteru na 7 660Kč bez poštovné. Avšak za předpokladu společné hromadné objednávky. V opačném případě je nutné připočíst u US objednávky cca tisícovku (při 10 lidech).<br />
<br />
Zapomněl jsem tedy dodat, že zboží by bylo v republice za 4-5 dnů + pár dnů na vyřízení celního řízení.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> veškeré spekulace jsou zatím velmi předběžné, protože ani sami prodejci ještě nemají jasno, za jakých podmínek budou FreeRunner prodávat. Každopádně Pulster se mi docela zamlouvá (viz níže), vypadá že s panem majitelem se dá rozumně domluvit. Asi mu řeknu že objednávám telefonů 40, aby byl kdyžtak ochoten větší slevy nebo nějakého zvýhodnění a nechám tu zásilku jenom rozdělit a poslat do Prahy a sobě... Ale jak říkám, pořád ještě je všechno předběžné, definitivně se rozhodne asi už během tohoto měsíce.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> Ještě jedna novinka: pan Christoph Pulster z pulster.de mně oznámil zahájení prodeje debug boardu za "lidovou" cenu 149€ což je docela rozdíl oproti 99$... Takže jak říkám, všechno jsou teď jenom teoretické úvahy jak objednávku zorganizovat. Ikdyž osobně dávám pulster.de naděje, myslím, že se na ceně jak debugboardu, tak telefonu, bude dát domluvit, stejně jako nulová cena za dopravu zní přijatelně :-)<br />
<br />
=== Doplňující informace ===<br />
* '''Vyjádření Pulster.de na objednávku většího množství telefonů:'''<br />
Hello,<br />
<br />
on OpenMoko wiki they announced: "Every 10 pack, will come with<br />
a box of stuff. 10 pouches and 10 head sets." Will this offer<br />
also be available in your shop? Some discount and bonus gadgets?<br />
I already want to order 20-30 phones to Czech Republic, so I am<br />
trying to find the best way, how to order this amount. Either<br />
from USA or from EU.<br />
<br />
Thank you, Martin Senkerik<br />
<br />
Hello,<br />
<br />
thanks a lot for asking. Right now we dont have Freerunner in<br />
stock, so no idea about earphones/pouches, sorry.<br />
I am happy to provide Czech users with OpenMokos. No customs,<br />
no paperwork, I have a lot CZ customers.<br />
Allow me to put you on the info list once it is avalaible and you<br />
get clear infos about all. We can work out free shipping and <br />
maybe some goodies.<br />
<br />
<br />
heres the standard info text:<br />
<br />
The new modell is called "Freerunner" (version GTA02).<br />
It will be available end of June 2008. We try to aim 300-350 EUR<br />
sales price.<br />
Once it's ready to ship, you willfind it in our shop.<br />
We do not make pre-orders of items we dont have in hands,<br />
so please understand. Once the Freerunner is in stock, ready to<br />
ship, we will send you a one-time info mail (we do not send<br />
you any spam, dont worry).<br />
<br />
Of course we are happy you bookmark us and come back to check<br />
for the nice Freerunner. Please find a small datasheet here:<br />
http://www.pulster.de/info/pdas/openmoko/freerunner-flyer.pdf<br />
<br />
<br />
Beste Gruesse aus Leimen,<br />
Christoph Pulster<br />
<br />
* '''Moje komunikace s pobočkou FIC v ČR:'''<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
Taiwanský FIC v nejbližších dnech začne s prodejem mobilního telefonu<br />
Neo FreeRunner (www.openmoko.com). Chci se zeptat, jestli bude možné případné<br />
reklamace a opravy řešit u vás?<br />
<br />
Zatím není známý přesný způsob distribuce tohoto telefonu pro Evropu<br />
a Českou republiku. Nebude vaše pobočka zapojena do distribuční sítě?<br />
<br />
Děkuji za odpověď, Martin Šenkeřík<br />
Odpověď:<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
FIC CZ s.r.o. v těchto měsících přechází pod Foxconn CZ.<br />
V případě reklamace či informací se obracejte přímo na FIC TW.<br />
Kontaktní osobou na Zákaznickém oddělení je<br />
<br />
Mr. James Chang<br />
Customer Service Department<br />
Te.: +886 2 8751 8751 ext.6196<br />
James_chang@fic.com.tw<br />
<br />
S pozdravem<br />
<br />
Jarka Ripplova<br />
<br />
* '''Dotaz na celní úřad ohledně zpracování zásilky:'''<br />
Věc: Informace<br />
<br />
K Vaší žádosti o informaci týkající se hromadného dovozu zásilky pro osobní<br />
potřebu více příjemců Vám sdělujeme:<br />
<br />
Za zásilku zboží neobchodní povahy se ve smyslu celních předpisů považují<br />
zásilky, které jsou dováženy příležitostně a které obsahují výhradně zboží<br />
určené k osobnímu užití příjemců nebo jejich rodin, přičemž toto zboží nesmí<br />
povahou ani množstvím svědčit o obchodním úmyslu dovozce. Z uvedeného<br />
vyplývá, že tzv. sběrná zásilka nemůže být považována za zásilku zboží<br />
neobchodní povahy, i když obsah je určen pro osobní potřebu soukromých osob.<br />
Při dovozu zásilky obchodní povahy je zásilka zadržena při vstupu na celní<br />
území EU a příjemce vyzván k předložení celního prohlášení. Celní formality<br />
uskutečňuje příjemce, který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost.<br />
<br />
Pro zboží zařazené v některé z podpoložek čísla 8517 je celním sazebníkem EU<br />
stanovena sazba cla 0 %. Při dovozu zásilky zboží obchodního charakteru<br />
celní orgány posuzují, zda zboží nepodléhá zvláštnímu řízení podle zákona č.<br />
38/1994 Sb., o zahraničním obchodu s vojenským materiálem. Vedle cla se při<br />
propuštění dovezeného zboží do volného oběhu v tuzemsku vyměřuje DPH v<br />
základní sazbě 19 %. Základem pro vyměření DPH je cena, za kterou bylo zboží<br />
prodáno do EU, ke které se přičtou náklady na dopravu zásilky do EU, podle<br />
příslušných ustanovení zákona o DPH.<br />
<br />
Celní dluh, jehož součástí je i DPH, se vyměří v českých korunách z celní<br />
hodnoty převedené na české koruny v kurzu platném pro příslušné období.<br />
Aktuální kurzy měn jsou uveřejněny na stránkách Celní správy České republiky<br />
www.cs.mfcr.cz cestou Servis - Kurzovní lístky.</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Group_salesTalk:Group sales2008-05-29T11:34:02Z<p>Mivaho: /* The Netherlands */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
== England ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}<br />
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?<br />
<br />
:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.<br />
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
::Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====<br />
<br />
I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?<br />
<br />
I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?<br />
<br />
In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(<br />
<br />
:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] - [mailto:stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk let me know] if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
<br />
Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)<br />
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.<br />
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but<br />
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}<br />
<br />
<br />
Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php<br />
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen<br />
<br />
Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van <br />
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd <br />
zou willen zien worden.<br />
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie <br />
over het te leveren artikel.<br />
<br />
Uw naam J. de Haan<br />
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
Artikelinformatie<br />
Merk openmoko<br />
Naam freerunner<br />
Website openmoko.com<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen <br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor <br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail <br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
E-mailcontact - verzonden<br />
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.<br />
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)<br />
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not<br />
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out <br />
on Utrecht CS :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)<br />
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? <br /><br />
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1." <br />
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.<br />
<br />
{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will have 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Belgium Belgium]. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.<br />
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:<br />
<br />
Geachte heer,<br />
<br />
Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
<br />
Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx<br />
Product Management / Technical Support<br />
<br />
Salland Automatisering<br />
<br />
Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post. <br /><br />
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.<br />
from Jan de Haan <haan.j.de@gmail.com><br />
to inkoop@azerty.nl,<br />
date Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM<br />
subject Openmoko - Freerunner<br />
mailed-by gmail.com<br />
<br />
hide details 8:52 PM (0 minutes ago)<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen<br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor<br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
Een importeur schijnt trisoft.de te zijn. Let wel: dit product is<br />
nog niet op de markt,<br />
al zijn de laatste test productie runs klaar.<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail<br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken. <br /><br />
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):<br />
<br />
=== Votes for a reseller ===<br />
{|border=1<br />
!Name<br />
!Trisoft<br />
!Open Source Nieuws Nederland<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (Subject to a solution for warranty)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[Special:Emailuser/User:PWerken|Peter van de Werken]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (note: I'll buy 2 Freerunners)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (If warranty is OK)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|'''Total'''<br />
|<br />
|10<br />
|}<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:<br />
Beste Yorick,<br />
<br />
Bedankt voor je mail en informatie; ik kende de toestellen niet, maar zou ze<br />
best eens van dichtbij willen bekijken. Het 'developer' model lijkt me dan<br />
echter weer minder interessant voor ons; het 'consumer' model zou eind 2008<br />
op de markt moeten komen?<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
With kind regards,<br />
<br />
Michael Brus<br />
Manager PDAshop<br />
<br />
<br />
Coolblue<br />
Molenbaan 11 . 2908 LL Capelle a/d IJssel . www.coolblue.nl<br />
<br />
Coolblue is...<br />
MP3shop.nl . PDAshop.nl . Digicamshop.nl . GPSshop.nl .<br />
Smartphoneshop.nl . Consoleshop.nl . Telefoonshop.nl . meer...<br />
<br />
Should I forward this to Michael Shiloh?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 07/05} I'll vote to wait until there are actually phones shipping, until that time, the more people we gather here, and maybe other dealers, the better the deal we get(I hope).<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 08/05} <br />
Well, I want to have the phone as soon as possible. The best deal ever isn't my main concern.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 13/05}<br />
I've been browsing the mailing list, and found [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/016971.html this post] from Openmoko's Steve. Group sales have 28 days of DOA (Dead On Arrival) coverage, and single sales have 14 days of DOA coverage. Which I think is reasonable. BTW, I don't think there will be a better deal than the $369 per phone for the 10-pack. <br /><br />
We currently have enough people to fill 2 10-packs, which is awesome! <br /><br />
What we do need to figure out are the import costs, and the shipping costs. (it's shipped via UPS, if I recall correctly from the mailing list.)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 22/05}<br />
<br />
I wouldn't be too sure that this is financially going to be the best deal. This message in the community mailing list (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017668.html) shows interesting info regarding Pulster.<br />
----<br />
''Christph Pulster wrote:<br />
''> about 10 pack orders - we try to be cheaper than the 10-order-<br />
''> pack-price ! so no need to collect ten local buyers.<br />
<br />
''This sounds so good...! I'm waiting for official news (and maybe infos<br />
about the gifts too)...''<br />
----<br />
'''I checked their webpage and they advertise with OpenMoko Freerunner 299 eur'''<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 22/05} I checked their website too and it says 'Sobald der Freerunner wirklich lieferbar ist, ist er an dieser Stelle mit konkretem Preis zu finden und real bestellbar.' Which could mean that the price will be something other than 299 euro.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I like the pulster deal a lot, even if they are the same price as buying the 10 pack in the US the warranty part is a lot better seeing Germany is next door to us. Only thing is that you would mis out on the pouch and headset, dunno if that's such a great loss. And they say they will be going under the price of the US 10 pack order if you order the 10 from them. So maybe a vote on yes or no to the pouch/headset deal? Maybe we should check if with Pulster a group order of 10+ will always give the discount. Like 22 will get the same discount and that we are not forced in getting groups of ten people.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I wrote an e-mail to pulster with the questions so I will post the answer here when I get one.<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 24/05} <br />
The pouch and headset are not that important IMO. I guess most join the group sale for convenience and reduce cost. But maybe I'm wrong.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
<br />
'''From the community mailing list again:<br />
<br />
'''Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote [to Pulster - Ed.]:<br />
''>> 1. Do you know when you'll be approximately able to define a price?<br />
''>> 2. The Freerunner will be shipped with extra goodies (generally<br />
''>> given only to people buying a 10-pack (ie: pouch and headset)?<br />
''> <br />
<br />
'''From Pulster [Ed.]<br />
<br />
''> Price fix ASAP I have the units in own hands/stocks.<br />
''> 299-319 eur is really realistic.<br />
''> <br />
''> All goodies included at PULSTER !<br />
''> <br />
''> Also can be bought a lot accessories extra very soon (debug board, pens, <br />
''> cases etc)<br />
''> <br />
''> you see, I will make all your wishes true :)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/05} Yeah, read that message in the weekend, no reply to my mail at this moment but seeing this message straight from pulster I would say that we should buy directly from pulster as a group. Warranty wise it's better as well.<br />
<br />
399 U.S. dollars is about 253 Euros and including VAT that would become 301.07 Euro so pulster with their price being 299 Euro (see below) has a good price and for 10 and more there is a discount just like in the US. I would propose to take the dutch group sale to Pulster.<br />
<br />
The following mail from Chis Pulster was on the list also.<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
I am Chris from pulster.eu - my hello to this great community.<br />
<br />
May I add some points from my side:<br />
<br />
- Freerunner - ready to order ASAP it is available. We do not<br />
take pre-orders of items we dont have in hands. For a one-time info- <br />
mail once the Freerunner is ready to order, please just email me <br />
mailto: christoph@pulster.de<br />
- we aim a Freerunner price tag of 299 EUR incl. VAT<br />
- shipping worldwide with DHL, Europa 15 EUR, World 30 EUR postage<br />
- soon we offer accessories for Freerunner like spare batterie, charger, <br />
Headset, pouch and also the debug-board<br />
- group-sales make local communities, that is wonderful. I am happy to <br />
sell Freerunner separately or in packages.<br />
<br />
Many thanks,<br />
Chris<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
Indeed let's take the dutch group sale to Pulster. We are with 22 so we should be able to make a good deal regarding the goodies. And in that way no-one has to take any financial risk.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 28/05} My guess is, that for a group buy at pulster there is still one entity needed for buying the devices. The thing is that with pulster, as with the US deal, the waranty should be per person and not named for the buying entity.<br />
<br />
:I don't think that we need to do the 'group buy' at Pulster. You can just buy the device at 299 a piece there. I would like to have the pouch though, if they can assure me that the pouch and other goodies would be included in the deal (because they of course could make a number of 'groupbuys' for the entire customer base), then count me in.--[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
:: Your absolutly right on this one, been thinking about it and the possible discount we would be getting would wasted on shipping within the Netherlands again. Like you said, if there are goodies involved it's a different deal of course :) . --[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
:::So let's start negotiating with Pulster regarding the goodies. We can bring in 22 customers, so he has something to win. It might be important to know whether Pulster takes credit card payments. I cannot find that option on their webpage and an electronic banktransfer will add another 15 (?) euro.[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
<br />
:::: I'm afraid they don't accept credit cards (from their [http://www.pulster.de/engl/imprint.htm About Us page]:<br />
<br />
We do not accept any other payment option like PayPal, Reembourse/Cash-on-delivery (COD) payments, <br />
direct CreditCard payments, any kind of cheques, western union, postal money orders, cash. Please dont <br />
ask, we do not accept none of this options thanks to a very few but very expensive scams. <br />
<br />
::::: Nice double negative in there, btw. But still, 299+15 is less than 350 or 400. ;) --[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
:::::: If it is going to be a group sale (if pulster provides the goodies) it would be (discounted price * 22 + transfer rate + (21 * shipping within Holland)) [[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
== Canada ==<br />
==== GTA (Toronto) ====<br />
{ --[[User:Argo|Argo]] 03:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC) }<br />
For group 1 it looks like they have actually gotten the 10 orders in? or am I them adding up wrong?<br />
<br />
== Croatia ==<br />
{--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 14:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)} '''ja ne bih da već sada radimo pan-balkansku grupu, iskreno sam iznenađen odazivom do sada, pa jedino možda ako ne skupimo dovoljno ljudi do kraja ovog tjedna...'''<br />
<br />
moj post sa hr.comp.os.linux upućen mnalisu;<br />
<br />
> BTW, ti si zapravo kontaktirao HULK i rekli su ti da bi to oni isli raditi i<br />
<br />
> gnjaviti se sa svim tim, ili ih cisto spominjes onako u smislu "pa oni su<br />
<br />
> dragi ljudi, sigurno ce besplatno uloziti mjesece svog zivota u to u zamjenu<br />
<br />
> za pivu" ?<br />
<br />
Davio sam ih malo zadnja dva dana na IRCu, i prema logu načelno su za<br />
da se narudžbe hendlaju preko njih. A i mislim da se ipak ne radi o<br />
mjesecima života bačenih za pivu, more like možda 2-3 sata za gajbu<br />
ili dvije :), hell ako je toliko teško napravit ću ja sve, učlanit se<br />
u HULK ako treba<br />
<br />
ali do toga trenutka ovako ja razmišljam:<br />
<br />
1.) skupimo 10 zainteresiranih<br />
2.) ja nazovem carinu i agenciju za telekomunikacije<br />
3.) pitamo openmoko za shipping estimate<br />
4.) ako su svi i dalje za, skupljanje sredstava i na kraju narudžba<br />
<br />
dakle ništa nije obligatory, idemo step by step, onog trenutka kada se<br />
prijavi 10 ljudi na wikiju ja zovem nadležne službe, pa ćemo vidit di<br />
stojimo sa uvozom i tim''<br />
<br />
nemoj odmah "worst case scenario" :)<br />
<br />
>> mozda da se malo na elitesecurity.org pokrene rasprava?<br />
<br />
--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 10:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC) svakako, ja sam za<br />
<br />
== Czech Republic ==<br />
Distribuční seznam, základní informace naleznete v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Czech_Republic GroupSales]<br />
<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Diskuze Diskuze]<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Dopl.C5.88uj.C3.ADc.C3.AD_informace Doplňující informace]<br />
<br />
=== Diskuze ===<br />
''Martin Holec''> Máme tu 4x ze Zlína, co kdyby někdo jel do Brna pro 4ks a ve Zlíně by se rozdělili?<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> jak jsem psal, já do Zlína jezdívám, a od května do září budu ve Zlíně velmi často, takže se Zlínem není vůbec problém.<br />
<br />
Jinak už se objevily nějaké termíny. Jestli jsem to dobře pochopil, tak 9.5. by už mohla začít masová výroba a brzy na to by měl začít prodej...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak by měl vlastně vypadat? Takový ten bíly se mně moc nelíbí. Radši bych měl [http://http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:FIC-neo1973_small.jpg černý].<br />
<br />
''Michal Pěnka''> Protože jsem jedenáctý a nevím, jestli bude možné objednat 11 kusů nebo jen po desítkách, domluvím se s Tomem Vargou později (jestli by byl ochotný pro převoz do Prahy), každopádně bych také raději ten černý.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak to tak tady pročítám tak to půjde objednat za zvýhodněnou cenu (+pytlík? a headset) opravdu jenom po desítkách. Ale IMHO když této stránce zvedneme popularitu (případně přiberem Slováky) tak jich budem nakonec brát minimálně dvacet ;) Mně osobně připadá datum 9.5. hodně optimistické.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> FreeRunner bude pouze v jedné barevné variantě, a to černý. To datum 9.5. mám [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates odsud]<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>Nemáte někdo fotku freerunnera ? na wiki jsem zatím našel jenom fotky GTA1-čky<br />
<br />
''David Kozub''>> Jelikoz se vyskytuju ve Zline i v Praze, muzu zajistit prevoz do Prahy.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No tak například tady to máš dokonce na videu: http://youtube.com/watch?v=k9QLdK6pFCI ;-) Ale jinak i na wiki se povalují fotky FreeRunnera. Například hned ta první na hlavní stránce ;-)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> To video je parádní. Co se týče té fotky z úvodu wiki, myslel jsem, že je to jenom render. Jinak jak jsem tak bloudil po stránkách české pošty - nejlevněj to nejspíš vyjde poslat jako profibalík za myslím že 64korun. Za dobírku se něco ještě připlácí. Balík je pojištěný do 100 000. [http://www.cpost.cz:80/jetspeed/portal/media-type/html/user/anon/page/default.psml/js_pane/sluzbyonline%2Czasilky?docid=370&calc_lb0=10424&calc_cb0=1 více zde]<br />
<br />
ad. '''Praha (Čechy):'''<br />
<br />
''Tom Varga''>> Pokoušel jsem se vyčíst z mailing listu, jak je to s tou množstevní slevou - co jsem z toho pochopil, tak by neměl být problém objednat množství nedělitené desíti, ale ty kusy navíc jsou pak [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016432.html bez slevy] a [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016202.html bez bonusu]; pořád by se to ale vyplatilo skrze poštovné. Prozatím bych navrhl, aby se zájemci z Prahy (Čech) zapsali / potvrdili smazáním otazníku v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu], možná něco podobného pro Slovensko - momentálně to vypadá, že bude snazší sehnat 20 zájemců celkem a taky by se tím mohla situace trochu vyjasnit. Osobně jsem schopen zajistit dovoz z Brna do Prahy, Liberce, Jablonce n.N. a přilehlých končin. Případné návrhy sem ;)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>> Řekl bych že čím větší balík poletí za Ameriky sem tím levněj to vyjde. Pokud není poštovné na gramy. 20-ti zájemců se určitě dočkáme. Když počítám Františka Horínka z Bratislavy tak je nás 18. Co se týče bonusů na headsetu moc nelpím ale ten pytel by se mně vážně hodil. Často v kapse kombinuju mobil a klíče nebo šroubovák...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>> Poštovné samozřejmě není na gramy, ale na libry, neboli každých započatých 0.45 kg se platí, plus se poštovné započítává do cla, mimochodem taková zásilka asi jen tak přes celnici neprojde, takže je možné, že nikdo (příjemce) bude muset dodat na celnici případné dokumenty dokladující hodnotu zasílaného zboží.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>> Tak dle "platného" celního sazebníku by se clo nemělo platit. Viz [http://disk.jabbim.cz/ivir@jabbim.com/celni_sazebnik.pdf Sazebník] strana 568. Tedy by se hradilo pouze DPH. Aspoň si myslím, že 20 telefonů jako "dárek" asi neprojde.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>>> No tím lépe, ale tak já to beztak myslel jako celý celní dluh a to dph je právě i z poštovného.<br />
<br />
''Miloslav Machotka''> Koukám že jsem trochu zaspal dění. :) V [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu] jsem se připsal k Praze. Mám to nejblíž, jsem z Vlašimi, ale jinak jsem pro to schopen dojet i do Brna. Jsem pro to aby se to vyřešilo, pokud možno, po desítkách a pak to rozvést (rozeslat) po Čechách a Slovensku. Bonusy se asi většině lidí hodí.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>>>>> DPH musíme taky platit ?? To je mrzuté. Kolik mají DPH slováci ? nevyšlo by to levněj poslat do Bratislavy a stama ''"propašovat"'' k nám ? Když už máme ten šengen... Nevrátí nám třeba amíci DPH které za to zaplatili u nich ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>>>>> Co je mi známo, tak při obchodování mimo zemi se DPH neúčtuje a účtuje se až v cílové zemi. Dle rok starého článku na měšci je základní sazba stejná, tj. 19%. Od DPH by to šlo odprostit pouze pokud by na tom balíku bylo napsáno, že se jedná o dárek. Pak se na to daň neuplatní. Jakmile se mi povede najít ustanovení/článek, tak jsem dám odkaz.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No ono je stále ještě otázkou, odkud to vůbec budou posílat. Protože sem někde viděl informace, že se budou snažit zásobovat Evropu z nějakého centra v Evropě. O tom dárku jsem taky slyšel, ale prej to taky není zaručený způsob. Celníci se do toho můžou podívat, a uvalit na to daň podle vlastního rozhodnutí (prej). Jinak ale je tu ještě možnost, že by nám to někdo dovezl. Nevíte jak to funguje v tom případě?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>To centrum v Evropě bylo v plánu avšak levněji jim to vyjde posílání z Ameriky, takže bude k dispozici jen jedno centrum v USA. Ohledně toho dárku jsem doposud četl, že jeho částka nesmí přesáhnout 55€, jinak je normálně proclíván. Při osobním převozu jsou nastaveny limity výše viz [http://www.celnisprava.cz/CmsGrc/Cestovani-a-nakupy/Jak-se-chovat/mimo-eu.htm celní správa].<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Kdyby vezl dva tři tak by možná ukecal že je to dárek ale dvacet... clo vem čert to bude nanejvýš 3,5% což není taková pálka. Spíš kdy se to DPH z toho platí ? Hned na celnici nebo musím podat něco jako daňové přiznání ?<br />
* No tak zatím jsem zjistil že nejspíš jediná šance jak se osvobodit od cla a DPH je že všeci sedem do letadla a zajedem si pro to. Limit je 6000kč na jednu osobu starší 15-ti let.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mares''>>>> Clo se na tento druh zboží nevztahuje. Platí se pouze české DPH, který ti celníci vyměří z ''ceny zboží + doprava + clo'', pak ti v případě fyzické osoby zašlou na tvou poštu, kde uhradíš DPH jako dobírku. U podnikatele je to trošku jiné. VAT (čili americké DPH) na zboží nebude uvaleno, jelikož zboží je vyváženo z USA.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No a dá se tohle spočítat předem? Abysme mohli stanovit cenu?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> No dokud nebude jasne kolik bude stat postovne (typ + vaha) a jaky bude kurs dolaru, tak presna cena asi tezko.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>No co. Tak ti každý pošlem sedm tisíc s tím, že potom přebytky rozdělíš do obálek a budeš předávat s každým telefonem obálku. Jinak to asi dost dobře nepůjde. Jedině že by nám to sem dopravila česká pobočka FIC-u/foxconn. Ale to je podle mně nepravděpodobné.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>JJ take myslim, ze bych dal predbeznou cenu 7K s tim, ze uz je poslem, at muzes pruzne zareagovat a ne pak cekat az vsichni poslou.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>> Kdyby se zase Steve nebo někdo vyjádřil v jakém je to stavu a přidal předběžný odhad kdy se začne prodávat. Teďka je to těžko. Můžou ho vydat zítra ale taky třeba i za půl roku pokud se objeví nějaký složitý problém.<br />
Ještě k té předběžné ceně - dolar není za 15 korun ale za 16,1-16,2 korun I s DPH se do těch 7000 nespíš nevejdem. Jestli že se domluvíme žo začnem posílat peníze tak navrhuju posílat 7500. IMHO dolar už níž nepůjde.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Co jsem se zatím díval na možnosti přepravy (DHL,Fedex,UPS,USPS), tak nejvýhodněji vychází USPS ([http://www.usps.com/ usps.com]), kdy se pohybujeme kolem částky 120$ i s pojištěním (kdyby to bylo cca 10kg což pochybuji). Bohužel maximální pojištění činí 5 000$, přičemž celková částka balíku vychází na cca 7 580$ . U ostatních jsem ohledně pojištění nenašel zmínku, přičemž poštovné vycházelo většinou přes 500$. Z pohledu pojištění by bylo vhodné objednávky rozdělit. Ještě bude záležet jaké poštovní služby nabídnou v e-shopu. Včera u ČSOB byla prodejní cena dolaru na 16,44Kč/$ a musím bohužel souhlasit, že lepší to už nebude. Jinak ceník je k dispozici na této adrese [http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781 http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781] .<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Teď mně napadlo - co kdyby jsem někde založili učet (nejlépe spořící) v dolarech a poslali to tam teď ? [http://www.mesec.cz/clanky/ucet-v-cizi-mene-ano-ale-kde/] Kdyby tak člověk věděl že pozítru neoznámí prodej...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>> Tak urcite bych pockal s placenim na nejake jistejsi vyjadreni, ale necekal bych na otevreni kramu, tehdy uz by chtelo, aby se to dalo hned objednat, co se tyka uctu neverim, ze dolar spadne, ale ani ze poroste a tak bych to neresil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vzhledem k množství objednávaného zboží bych možná už využil dopravních společností, které za nás provedou celní odbavení. Aspoň metodický pokyny k vyplnění JSD (jednotný správní doklad) nejsou triviální a zabere to minimálně půlden. Ukázku dokumentu jsme nalezl zde: [http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/ http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/].<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> Dole v tom dopisu z celního úřadu se píše: "který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost" to nikdo z nás má?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >> '''[http://www.trisoft.de/en_freerunner.htm Evropský Distributor]''', ale je celkem dražší.<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Což o to, [http://www.pulster.de/ tady] je o 50 euro levnější, ale nemyslím si, že to bude ve výsledku výhodnější.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>> Co jsem se díval do pokynů, tak to může vyplnit i fyzická osoba, jelikož každý způsobilý občan může provést obchodní činnost. Pouze nesmí být opakovaného rázu, tj. jednorázové obchody. Zkusím se tedy dotázat konkrétněji na tuto část. Ohledně toho evropského distributora nevím. Odhadem to vychází přes 1000 Kč dráž bez poštovného a bez bonusů. Jestliže se nám poradí vyřešit problém s celním úřadem, tak bych spíše volil objednávku z USA. Připadá mi, že tyhle obchody to jen objednají v USA, přijmou a přepošlou s přirážkou.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >>>> Take jsem pro USA, jen sem to nasel a ac ten od Radka Machulky je uz zajimavejsi tak verim, ze se dostanem i pod nej a jeste je tam ten obal a sluchatka.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Já jsem též pro USA. Ještě by bylo možné (teoreticky) zkusit si to objednat přes nějakého (mešího) obchodníka co bere věci od FIC-u<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''> Tož sem [[GroupSales#Aktu.C3.A1ln.C4.9B|vyhlásil konkurz]] na koordinátora pražské větve a snad se najde někdo kdo je schopen se vejít do těch zásadních bodů co jsem tam nastínil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Relativně požadavky splňuji. Mám studentský ČSOB účet mající limit na 1,5M, kartu Visa Classic, angličtinu zvládám na úrovni čtení technické dokumentace, bydlím na Barrandově a jabber též mám (ivir@jabbim.com). Jen tu důvěryhodnost nemám. :) S tím clem to bude ještě zajímavé, ale snad mi ohledně toho ještě poradí z celního úřadu. V nouzi mám k dispozici i OSVČ. :)<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Dle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017531.html příspěvku] bude dovoz zboží do USA zahájen někdy 1.června. K tomu je nutné připočítat min. týden až 3 než zboží dorazí do skladů. Z příspěvku teoreticky vyplývá, že bude i evropský HUB. Snad to bude za stejnou částku a s bonusy. :)<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>Podle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017607.html příspěvku] by měl webový shop odkazovat na us i eu a to vypadá čím dál nadějnějš co se týká poštovného aj cla.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' jestli to dobře překládám tak není jasné jakým způsobem to půjde z činy - jestli lodí nebo letadlem ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Ano, aspoň takto jsem to pochopil i já. Problémem je ta doba dodání. Jinak co se týká vyřízení JSD (cla), tak u zprostředkovatele [http://www.kama-eu.cz/ KAMA s.r.o.>, jež mi doporučil celní úřad, vychází na cca 1000 Kč viz ceník, což mi připadá přijatelné.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No mně ty informace od Steva přijdou vždycky nějaké zmatené. Nevědí jestli lodí nebo letadlem, ale odejít by to snad mělo až 1.6. (nebo co má znamenat to datum, v jeho zprávě), takže to ještě docela potrvá... :-(<br />
Jan Mareš: můžeš prosím popsat co přesně má být těch 1000Kč a jak se na to přijde? Já tomu pořád nějak nerozumím...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> <font color="gray">best case is I would start to test phones around the first of june. Then<br />
pack and ship.<br />
</font>1.6. začíná testovat telefony a potm je balit a odesílat.<br><br />
<font color=gray>The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically you<br />
build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy% pass the test, and the factory says.<br />
"good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on the<br />
test software, because that bad phone really was good." arrg.</font> Ale toto nějak moc nechápu.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vychází to takto: 250 Kč (vypracování JSD), 30 Kč (vypracování hodnoty), 250 Kč (jednani za deklaranta), 30 Kč (avízo) a pak asi ručení (350). Je to můj odhad a po konkrétním dotaze by měli sdělit částku. Asi tedy bude třeba připočítat poštovné (250 Kč). Zatím jsem jim napsal dotaz ohledně nepodnikající osoby s tímto množstvím, tak jsem zvědav kdy odpoví.<br />
Tu další část považuji za povzdychnutí, kdy jim vyrobili více telefonů z nichž jen část prošla a továrna chce tohle číslo minimalizovat a že dané chyby byly spíše SW povahy.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' Podle toho co píšeš bych řekl že by vyšlo levněj kdyby jsme brali všechny telefony dohromady.Jaké má výhody osamostatnění Prahy ?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' No nedokazeme pojistit 30telefonu na jejich cenu pri doprave, ale jinak pokud by to clo vyrizovala firma asi by to bylo vyhodnejsi.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Trochu mě znepokojují zprávy v community e-mail archivu, kde uvádějí, že openmoko e-shop využívá služeb UPS. U nich by nebyl problém s pojištěním, ale ty ceny. Cena je de facto konstantní na cca 600$ (při 10kg balíčku), takže pak by bylo vhodné objednávku shrnout dohromady. Pak by to vycházelo o cca 10$ na hlavu více. Snažím se přesvědčit otce jako OSVČ, že by byla objednávka napsaná na něj a tím pádem by odpadl problém s využitím výše uvedené společnosti od nichž jsem dostal zamítavé stanovisko ohledně "neobchodní zásilky".<br />
<br />
Pak už zbývá využít evropského distributora Pulster.de . Teoreticky mi vychází částka při dovozu z US na 7600 Kč a u Pulsteru na 7 660Kč bez poštovné. Avšak za předpokladu společné hromadné objednávky. V opačném případě je nutné připočíst u US objednávky cca tisícovku (při 10 lidech).<br />
<br />
Zapomněl jsem tedy dodat, že zboží by bylo v republice za 4-5 dnů + pár dnů na vyřízení celního řízení.<br />
<br />
=== Doplňující informace ===<br />
* '''Moje komunikace s pobočkou FIC v ČR:'''<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
Taiwanský FIC v nejbližších dnech začne s prodejem mobilního telefonu<br />
Neo FreeRunner (www.openmoko.com). Chci se zeptat, jestli bude možné případné<br />
reklamace a opravy řešit u vás?<br />
<br />
Zatím není známý přesný způsob distribuce tohoto telefonu pro Evropu<br />
a Českou republiku. Nebude vaše pobočka zapojena do distribuční sítě?<br />
<br />
Děkuji za odpověď, Martin Šenkeřík<br />
Odpověď:<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
FIC CZ s.r.o. v těchto měsících přechází pod Foxconn CZ.<br />
V případě reklamace či informací se obracejte přímo na FIC TW.<br />
Kontaktní osobou na Zákaznickém oddělení je<br />
<br />
Mr. James Chang<br />
Customer Service Department<br />
Te.: +886 2 8751 8751 ext.6196<br />
James_chang@fic.com.tw<br />
<br />
S pozdravem<br />
<br />
Jarka Ripplova<br />
<br />
* '''Dotaz na celní úřad ohledně zpracování zásilky:'''<br />
Věc: Informace<br />
<br />
K Vaší žádosti o informaci týkající se hromadného dovozu zásilky pro osobní<br />
potřebu více příjemců Vám sdělujeme:<br />
<br />
Za zásilku zboží neobchodní povahy se ve smyslu celních předpisů považují<br />
zásilky, které jsou dováženy příležitostně a které obsahují výhradně zboží<br />
určené k osobnímu užití příjemců nebo jejich rodin, přičemž toto zboží nesmí<br />
povahou ani množstvím svědčit o obchodním úmyslu dovozce. Z uvedeného<br />
vyplývá, že tzv. sběrná zásilka nemůže být považována za zásilku zboží<br />
neobchodní povahy, i když obsah je určen pro osobní potřebu soukromých osob.<br />
Při dovozu zásilky obchodní povahy je zásilka zadržena při vstupu na celní<br />
území EU a příjemce vyzván k předložení celního prohlášení. Celní formality<br />
uskutečňuje příjemce, který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost.<br />
<br />
Pro zboží zařazené v některé z podpoložek čísla 8517 je celním sazebníkem EU<br />
stanovena sazba cla 0 %. Při dovozu zásilky zboží obchodního charakteru<br />
celní orgány posuzují, zda zboží nepodléhá zvláštnímu řízení podle zákona č.<br />
38/1994 Sb., o zahraničním obchodu s vojenským materiálem. Vedle cla se při<br />
propuštění dovezeného zboží do volného oběhu v tuzemsku vyměřuje DPH v<br />
základní sazbě 19 %. Základem pro vyměření DPH je cena, za kterou bylo zboží<br />
prodáno do EU, ke které se přičtou náklady na dopravu zásilky do EU, podle<br />
příslušných ustanovení zákona o DPH.<br />
<br />
Celní dluh, jehož součástí je i DPH, se vyměří v českých korunách z celní<br />
hodnoty převedené na české koruny v kurzu platném pro příslušné období.<br />
Aktuální kurzy měn jsou uveřejněny na stránkách Celní správy České republiky<br />
www.cs.mfcr.cz cestou Servis - Kurzovní lístky.</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Group_salesTalk:Group sales2008-05-29T11:32:59Z<p>Mivaho: /* The Netherlands */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
== England ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}<br />
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?<br />
<br />
:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.<br />
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
::Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====<br />
<br />
I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?<br />
<br />
I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?<br />
<br />
In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(<br />
<br />
:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] - [mailto:stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk let me know] if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
<br />
Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)<br />
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.<br />
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but<br />
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}<br />
<br />
<br />
Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php<br />
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen<br />
<br />
Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van <br />
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd <br />
zou willen zien worden.<br />
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie <br />
over het te leveren artikel.<br />
<br />
Uw naam J. de Haan<br />
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
Artikelinformatie<br />
Merk openmoko<br />
Naam freerunner<br />
Website openmoko.com<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen <br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor <br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail <br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
E-mailcontact - verzonden<br />
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.<br />
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)<br />
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not<br />
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out <br />
on Utrecht CS :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)<br />
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? <br /><br />
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1." <br />
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.<br />
<br />
{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will have 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Belgium Belgium]. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.<br />
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:<br />
<br />
Geachte heer,<br />
<br />
Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
<br />
Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx<br />
Product Management / Technical Support<br />
<br />
Salland Automatisering<br />
<br />
Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post. <br /><br />
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.<br />
from Jan de Haan <haan.j.de@gmail.com><br />
to inkoop@azerty.nl,<br />
date Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM<br />
subject Openmoko - Freerunner<br />
mailed-by gmail.com<br />
<br />
hide details 8:52 PM (0 minutes ago)<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen<br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor<br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
Een importeur schijnt trisoft.de te zijn. Let wel: dit product is<br />
nog niet op de markt,<br />
al zijn de laatste test productie runs klaar.<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail<br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken. <br /><br />
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):<br />
<br />
=== Votes for a reseller ===<br />
{|border=1<br />
!Name<br />
!Trisoft<br />
!Open Source Nieuws Nederland<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (Subject to a solution for warranty)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[Special:Emailuser/User:PWerken|Peter van de Werken]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (note: I'll buy 2 Freerunners)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (If warranty is OK)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|'''Total'''<br />
|<br />
|10<br />
|}<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:<br />
Beste Yorick,<br />
<br />
Bedankt voor je mail en informatie; ik kende de toestellen niet, maar zou ze<br />
best eens van dichtbij willen bekijken. Het 'developer' model lijkt me dan<br />
echter weer minder interessant voor ons; het 'consumer' model zou eind 2008<br />
op de markt moeten komen?<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
With kind regards,<br />
<br />
Michael Brus<br />
Manager PDAshop<br />
<br />
<br />
Coolblue<br />
Molenbaan 11 . 2908 LL Capelle a/d IJssel . www.coolblue.nl<br />
<br />
Coolblue is...<br />
MP3shop.nl . PDAshop.nl . Digicamshop.nl . GPSshop.nl .<br />
Smartphoneshop.nl . Consoleshop.nl . Telefoonshop.nl . meer...<br />
<br />
Should I forward this to Michael Shiloh?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 07/05} I'll vote to wait until there are actually phones shipping, until that time, the more people we gather here, and maybe other dealers, the better the deal we get(I hope).<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 08/05} <br />
Well, I want to have the phone as soon as possible. The best deal ever isn't my main concern.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 13/05}<br />
I've been browsing the mailing list, and found [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/016971.html this post] from Openmoko's Steve. Group sales have 28 days of DOA (Dead On Arrival) coverage, and single sales have 14 days of DOA coverage. Which I think is reasonable. BTW, I don't think there will be a better deal than the $369 per phone for the 10-pack. <br /><br />
We currently have enough people to fill 2 10-packs, which is awesome! <br /><br />
What we do need to figure out are the import costs, and the shipping costs. (it's shipped via UPS, if I recall correctly from the mailing list.)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 22/05}<br />
<br />
I wouldn't be too sure that this is financially going to be the best deal. This message in the community mailing list (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017668.html) shows interesting info regarding Pulster.<br />
----<br />
''Christph Pulster wrote:<br />
''> about 10 pack orders - we try to be cheaper than the 10-order-<br />
''> pack-price ! so no need to collect ten local buyers.<br />
<br />
''This sounds so good...! I'm waiting for official news (and maybe infos<br />
about the gifts too)...''<br />
----<br />
'''I checked their webpage and they advertise with OpenMoko Freerunner 299 eur'''<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 22/05} I checked their website too and it says 'Sobald der Freerunner wirklich lieferbar ist, ist er an dieser Stelle mit konkretem Preis zu finden und real bestellbar.' Which could mean that the price will be something other than 299 euro.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I like the pulster deal a lot, even if they are the same price as buying the 10 pack in the US the warranty part is a lot better seeing Germany is next door to us. Only thing is that you would mis out on the pouch and headset, dunno if that's such a great loss. And they say they will be going under the price of the US 10 pack order if you order the 10 from them. So maybe a vote on yes or no to the pouch/headset deal? Maybe we should check if with Pulster a group order of 10+ will always give the discount. Like 22 will get the same discount and that we are not forced in getting groups of ten people.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I wrote an e-mail to pulster with the questions so I will post the answer here when I get one.<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 24/05} <br />
The pouch and headset are not that important IMO. I guess most join the group sale for convenience and reduce cost. But maybe I'm wrong.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
<br />
'''From the community mailing list again:<br />
<br />
'''Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote [to Pulster - Ed.]:<br />
''>> 1. Do you know when you'll be approximately able to define a price?<br />
''>> 2. The Freerunner will be shipped with extra goodies (generally<br />
''>> given only to people buying a 10-pack (ie: pouch and headset)?<br />
''> <br />
<br />
'''From Pulster [Ed.]<br />
<br />
''> Price fix ASAP I have the units in own hands/stocks.<br />
''> 299-319 eur is really realistic.<br />
''> <br />
''> All goodies included at PULSTER !<br />
''> <br />
''> Also can be bought a lot accessories extra very soon (debug board, pens, <br />
''> cases etc)<br />
''> <br />
''> you see, I will make all your wishes true :)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/05} Yeah, read that message in the weekend, no reply to my mail at this moment but seeing this message straight from pulster I would say that we should buy directly from pulster as a group. Warranty wise it's better as well.<br />
<br />
399 U.S. dollars is about 253 Euros and including VAT that would become 301.07 Euro so pulster with their price being 299 Euro (see below) has a good price and for 10 and more there is a discount just like in the US. I would propose to take the dutch group sale to Pulster.<br />
<br />
The following mail from Chis Pulster was on the list also.<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
I am Chris from pulster.eu - my hello to this great community.<br />
<br />
May I add some points from my side:<br />
<br />
- Freerunner - ready to order ASAP it is available. We do not<br />
take pre-orders of items we dont have in hands. For a one-time info- <br />
mail once the Freerunner is ready to order, please just email me <br />
mailto: christoph@pulster.de<br />
- we aim a Freerunner price tag of 299 EUR incl. VAT<br />
- shipping worldwide with DHL, Europa 15 EUR, World 30 EUR postage<br />
- soon we offer accessories for Freerunner like spare batterie, charger, <br />
Headset, pouch and also the debug-board<br />
- group-sales make local communities, that is wonderful. I am happy to <br />
sell Freerunner separately or in packages.<br />
<br />
Many thanks,<br />
Chris<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
Indeed let's take the dutch group sale to Pulster. We are with 22 so we should be able to make a good deal regarding the goodies. And in that way no-one has to take any financial risk.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 28/05} My guess is, that for a group buy at pulster there is still one entity needed for buying the devices. The thing is that with pulster, as with the US deal, the waranty should be per person and not named for the buying entity.<br />
<br />
:I don't think that we need to do the 'group buy' at Pulster. You can just buy the device at 299 a piece there. I would like to have the pouch though, if they can assure me that the pouch and other goodies would be included in the deal (because they of course could make a number of 'groupbuys' for the entire customer base), then count me in.--[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
:: Your absolutly right on this one, been thinking about it and the possible discount we would be getting would wasted on shipping within the Netherlands again. Like you said, if there are goodies involved it's a different deal of course :) . --[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
:::So let's start negotiating with Pulster regarding the goodies. We can bring in 22 customers, so he has something to win. It might be important to know whether Pulster takes credit card payments. I cannot find that option on their webpage and an electronic banktransfer will add another 15 (?) euro.[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
<br />
:::: I'm afraid they don't accept credit cards (from their [http://www.pulster.de/engl/imprint.htm About Us page]:<br />
<br />
We do not accept any other payment option like PayPal, Reembourse/Cash-on-delivery (COD) payments, <br />
direct CreditCard payments, any kind of cheques, western union, postal money orders, cash. Please dont <br />
ask, we do not accept none of this options thanks to a very few but very expensive scams. <br />
<br />
::::: Nice double negative in there, btw. But still, 299+15 is less than 350 or 400. ;) --[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
:::::: Remember if is going to be a group sale (if pulster provides the goodies) it would be (discounted price * 22 + transfer rate + (21 * shipping within Holland)) [[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
== Canada ==<br />
==== GTA (Toronto) ====<br />
{ --[[User:Argo|Argo]] 03:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC) }<br />
For group 1 it looks like they have actually gotten the 10 orders in? or am I them adding up wrong?<br />
<br />
== Croatia ==<br />
{--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 14:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)} '''ja ne bih da već sada radimo pan-balkansku grupu, iskreno sam iznenađen odazivom do sada, pa jedino možda ako ne skupimo dovoljno ljudi do kraja ovog tjedna...'''<br />
<br />
moj post sa hr.comp.os.linux upućen mnalisu;<br />
<br />
> BTW, ti si zapravo kontaktirao HULK i rekli su ti da bi to oni isli raditi i<br />
<br />
> gnjaviti se sa svim tim, ili ih cisto spominjes onako u smislu "pa oni su<br />
<br />
> dragi ljudi, sigurno ce besplatno uloziti mjesece svog zivota u to u zamjenu<br />
<br />
> za pivu" ?<br />
<br />
Davio sam ih malo zadnja dva dana na IRCu, i prema logu načelno su za<br />
da se narudžbe hendlaju preko njih. A i mislim da se ipak ne radi o<br />
mjesecima života bačenih za pivu, more like možda 2-3 sata za gajbu<br />
ili dvije :), hell ako je toliko teško napravit ću ja sve, učlanit se<br />
u HULK ako treba<br />
<br />
ali do toga trenutka ovako ja razmišljam:<br />
<br />
1.) skupimo 10 zainteresiranih<br />
2.) ja nazovem carinu i agenciju za telekomunikacije<br />
3.) pitamo openmoko za shipping estimate<br />
4.) ako su svi i dalje za, skupljanje sredstava i na kraju narudžba<br />
<br />
dakle ništa nije obligatory, idemo step by step, onog trenutka kada se<br />
prijavi 10 ljudi na wikiju ja zovem nadležne službe, pa ćemo vidit di<br />
stojimo sa uvozom i tim''<br />
<br />
nemoj odmah "worst case scenario" :)<br />
<br />
>> mozda da se malo na elitesecurity.org pokrene rasprava?<br />
<br />
--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 10:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC) svakako, ja sam za<br />
<br />
== Czech Republic ==<br />
Distribuční seznam, základní informace naleznete v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Czech_Republic GroupSales]<br />
<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Diskuze Diskuze]<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Dopl.C5.88uj.C3.ADc.C3.AD_informace Doplňující informace]<br />
<br />
=== Diskuze ===<br />
''Martin Holec''> Máme tu 4x ze Zlína, co kdyby někdo jel do Brna pro 4ks a ve Zlíně by se rozdělili?<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> jak jsem psal, já do Zlína jezdívám, a od května do září budu ve Zlíně velmi často, takže se Zlínem není vůbec problém.<br />
<br />
Jinak už se objevily nějaké termíny. Jestli jsem to dobře pochopil, tak 9.5. by už mohla začít masová výroba a brzy na to by měl začít prodej...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak by měl vlastně vypadat? Takový ten bíly se mně moc nelíbí. Radši bych měl [http://http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:FIC-neo1973_small.jpg černý].<br />
<br />
''Michal Pěnka''> Protože jsem jedenáctý a nevím, jestli bude možné objednat 11 kusů nebo jen po desítkách, domluvím se s Tomem Vargou později (jestli by byl ochotný pro převoz do Prahy), každopádně bych také raději ten černý.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak to tak tady pročítám tak to půjde objednat za zvýhodněnou cenu (+pytlík? a headset) opravdu jenom po desítkách. Ale IMHO když této stránce zvedneme popularitu (případně přiberem Slováky) tak jich budem nakonec brát minimálně dvacet ;) Mně osobně připadá datum 9.5. hodně optimistické.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> FreeRunner bude pouze v jedné barevné variantě, a to černý. To datum 9.5. mám [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates odsud]<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>Nemáte někdo fotku freerunnera ? na wiki jsem zatím našel jenom fotky GTA1-čky<br />
<br />
''David Kozub''>> Jelikoz se vyskytuju ve Zline i v Praze, muzu zajistit prevoz do Prahy.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No tak například tady to máš dokonce na videu: http://youtube.com/watch?v=k9QLdK6pFCI ;-) Ale jinak i na wiki se povalují fotky FreeRunnera. Například hned ta první na hlavní stránce ;-)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> To video je parádní. Co se týče té fotky z úvodu wiki, myslel jsem, že je to jenom render. Jinak jak jsem tak bloudil po stránkách české pošty - nejlevněj to nejspíš vyjde poslat jako profibalík za myslím že 64korun. Za dobírku se něco ještě připlácí. Balík je pojištěný do 100 000. [http://www.cpost.cz:80/jetspeed/portal/media-type/html/user/anon/page/default.psml/js_pane/sluzbyonline%2Czasilky?docid=370&calc_lb0=10424&calc_cb0=1 více zde]<br />
<br />
ad. '''Praha (Čechy):'''<br />
<br />
''Tom Varga''>> Pokoušel jsem se vyčíst z mailing listu, jak je to s tou množstevní slevou - co jsem z toho pochopil, tak by neměl být problém objednat množství nedělitené desíti, ale ty kusy navíc jsou pak [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016432.html bez slevy] a [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016202.html bez bonusu]; pořád by se to ale vyplatilo skrze poštovné. Prozatím bych navrhl, aby se zájemci z Prahy (Čech) zapsali / potvrdili smazáním otazníku v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu], možná něco podobného pro Slovensko - momentálně to vypadá, že bude snazší sehnat 20 zájemců celkem a taky by se tím mohla situace trochu vyjasnit. Osobně jsem schopen zajistit dovoz z Brna do Prahy, Liberce, Jablonce n.N. a přilehlých končin. Případné návrhy sem ;)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>> Řekl bych že čím větší balík poletí za Ameriky sem tím levněj to vyjde. Pokud není poštovné na gramy. 20-ti zájemců se určitě dočkáme. Když počítám Františka Horínka z Bratislavy tak je nás 18. Co se týče bonusů na headsetu moc nelpím ale ten pytel by se mně vážně hodil. Často v kapse kombinuju mobil a klíče nebo šroubovák...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>> Poštovné samozřejmě není na gramy, ale na libry, neboli každých započatých 0.45 kg se platí, plus se poštovné započítává do cla, mimochodem taková zásilka asi jen tak přes celnici neprojde, takže je možné, že nikdo (příjemce) bude muset dodat na celnici případné dokumenty dokladující hodnotu zasílaného zboží.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>> Tak dle "platného" celního sazebníku by se clo nemělo platit. Viz [http://disk.jabbim.cz/ivir@jabbim.com/celni_sazebnik.pdf Sazebník] strana 568. Tedy by se hradilo pouze DPH. Aspoň si myslím, že 20 telefonů jako "dárek" asi neprojde.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>>> No tím lépe, ale tak já to beztak myslel jako celý celní dluh a to dph je právě i z poštovného.<br />
<br />
''Miloslav Machotka''> Koukám že jsem trochu zaspal dění. :) V [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu] jsem se připsal k Praze. Mám to nejblíž, jsem z Vlašimi, ale jinak jsem pro to schopen dojet i do Brna. Jsem pro to aby se to vyřešilo, pokud možno, po desítkách a pak to rozvést (rozeslat) po Čechách a Slovensku. Bonusy se asi většině lidí hodí.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>>>>> DPH musíme taky platit ?? To je mrzuté. Kolik mají DPH slováci ? nevyšlo by to levněj poslat do Bratislavy a stama ''"propašovat"'' k nám ? Když už máme ten šengen... Nevrátí nám třeba amíci DPH které za to zaplatili u nich ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>>>>> Co je mi známo, tak při obchodování mimo zemi se DPH neúčtuje a účtuje se až v cílové zemi. Dle rok starého článku na měšci je základní sazba stejná, tj. 19%. Od DPH by to šlo odprostit pouze pokud by na tom balíku bylo napsáno, že se jedná o dárek. Pak se na to daň neuplatní. Jakmile se mi povede najít ustanovení/článek, tak jsem dám odkaz.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No ono je stále ještě otázkou, odkud to vůbec budou posílat. Protože sem někde viděl informace, že se budou snažit zásobovat Evropu z nějakého centra v Evropě. O tom dárku jsem taky slyšel, ale prej to taky není zaručený způsob. Celníci se do toho můžou podívat, a uvalit na to daň podle vlastního rozhodnutí (prej). Jinak ale je tu ještě možnost, že by nám to někdo dovezl. Nevíte jak to funguje v tom případě?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>To centrum v Evropě bylo v plánu avšak levněji jim to vyjde posílání z Ameriky, takže bude k dispozici jen jedno centrum v USA. Ohledně toho dárku jsem doposud četl, že jeho částka nesmí přesáhnout 55€, jinak je normálně proclíván. Při osobním převozu jsou nastaveny limity výše viz [http://www.celnisprava.cz/CmsGrc/Cestovani-a-nakupy/Jak-se-chovat/mimo-eu.htm celní správa].<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Kdyby vezl dva tři tak by možná ukecal že je to dárek ale dvacet... clo vem čert to bude nanejvýš 3,5% což není taková pálka. Spíš kdy se to DPH z toho platí ? Hned na celnici nebo musím podat něco jako daňové přiznání ?<br />
* No tak zatím jsem zjistil že nejspíš jediná šance jak se osvobodit od cla a DPH je že všeci sedem do letadla a zajedem si pro to. Limit je 6000kč na jednu osobu starší 15-ti let.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mares''>>>> Clo se na tento druh zboží nevztahuje. Platí se pouze české DPH, který ti celníci vyměří z ''ceny zboží + doprava + clo'', pak ti v případě fyzické osoby zašlou na tvou poštu, kde uhradíš DPH jako dobírku. U podnikatele je to trošku jiné. VAT (čili americké DPH) na zboží nebude uvaleno, jelikož zboží je vyváženo z USA.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No a dá se tohle spočítat předem? Abysme mohli stanovit cenu?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> No dokud nebude jasne kolik bude stat postovne (typ + vaha) a jaky bude kurs dolaru, tak presna cena asi tezko.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>No co. Tak ti každý pošlem sedm tisíc s tím, že potom přebytky rozdělíš do obálek a budeš předávat s každým telefonem obálku. Jinak to asi dost dobře nepůjde. Jedině že by nám to sem dopravila česká pobočka FIC-u/foxconn. Ale to je podle mně nepravděpodobné.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>JJ take myslim, ze bych dal predbeznou cenu 7K s tim, ze uz je poslem, at muzes pruzne zareagovat a ne pak cekat az vsichni poslou.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>> Kdyby se zase Steve nebo někdo vyjádřil v jakém je to stavu a přidal předběžný odhad kdy se začne prodávat. Teďka je to těžko. Můžou ho vydat zítra ale taky třeba i za půl roku pokud se objeví nějaký složitý problém.<br />
Ještě k té předběžné ceně - dolar není za 15 korun ale za 16,1-16,2 korun I s DPH se do těch 7000 nespíš nevejdem. Jestli že se domluvíme žo začnem posílat peníze tak navrhuju posílat 7500. IMHO dolar už níž nepůjde.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Co jsem se zatím díval na možnosti přepravy (DHL,Fedex,UPS,USPS), tak nejvýhodněji vychází USPS ([http://www.usps.com/ usps.com]), kdy se pohybujeme kolem částky 120$ i s pojištěním (kdyby to bylo cca 10kg což pochybuji). Bohužel maximální pojištění činí 5 000$, přičemž celková částka balíku vychází na cca 7 580$ . U ostatních jsem ohledně pojištění nenašel zmínku, přičemž poštovné vycházelo většinou přes 500$. Z pohledu pojištění by bylo vhodné objednávky rozdělit. Ještě bude záležet jaké poštovní služby nabídnou v e-shopu. Včera u ČSOB byla prodejní cena dolaru na 16,44Kč/$ a musím bohužel souhlasit, že lepší to už nebude. Jinak ceník je k dispozici na této adrese [http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781 http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781] .<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Teď mně napadlo - co kdyby jsem někde založili učet (nejlépe spořící) v dolarech a poslali to tam teď ? [http://www.mesec.cz/clanky/ucet-v-cizi-mene-ano-ale-kde/] Kdyby tak člověk věděl že pozítru neoznámí prodej...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>> Tak urcite bych pockal s placenim na nejake jistejsi vyjadreni, ale necekal bych na otevreni kramu, tehdy uz by chtelo, aby se to dalo hned objednat, co se tyka uctu neverim, ze dolar spadne, ale ani ze poroste a tak bych to neresil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vzhledem k množství objednávaného zboží bych možná už využil dopravních společností, které za nás provedou celní odbavení. Aspoň metodický pokyny k vyplnění JSD (jednotný správní doklad) nejsou triviální a zabere to minimálně půlden. Ukázku dokumentu jsme nalezl zde: [http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/ http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/].<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> Dole v tom dopisu z celního úřadu se píše: "který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost" to nikdo z nás má?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >> '''[http://www.trisoft.de/en_freerunner.htm Evropský Distributor]''', ale je celkem dražší.<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Což o to, [http://www.pulster.de/ tady] je o 50 euro levnější, ale nemyslím si, že to bude ve výsledku výhodnější.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>> Co jsem se díval do pokynů, tak to může vyplnit i fyzická osoba, jelikož každý způsobilý občan může provést obchodní činnost. Pouze nesmí být opakovaného rázu, tj. jednorázové obchody. Zkusím se tedy dotázat konkrétněji na tuto část. Ohledně toho evropského distributora nevím. Odhadem to vychází přes 1000 Kč dráž bez poštovného a bez bonusů. Jestliže se nám poradí vyřešit problém s celním úřadem, tak bych spíše volil objednávku z USA. Připadá mi, že tyhle obchody to jen objednají v USA, přijmou a přepošlou s přirážkou.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >>>> Take jsem pro USA, jen sem to nasel a ac ten od Radka Machulky je uz zajimavejsi tak verim, ze se dostanem i pod nej a jeste je tam ten obal a sluchatka.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Já jsem též pro USA. Ještě by bylo možné (teoreticky) zkusit si to objednat přes nějakého (mešího) obchodníka co bere věci od FIC-u<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''> Tož sem [[GroupSales#Aktu.C3.A1ln.C4.9B|vyhlásil konkurz]] na koordinátora pražské větve a snad se najde někdo kdo je schopen se vejít do těch zásadních bodů co jsem tam nastínil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Relativně požadavky splňuji. Mám studentský ČSOB účet mající limit na 1,5M, kartu Visa Classic, angličtinu zvládám na úrovni čtení technické dokumentace, bydlím na Barrandově a jabber též mám (ivir@jabbim.com). Jen tu důvěryhodnost nemám. :) S tím clem to bude ještě zajímavé, ale snad mi ohledně toho ještě poradí z celního úřadu. V nouzi mám k dispozici i OSVČ. :)<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Dle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017531.html příspěvku] bude dovoz zboží do USA zahájen někdy 1.června. K tomu je nutné připočítat min. týden až 3 než zboží dorazí do skladů. Z příspěvku teoreticky vyplývá, že bude i evropský HUB. Snad to bude za stejnou částku a s bonusy. :)<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>Podle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017607.html příspěvku] by měl webový shop odkazovat na us i eu a to vypadá čím dál nadějnějš co se týká poštovného aj cla.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' jestli to dobře překládám tak není jasné jakým způsobem to půjde z činy - jestli lodí nebo letadlem ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Ano, aspoň takto jsem to pochopil i já. Problémem je ta doba dodání. Jinak co se týká vyřízení JSD (cla), tak u zprostředkovatele [http://www.kama-eu.cz/ KAMA s.r.o.>, jež mi doporučil celní úřad, vychází na cca 1000 Kč viz ceník, což mi připadá přijatelné.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No mně ty informace od Steva přijdou vždycky nějaké zmatené. Nevědí jestli lodí nebo letadlem, ale odejít by to snad mělo až 1.6. (nebo co má znamenat to datum, v jeho zprávě), takže to ještě docela potrvá... :-(<br />
Jan Mareš: můžeš prosím popsat co přesně má být těch 1000Kč a jak se na to přijde? Já tomu pořád nějak nerozumím...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> <font color="gray">best case is I would start to test phones around the first of june. Then<br />
pack and ship.<br />
</font>1.6. začíná testovat telefony a potm je balit a odesílat.<br><br />
<font color=gray>The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically you<br />
build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy% pass the test, and the factory says.<br />
"good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on the<br />
test software, because that bad phone really was good." arrg.</font> Ale toto nějak moc nechápu.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vychází to takto: 250 Kč (vypracování JSD), 30 Kč (vypracování hodnoty), 250 Kč (jednani za deklaranta), 30 Kč (avízo) a pak asi ručení (350). Je to můj odhad a po konkrétním dotaze by měli sdělit částku. Asi tedy bude třeba připočítat poštovné (250 Kč). Zatím jsem jim napsal dotaz ohledně nepodnikající osoby s tímto množstvím, tak jsem zvědav kdy odpoví.<br />
Tu další část považuji za povzdychnutí, kdy jim vyrobili více telefonů z nichž jen část prošla a továrna chce tohle číslo minimalizovat a že dané chyby byly spíše SW povahy.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' Podle toho co píšeš bych řekl že by vyšlo levněj kdyby jsme brali všechny telefony dohromady.Jaké má výhody osamostatnění Prahy ?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' No nedokazeme pojistit 30telefonu na jejich cenu pri doprave, ale jinak pokud by to clo vyrizovala firma asi by to bylo vyhodnejsi.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Trochu mě znepokojují zprávy v community e-mail archivu, kde uvádějí, že openmoko e-shop využívá služeb UPS. U nich by nebyl problém s pojištěním, ale ty ceny. Cena je de facto konstantní na cca 600$ (při 10kg balíčku), takže pak by bylo vhodné objednávku shrnout dohromady. Pak by to vycházelo o cca 10$ na hlavu více. Snažím se přesvědčit otce jako OSVČ, že by byla objednávka napsaná na něj a tím pádem by odpadl problém s využitím výše uvedené společnosti od nichž jsem dostal zamítavé stanovisko ohledně "neobchodní zásilky".<br />
<br />
Pak už zbývá využít evropského distributora Pulster.de . Teoreticky mi vychází částka při dovozu z US na 7600 Kč a u Pulsteru na 7 660Kč bez poštovné. Avšak za předpokladu společné hromadné objednávky. V opačném případě je nutné připočíst u US objednávky cca tisícovku (při 10 lidech).<br />
<br />
Zapomněl jsem tedy dodat, že zboží by bylo v republice za 4-5 dnů + pár dnů na vyřízení celního řízení.<br />
<br />
=== Doplňující informace ===<br />
* '''Moje komunikace s pobočkou FIC v ČR:'''<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
Taiwanský FIC v nejbližších dnech začne s prodejem mobilního telefonu<br />
Neo FreeRunner (www.openmoko.com). Chci se zeptat, jestli bude možné případné<br />
reklamace a opravy řešit u vás?<br />
<br />
Zatím není známý přesný způsob distribuce tohoto telefonu pro Evropu<br />
a Českou republiku. Nebude vaše pobočka zapojena do distribuční sítě?<br />
<br />
Děkuji za odpověď, Martin Šenkeřík<br />
Odpověď:<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
FIC CZ s.r.o. v těchto měsících přechází pod Foxconn CZ.<br />
V případě reklamace či informací se obracejte přímo na FIC TW.<br />
Kontaktní osobou na Zákaznickém oddělení je<br />
<br />
Mr. James Chang<br />
Customer Service Department<br />
Te.: +886 2 8751 8751 ext.6196<br />
James_chang@fic.com.tw<br />
<br />
S pozdravem<br />
<br />
Jarka Ripplova<br />
<br />
* '''Dotaz na celní úřad ohledně zpracování zásilky:'''<br />
Věc: Informace<br />
<br />
K Vaší žádosti o informaci týkající se hromadného dovozu zásilky pro osobní<br />
potřebu více příjemců Vám sdělujeme:<br />
<br />
Za zásilku zboží neobchodní povahy se ve smyslu celních předpisů považují<br />
zásilky, které jsou dováženy příležitostně a které obsahují výhradně zboží<br />
určené k osobnímu užití příjemců nebo jejich rodin, přičemž toto zboží nesmí<br />
povahou ani množstvím svědčit o obchodním úmyslu dovozce. Z uvedeného<br />
vyplývá, že tzv. sběrná zásilka nemůže být považována za zásilku zboží<br />
neobchodní povahy, i když obsah je určen pro osobní potřebu soukromých osob.<br />
Při dovozu zásilky obchodní povahy je zásilka zadržena při vstupu na celní<br />
území EU a příjemce vyzván k předložení celního prohlášení. Celní formality<br />
uskutečňuje příjemce, který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost.<br />
<br />
Pro zboží zařazené v některé z podpoložek čísla 8517 je celním sazebníkem EU<br />
stanovena sazba cla 0 %. Při dovozu zásilky zboží obchodního charakteru<br />
celní orgány posuzují, zda zboží nepodléhá zvláštnímu řízení podle zákona č.<br />
38/1994 Sb., o zahraničním obchodu s vojenským materiálem. Vedle cla se při<br />
propuštění dovezeného zboží do volného oběhu v tuzemsku vyměřuje DPH v<br />
základní sazbě 19 %. Základem pro vyměření DPH je cena, za kterou bylo zboží<br />
prodáno do EU, ke které se přičtou náklady na dopravu zásilky do EU, podle<br />
příslušných ustanovení zákona o DPH.<br />
<br />
Celní dluh, jehož součástí je i DPH, se vyměří v českých korunách z celní<br />
hodnoty převedené na české koruny v kurzu platném pro příslušné období.<br />
Aktuální kurzy měn jsou uveřejněny na stránkách Celní správy České republiky<br />
www.cs.mfcr.cz cestou Servis - Kurzovní lístky.</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Group_salesTalk:Group sales2008-05-28T22:21:30Z<p>Mivaho: /* The Netherlands */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
== England ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}<br />
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?<br />
<br />
:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.<br />
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
::Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====<br />
<br />
I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?<br />
<br />
I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?<br />
<br />
In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(<br />
<br />
:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] - [mailto:stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk let me know] if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
<br />
Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)<br />
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.<br />
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but<br />
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}<br />
<br />
<br />
Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php<br />
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen<br />
<br />
Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van <br />
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd <br />
zou willen zien worden.<br />
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie <br />
over het te leveren artikel.<br />
<br />
Uw naam J. de Haan<br />
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
Artikelinformatie<br />
Merk openmoko<br />
Naam freerunner<br />
Website openmoko.com<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen <br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor <br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail <br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
E-mailcontact - verzonden<br />
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.<br />
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)<br />
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not<br />
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out <br />
on Utrecht CS :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)<br />
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? <br /><br />
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1." <br />
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.<br />
<br />
{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will have 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Belgium Belgium]. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.<br />
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:<br />
<br />
Geachte heer,<br />
<br />
Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
<br />
Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx<br />
Product Management / Technical Support<br />
<br />
Salland Automatisering<br />
<br />
Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post. <br /><br />
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.<br />
from Jan de Haan <haan.j.de@gmail.com><br />
to inkoop@azerty.nl,<br />
date Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM<br />
subject Openmoko - Freerunner<br />
mailed-by gmail.com<br />
<br />
hide details 8:52 PM (0 minutes ago)<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen<br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor<br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
Een importeur schijnt trisoft.de te zijn. Let wel: dit product is<br />
nog niet op de markt,<br />
al zijn de laatste test productie runs klaar.<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail<br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken. <br /><br />
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):<br />
<br />
=== Votes for a reseller ===<br />
{|border=1<br />
!Name<br />
!Trisoft<br />
!Open Source Nieuws Nederland<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (Subject to a solution for warranty)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[Special:Emailuser/User:PWerken|Peter van de Werken]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (note: I'll buy 2 Freerunners)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (If warranty is OK)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|'''Total'''<br />
|<br />
|10<br />
|}<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:<br />
Beste Yorick,<br />
<br />
Bedankt voor je mail en informatie; ik kende de toestellen niet, maar zou ze<br />
best eens van dichtbij willen bekijken. Het 'developer' model lijkt me dan<br />
echter weer minder interessant voor ons; het 'consumer' model zou eind 2008<br />
op de markt moeten komen?<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
With kind regards,<br />
<br />
Michael Brus<br />
Manager PDAshop<br />
<br />
<br />
Coolblue<br />
Molenbaan 11 . 2908 LL Capelle a/d IJssel . www.coolblue.nl<br />
<br />
Coolblue is...<br />
MP3shop.nl . PDAshop.nl . Digicamshop.nl . GPSshop.nl .<br />
Smartphoneshop.nl . Consoleshop.nl . Telefoonshop.nl . meer...<br />
<br />
Should I forward this to Michael Shiloh?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 07/05} I'll vote to wait until there are actually phones shipping, until that time, the more people we gather here, and maybe other dealers, the better the deal we get(I hope).<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 08/05} <br />
Well, I want to have the phone as soon as possible. The best deal ever isn't my main concern.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 13/05}<br />
I've been browsing the mailing list, and found [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/016971.html this post] from Openmoko's Steve. Group sales have 28 days of DOA (Dead On Arrival) coverage, and single sales have 14 days of DOA coverage. Which I think is reasonable. BTW, I don't think there will be a better deal than the $369 per phone for the 10-pack. <br /><br />
We currently have enough people to fill 2 10-packs, which is awesome! <br /><br />
What we do need to figure out are the import costs, and the shipping costs. (it's shipped via UPS, if I recall correctly from the mailing list.)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 22/05}<br />
<br />
I wouldn't be too sure that this is financially going to be the best deal. This message in the community mailing list (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017668.html) shows interesting info regarding Pulster.<br />
----<br />
''Christph Pulster wrote:<br />
''> about 10 pack orders - we try to be cheaper than the 10-order-<br />
''> pack-price ! so no need to collect ten local buyers.<br />
<br />
''This sounds so good...! I'm waiting for official news (and maybe infos<br />
about the gifts too)...''<br />
----<br />
'''I checked their webpage and they advertise with OpenMoko Freerunner 299 eur'''<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 22/05} I checked their website too and it says 'Sobald der Freerunner wirklich lieferbar ist, ist er an dieser Stelle mit konkretem Preis zu finden und real bestellbar.' Which could mean that the price will be something other than 299 euro.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I like the pulster deal a lot, even if they are the same price as buying the 10 pack in the US the warranty part is a lot better seeing Germany is next door to us. Only thing is that you would mis out on the pouch and headset, dunno if that's such a great loss. And they say they will be going under the price of the US 10 pack order if you order the 10 from them. So maybe a vote on yes or no to the pouch/headset deal? Maybe we should check if with Pulster a group order of 10+ will always give the discount. Like 22 will get the same discount and that we are not forced in getting groups of ten people.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I wrote an e-mail to pulster with the questions so I will post the answer here when I get one.<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 24/05} <br />
The pouch and headset are not that important IMO. I guess most join the group sale for convenience and reduce cost. But maybe I'm wrong.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
<br />
'''From the community mailing list again:<br />
<br />
'''Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote [to Pulster - Ed.]:<br />
''>> 1. Do you know when you'll be approximately able to define a price?<br />
''>> 2. The Freerunner will be shipped with extra goodies (generally<br />
''>> given only to people buying a 10-pack (ie: pouch and headset)?<br />
''> <br />
<br />
'''From Pulster [Ed.]<br />
<br />
''> Price fix ASAP I have the units in own hands/stocks.<br />
''> 299-319 eur is really realistic.<br />
''> <br />
''> All goodies included at PULSTER !<br />
''> <br />
''> Also can be bought a lot accessories extra very soon (debug board, pens, <br />
''> cases etc)<br />
''> <br />
''> you see, I will make all your wishes true :)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/05} Yeah, read that message in the weekend, no reply to my mail at this moment but seeing this message straight from pulster I would say that we should buy directly from pulster as a group. Warranty wise it's better as well.<br />
<br />
399 U.S. dollars is about 253 Euros and including VAT that would become 301.07 Euro so pulster with their price being 299 Euro (see below) has a good price and for 10 and more there is a discount just like in the US. I would propose to take the dutch group sale to Pulster.<br />
<br />
The following mail from Chis Pulster was on the list also.<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
I am Chris from pulster.eu - my hello to this great community.<br />
<br />
May I add some points from my side:<br />
<br />
- Freerunner - ready to order ASAP it is available. We do not<br />
take pre-orders of items we dont have in hands. For a one-time info- <br />
mail once the Freerunner is ready to order, please just email me <br />
mailto: christoph@pulster.de<br />
- we aim a Freerunner price tag of 299 EUR incl. VAT<br />
- shipping worldwide with DHL, Europa 15 EUR, World 30 EUR postage<br />
- soon we offer accessories for Freerunner like spare batterie, charger, <br />
Headset, pouch and also the debug-board<br />
- group-sales make local communities, that is wonderful. I am happy to <br />
sell Freerunner separately or in packages.<br />
<br />
Many thanks,<br />
Chris<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
Indeed let's take the dutch group sale to Pulster. We are with 22 so we should be able to make a good deal regarding the goodies. And in that way no-one has to take any financial risk.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 28/05} My guess is, that for a group buy at pulster there is still one entity needed for buying the devices. The thing is that with pulster, as with the US deal, the waranty should be per person and not named for the buying entity.<br />
<br />
:I don't think that we need to do the 'group buy' at Pulster. You can just buy the device at 299 a piece there. I would like to have the pouch though, if they can assure me that the pouch and other goodies would be included in the deal (because they of course could make a number of 'groupbuys' for the entire customer base), then count me in.--[[User:Madjo|MadJo]]<br />
<br />
:: Your absolutly right on this one, been thinking about it and the possible discount we would be getting would wasted on shipping within the Netherlands again. Like you said, if there are goodies involved it's a different deal of course :) . --[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]]<br />
<br />
== Canada ==<br />
==== GTA (Toronto) ====<br />
{ --[[User:Argo|Argo]] 03:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC) }<br />
For group 1 it looks like they have actually gotten the 10 orders in? or am I them adding up wrong?<br />
<br />
== Croatia ==<br />
{--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 14:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)} '''ja ne bih da već sada radimo pan-balkansku grupu, iskreno sam iznenađen odazivom do sada, pa jedino možda ako ne skupimo dovoljno ljudi do kraja ovog tjedna...'''<br />
<br />
moj post sa hr.comp.os.linux upućen mnalisu;<br />
<br />
> BTW, ti si zapravo kontaktirao HULK i rekli su ti da bi to oni isli raditi i<br />
<br />
> gnjaviti se sa svim tim, ili ih cisto spominjes onako u smislu "pa oni su<br />
<br />
> dragi ljudi, sigurno ce besplatno uloziti mjesece svog zivota u to u zamjenu<br />
<br />
> za pivu" ?<br />
<br />
Davio sam ih malo zadnja dva dana na IRCu, i prema logu načelno su za<br />
da se narudžbe hendlaju preko njih. A i mislim da se ipak ne radi o<br />
mjesecima života bačenih za pivu, more like možda 2-3 sata za gajbu<br />
ili dvije :), hell ako je toliko teško napravit ću ja sve, učlanit se<br />
u HULK ako treba<br />
<br />
ali do toga trenutka ovako ja razmišljam:<br />
<br />
1.) skupimo 10 zainteresiranih<br />
2.) ja nazovem carinu i agenciju za telekomunikacije<br />
3.) pitamo openmoko za shipping estimate<br />
4.) ako su svi i dalje za, skupljanje sredstava i na kraju narudžba<br />
<br />
dakle ništa nije obligatory, idemo step by step, onog trenutka kada se<br />
prijavi 10 ljudi na wikiju ja zovem nadležne službe, pa ćemo vidit di<br />
stojimo sa uvozom i tim''<br />
<br />
nemoj odmah "worst case scenario" :)<br />
<br />
>> mozda da se malo na elitesecurity.org pokrene rasprava?<br />
<br />
--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 10:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC) svakako, ja sam za<br />
<br />
== Czech Republic ==<br />
Distribuční seznam, základní informace naleznete v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Czech_Republic GroupSales]<br />
<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Diskuze Diskuze]<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Dopl.C5.88uj.C3.ADc.C3.AD_informace Doplňující informace]<br />
<br />
=== Diskuze ===<br />
''Martin Holec''> Máme tu 4x ze Zlína, co kdyby někdo jel do Brna pro 4ks a ve Zlíně by se rozdělili?<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> jak jsem psal, já do Zlína jezdívám, a od května do září budu ve Zlíně velmi často, takže se Zlínem není vůbec problém.<br />
<br />
Jinak už se objevily nějaké termíny. Jestli jsem to dobře pochopil, tak 9.5. by už mohla začít masová výroba a brzy na to by měl začít prodej...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak by měl vlastně vypadat? Takový ten bíly se mně moc nelíbí. Radši bych měl [http://http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:FIC-neo1973_small.jpg černý].<br />
<br />
''Michal Pěnka''> Protože jsem jedenáctý a nevím, jestli bude možné objednat 11 kusů nebo jen po desítkách, domluvím se s Tomem Vargou později (jestli by byl ochotný pro převoz do Prahy), každopádně bych také raději ten černý.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak to tak tady pročítám tak to půjde objednat za zvýhodněnou cenu (+pytlík? a headset) opravdu jenom po desítkách. Ale IMHO když této stránce zvedneme popularitu (případně přiberem Slováky) tak jich budem nakonec brát minimálně dvacet ;) Mně osobně připadá datum 9.5. hodně optimistické.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> FreeRunner bude pouze v jedné barevné variantě, a to černý. To datum 9.5. mám [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates odsud]<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>Nemáte někdo fotku freerunnera ? na wiki jsem zatím našel jenom fotky GTA1-čky<br />
<br />
''David Kozub''>> Jelikoz se vyskytuju ve Zline i v Praze, muzu zajistit prevoz do Prahy.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No tak například tady to máš dokonce na videu: http://youtube.com/watch?v=k9QLdK6pFCI ;-) Ale jinak i na wiki se povalují fotky FreeRunnera. Například hned ta první na hlavní stránce ;-)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> To video je parádní. Co se týče té fotky z úvodu wiki, myslel jsem, že je to jenom render. Jinak jak jsem tak bloudil po stránkách české pošty - nejlevněj to nejspíš vyjde poslat jako profibalík za myslím že 64korun. Za dobírku se něco ještě připlácí. Balík je pojištěný do 100 000. [http://www.cpost.cz:80/jetspeed/portal/media-type/html/user/anon/page/default.psml/js_pane/sluzbyonline%2Czasilky?docid=370&calc_lb0=10424&calc_cb0=1 více zde]<br />
<br />
ad. '''Praha (Čechy):'''<br />
<br />
''Tom Varga''>> Pokoušel jsem se vyčíst z mailing listu, jak je to s tou množstevní slevou - co jsem z toho pochopil, tak by neměl být problém objednat množství nedělitené desíti, ale ty kusy navíc jsou pak [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016432.html bez slevy] a [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016202.html bez bonusu]; pořád by se to ale vyplatilo skrze poštovné. Prozatím bych navrhl, aby se zájemci z Prahy (Čech) zapsali / potvrdili smazáním otazníku v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu], možná něco podobného pro Slovensko - momentálně to vypadá, že bude snazší sehnat 20 zájemců celkem a taky by se tím mohla situace trochu vyjasnit. Osobně jsem schopen zajistit dovoz z Brna do Prahy, Liberce, Jablonce n.N. a přilehlých končin. Případné návrhy sem ;)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>> Řekl bych že čím větší balík poletí za Ameriky sem tím levněj to vyjde. Pokud není poštovné na gramy. 20-ti zájemců se určitě dočkáme. Když počítám Františka Horínka z Bratislavy tak je nás 18. Co se týče bonusů na headsetu moc nelpím ale ten pytel by se mně vážně hodil. Často v kapse kombinuju mobil a klíče nebo šroubovák...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>> Poštovné samozřejmě není na gramy, ale na libry, neboli každých započatých 0.45 kg se platí, plus se poštovné započítává do cla, mimochodem taková zásilka asi jen tak přes celnici neprojde, takže je možné, že nikdo (příjemce) bude muset dodat na celnici případné dokumenty dokladující hodnotu zasílaného zboží.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>> Tak dle "platného" celního sazebníku by se clo nemělo platit. Viz [http://disk.jabbim.cz/ivir@jabbim.com/celni_sazebnik.pdf Sazebník] strana 568. Tedy by se hradilo pouze DPH. Aspoň si myslím, že 20 telefonů jako "dárek" asi neprojde.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>>> No tím lépe, ale tak já to beztak myslel jako celý celní dluh a to dph je právě i z poštovného.<br />
<br />
''Miloslav Machotka''> Koukám že jsem trochu zaspal dění. :) V [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu] jsem se připsal k Praze. Mám to nejblíž, jsem z Vlašimi, ale jinak jsem pro to schopen dojet i do Brna. Jsem pro to aby se to vyřešilo, pokud možno, po desítkách a pak to rozvést (rozeslat) po Čechách a Slovensku. Bonusy se asi většině lidí hodí.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>>>>> DPH musíme taky platit ?? To je mrzuté. Kolik mají DPH slováci ? nevyšlo by to levněj poslat do Bratislavy a stama ''"propašovat"'' k nám ? Když už máme ten šengen... Nevrátí nám třeba amíci DPH které za to zaplatili u nich ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>>>>> Co je mi známo, tak při obchodování mimo zemi se DPH neúčtuje a účtuje se až v cílové zemi. Dle rok starého článku na měšci je základní sazba stejná, tj. 19%. Od DPH by to šlo odprostit pouze pokud by na tom balíku bylo napsáno, že se jedná o dárek. Pak se na to daň neuplatní. Jakmile se mi povede najít ustanovení/článek, tak jsem dám odkaz.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No ono je stále ještě otázkou, odkud to vůbec budou posílat. Protože sem někde viděl informace, že se budou snažit zásobovat Evropu z nějakého centra v Evropě. O tom dárku jsem taky slyšel, ale prej to taky není zaručený způsob. Celníci se do toho můžou podívat, a uvalit na to daň podle vlastního rozhodnutí (prej). Jinak ale je tu ještě možnost, že by nám to někdo dovezl. Nevíte jak to funguje v tom případě?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>To centrum v Evropě bylo v plánu avšak levněji jim to vyjde posílání z Ameriky, takže bude k dispozici jen jedno centrum v USA. Ohledně toho dárku jsem doposud četl, že jeho částka nesmí přesáhnout 55€, jinak je normálně proclíván. Při osobním převozu jsou nastaveny limity výše viz [http://www.celnisprava.cz/CmsGrc/Cestovani-a-nakupy/Jak-se-chovat/mimo-eu.htm celní správa].<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Kdyby vezl dva tři tak by možná ukecal že je to dárek ale dvacet... clo vem čert to bude nanejvýš 3,5% což není taková pálka. Spíš kdy se to DPH z toho platí ? Hned na celnici nebo musím podat něco jako daňové přiznání ?<br />
* No tak zatím jsem zjistil že nejspíš jediná šance jak se osvobodit od cla a DPH je že všeci sedem do letadla a zajedem si pro to. Limit je 6000kč na jednu osobu starší 15-ti let.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mares''>>>> Clo se na tento druh zboží nevztahuje. Platí se pouze české DPH, který ti celníci vyměří z ''ceny zboží + doprava + clo'', pak ti v případě fyzické osoby zašlou na tvou poštu, kde uhradíš DPH jako dobírku. U podnikatele je to trošku jiné. VAT (čili americké DPH) na zboží nebude uvaleno, jelikož zboží je vyváženo z USA.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No a dá se tohle spočítat předem? Abysme mohli stanovit cenu?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> No dokud nebude jasne kolik bude stat postovne (typ + vaha) a jaky bude kurs dolaru, tak presna cena asi tezko.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>No co. Tak ti každý pošlem sedm tisíc s tím, že potom přebytky rozdělíš do obálek a budeš předávat s každým telefonem obálku. Jinak to asi dost dobře nepůjde. Jedině že by nám to sem dopravila česká pobočka FIC-u/foxconn. Ale to je podle mně nepravděpodobné.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>JJ take myslim, ze bych dal predbeznou cenu 7K s tim, ze uz je poslem, at muzes pruzne zareagovat a ne pak cekat az vsichni poslou.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>> Kdyby se zase Steve nebo někdo vyjádřil v jakém je to stavu a přidal předběžný odhad kdy se začne prodávat. Teďka je to těžko. Můžou ho vydat zítra ale taky třeba i za půl roku pokud se objeví nějaký složitý problém.<br />
Ještě k té předběžné ceně - dolar není za 15 korun ale za 16,1-16,2 korun I s DPH se do těch 7000 nespíš nevejdem. Jestli že se domluvíme žo začnem posílat peníze tak navrhuju posílat 7500. IMHO dolar už níž nepůjde.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Co jsem se zatím díval na možnosti přepravy (DHL,Fedex,UPS,USPS), tak nejvýhodněji vychází USPS ([http://www.usps.com/ usps.com]), kdy se pohybujeme kolem částky 120$ i s pojištěním (kdyby to bylo cca 10kg což pochybuji). Bohužel maximální pojištění činí 5 000$, přičemž celková částka balíku vychází na cca 7 580$ . U ostatních jsem ohledně pojištění nenašel zmínku, přičemž poštovné vycházelo většinou přes 500$. Z pohledu pojištění by bylo vhodné objednávky rozdělit. Ještě bude záležet jaké poštovní služby nabídnou v e-shopu. Včera u ČSOB byla prodejní cena dolaru na 16,44Kč/$ a musím bohužel souhlasit, že lepší to už nebude. Jinak ceník je k dispozici na této adrese [http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781 http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781] .<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Teď mně napadlo - co kdyby jsem někde založili učet (nejlépe spořící) v dolarech a poslali to tam teď ? [http://www.mesec.cz/clanky/ucet-v-cizi-mene-ano-ale-kde/] Kdyby tak člověk věděl že pozítru neoznámí prodej...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>> Tak urcite bych pockal s placenim na nejake jistejsi vyjadreni, ale necekal bych na otevreni kramu, tehdy uz by chtelo, aby se to dalo hned objednat, co se tyka uctu neverim, ze dolar spadne, ale ani ze poroste a tak bych to neresil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vzhledem k množství objednávaného zboží bych možná už využil dopravních společností, které za nás provedou celní odbavení. Aspoň metodický pokyny k vyplnění JSD (jednotný správní doklad) nejsou triviální a zabere to minimálně půlden. Ukázku dokumentu jsme nalezl zde: [http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/ http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/].<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> Dole v tom dopisu z celního úřadu se píše: "který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost" to nikdo z nás má?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >> '''[http://www.trisoft.de/en_freerunner.htm Evropský Distributor]''', ale je celkem dražší.<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Což o to, [http://www.pulster.de/ tady] je o 50 euro levnější, ale nemyslím si, že to bude ve výsledku výhodnější.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>> Co jsem se díval do pokynů, tak to může vyplnit i fyzická osoba, jelikož každý způsobilý občan může provést obchodní činnost. Pouze nesmí být opakovaného rázu, tj. jednorázové obchody. Zkusím se tedy dotázat konkrétněji na tuto část. Ohledně toho evropského distributora nevím. Odhadem to vychází přes 1000 Kč dráž bez poštovného a bez bonusů. Jestliže se nám poradí vyřešit problém s celním úřadem, tak bych spíše volil objednávku z USA. Připadá mi, že tyhle obchody to jen objednají v USA, přijmou a přepošlou s přirážkou.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >>>> Take jsem pro USA, jen sem to nasel a ac ten od Radka Machulky je uz zajimavejsi tak verim, ze se dostanem i pod nej a jeste je tam ten obal a sluchatka.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Já jsem též pro USA. Ještě by bylo možné (teoreticky) zkusit si to objednat přes nějakého (mešího) obchodníka co bere věci od FIC-u<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''> Tož sem [[GroupSales#Aktu.C3.A1ln.C4.9B|vyhlásil konkurz]] na koordinátora pražské větve a snad se najde někdo kdo je schopen se vejít do těch zásadních bodů co jsem tam nastínil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Relativně požadavky splňuji. Mám studentský ČSOB účet mající limit na 1,5M, kartu Visa Classic, angličtinu zvládám na úrovni čtení technické dokumentace, bydlím na Barrandově a jabber též mám (ivir@jabbim.com). Jen tu důvěryhodnost nemám. :) S tím clem to bude ještě zajímavé, ale snad mi ohledně toho ještě poradí z celního úřadu. V nouzi mám k dispozici i OSVČ. :)<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Dle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017531.html příspěvku] bude dovoz zboží do USA zahájen někdy 1.června. K tomu je nutné připočítat min. týden až 3 než zboží dorazí do skladů. Z příspěvku teoreticky vyplývá, že bude i evropský HUB. Snad to bude za stejnou částku a s bonusy. :)<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>Podle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017607.html příspěvku] by měl webový shop odkazovat na us i eu a to vypadá čím dál nadějnějš co se týká poštovného aj cla.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' jestli to dobře překládám tak není jasné jakým způsobem to půjde z činy - jestli lodí nebo letadlem ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Ano, aspoň takto jsem to pochopil i já. Problémem je ta doba dodání. Jinak co se týká vyřízení JSD (cla), tak u zprostředkovatele [http://www.kama-eu.cz/ KAMA s.r.o.>, jež mi doporučil celní úřad, vychází na cca 1000 Kč viz ceník, což mi připadá přijatelné.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No mně ty informace od Steva přijdou vždycky nějaké zmatené. Nevědí jestli lodí nebo letadlem, ale odejít by to snad mělo až 1.6. (nebo co má znamenat to datum, v jeho zprávě), takže to ještě docela potrvá... :-(<br />
Jan Mareš: můžeš prosím popsat co přesně má být těch 1000Kč a jak se na to přijde? Já tomu pořád nějak nerozumím...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> <font color="gray">best case is I would start to test phones around the first of june. Then<br />
pack and ship.<br />
</font>1.6. začíná testovat telefony a potm je balit a odesílat.<br><br />
<font color=gray>The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically you<br />
build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy% pass the test, and the factory says.<br />
"good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on the<br />
test software, because that bad phone really was good." arrg.</font> Ale toto nějak moc nechápu.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vychází to takto: 250 Kč (vypracování JSD), 30 Kč (vypracování hodnoty), 250 Kč (jednani za deklaranta), 30 Kč (avízo) a pak asi ručení (350). Je to můj odhad a po konkrétním dotaze by měli sdělit částku. Asi tedy bude třeba připočítat poštovné (250 Kč). Zatím jsem jim napsal dotaz ohledně nepodnikající osoby s tímto množstvím, tak jsem zvědav kdy odpoví.<br />
Tu další část považuji za povzdychnutí, kdy jim vyrobili více telefonů z nichž jen část prošla a továrna chce tohle číslo minimalizovat a že dané chyby byly spíše SW povahy.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' Podle toho co píšeš bych řekl že by vyšlo levněj kdyby jsme brali všechny telefony dohromady.Jaké má výhody osamostatnění Prahy ?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' No nedokazeme pojistit 30telefonu na jejich cenu pri doprave, ale jinak pokud by to clo vyrizovala firma asi by to bylo vyhodnejsi.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Trochu mě znepokojují zprávy v community e-mail archivu, kde uvádějí, že openmoko e-shop využívá služeb UPS. U nich by nebyl problém s pojištěním, ale ty ceny. Cena je de facto konstantní na cca 600$ (při 10kg balíčku), takže pak by bylo vhodné objednávku shrnout dohromady. Pak by to vycházelo o cca 10$ na hlavu více. Snažím se přesvědčit otce jako OSVČ, že by byla objednávka napsaná na něj a tím pádem by odpadl problém s využitím výše uvedené společnosti od nichž jsem dostal zamítavé stanovisko ohledně "neobchodní zásilky".<br />
<br />
Pak už zbývá využít evropského distributora Pulster.de . Teoreticky mi vychází částka při dovozu z US na 7600 Kč a u Pulsteru na 7 660Kč bez poštovné. Avšak za předpokladu společné hromadné objednávky. V opačném případě je nutné připočíst u US objednávky cca tisícovku (při 10 lidech).<br />
<br />
Zapomněl jsem tedy dodat, že zboží by bylo v republice za 4-5 dnů + pár dnů na vyřízení celního řízení.<br />
<br />
=== Doplňující informace ===<br />
* '''Moje komunikace s pobočkou FIC v ČR:'''<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
Taiwanský FIC v nejbližších dnech začne s prodejem mobilního telefonu<br />
Neo FreeRunner (www.openmoko.com). Chci se zeptat, jestli bude možné případné<br />
reklamace a opravy řešit u vás?<br />
<br />
Zatím není známý přesný způsob distribuce tohoto telefonu pro Evropu<br />
a Českou republiku. Nebude vaše pobočka zapojena do distribuční sítě?<br />
<br />
Děkuji za odpověď, Martin Šenkeřík<br />
Odpověď:<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
FIC CZ s.r.o. v těchto měsících přechází pod Foxconn CZ.<br />
V případě reklamace či informací se obracejte přímo na FIC TW.<br />
Kontaktní osobou na Zákaznickém oddělení je<br />
<br />
Mr. James Chang<br />
Customer Service Department<br />
Te.: +886 2 8751 8751 ext.6196<br />
James_chang@fic.com.tw<br />
<br />
S pozdravem<br />
<br />
Jarka Ripplova<br />
<br />
* '''Dotaz na celní úřad ohledně zpracování zásilky:'''<br />
Věc: Informace<br />
<br />
K Vaší žádosti o informaci týkající se hromadného dovozu zásilky pro osobní<br />
potřebu více příjemců Vám sdělujeme:<br />
<br />
Za zásilku zboží neobchodní povahy se ve smyslu celních předpisů považují<br />
zásilky, které jsou dováženy příležitostně a které obsahují výhradně zboží<br />
určené k osobnímu užití příjemců nebo jejich rodin, přičemž toto zboží nesmí<br />
povahou ani množstvím svědčit o obchodním úmyslu dovozce. Z uvedeného<br />
vyplývá, že tzv. sběrná zásilka nemůže být považována za zásilku zboží<br />
neobchodní povahy, i když obsah je určen pro osobní potřebu soukromých osob.<br />
Při dovozu zásilky obchodní povahy je zásilka zadržena při vstupu na celní<br />
území EU a příjemce vyzván k předložení celního prohlášení. Celní formality<br />
uskutečňuje příjemce, který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost.<br />
<br />
Pro zboží zařazené v některé z podpoložek čísla 8517 je celním sazebníkem EU<br />
stanovena sazba cla 0 %. Při dovozu zásilky zboží obchodního charakteru<br />
celní orgány posuzují, zda zboží nepodléhá zvláštnímu řízení podle zákona č.<br />
38/1994 Sb., o zahraničním obchodu s vojenským materiálem. Vedle cla se při<br />
propuštění dovezeného zboží do volného oběhu v tuzemsku vyměřuje DPH v<br />
základní sazbě 19 %. Základem pro vyměření DPH je cena, za kterou bylo zboží<br />
prodáno do EU, ke které se přičtou náklady na dopravu zásilky do EU, podle<br />
příslušných ustanovení zákona o DPH.<br />
<br />
Celní dluh, jehož součástí je i DPH, se vyměří v českých korunách z celní<br />
hodnoty převedené na české koruny v kurzu platném pro příslušné období.<br />
Aktuální kurzy měn jsou uveřejněny na stránkách Celní správy České republiky<br />
www.cs.mfcr.cz cestou Servis - Kurzovní lístky.</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Group_salesTalk:Group sales2008-05-28T12:15:24Z<p>Mivaho: /* The Netherlands */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
== England ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}<br />
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?<br />
<br />
:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.<br />
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
::Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====<br />
<br />
I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?<br />
<br />
I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?<br />
<br />
In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(<br />
<br />
:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] - [mailto:stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk let me know] if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
<br />
Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)<br />
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.<br />
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but<br />
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}<br />
<br />
<br />
Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php<br />
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen<br />
<br />
Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van <br />
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd <br />
zou willen zien worden.<br />
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie <br />
over het te leveren artikel.<br />
<br />
Uw naam J. de Haan<br />
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
Artikelinformatie<br />
Merk openmoko<br />
Naam freerunner<br />
Website openmoko.com<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen <br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor <br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail <br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
E-mailcontact - verzonden<br />
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.<br />
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)<br />
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not<br />
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out <br />
on Utrecht CS :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)<br />
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? <br /><br />
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1." <br />
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.<br />
<br />
{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will have 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Belgium Belgium]. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.<br />
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:<br />
<br />
Geachte heer,<br />
<br />
Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
<br />
Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx<br />
Product Management / Technical Support<br />
<br />
Salland Automatisering<br />
<br />
Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post. <br /><br />
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.<br />
from Jan de Haan <haan.j.de@gmail.com><br />
to inkoop@azerty.nl,<br />
date Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM<br />
subject Openmoko - Freerunner<br />
mailed-by gmail.com<br />
<br />
hide details 8:52 PM (0 minutes ago)<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen<br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor<br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
Een importeur schijnt trisoft.de te zijn. Let wel: dit product is<br />
nog niet op de markt,<br />
al zijn de laatste test productie runs klaar.<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail<br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken. <br /><br />
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):<br />
<br />
=== Votes for a reseller ===<br />
{|border=1<br />
!Name<br />
!Trisoft<br />
!Open Source Nieuws Nederland<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (Subject to a solution for warranty)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[Special:Emailuser/User:PWerken|Peter van de Werken]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (note: I'll buy 2 Freerunners)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (If warranty is OK)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|'''Total'''<br />
|<br />
|10<br />
|}<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:<br />
Beste Yorick,<br />
<br />
Bedankt voor je mail en informatie; ik kende de toestellen niet, maar zou ze<br />
best eens van dichtbij willen bekijken. Het 'developer' model lijkt me dan<br />
echter weer minder interessant voor ons; het 'consumer' model zou eind 2008<br />
op de markt moeten komen?<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
With kind regards,<br />
<br />
Michael Brus<br />
Manager PDAshop<br />
<br />
<br />
Coolblue<br />
Molenbaan 11 . 2908 LL Capelle a/d IJssel . www.coolblue.nl<br />
<br />
Coolblue is...<br />
MP3shop.nl . PDAshop.nl . Digicamshop.nl . GPSshop.nl .<br />
Smartphoneshop.nl . Consoleshop.nl . Telefoonshop.nl . meer...<br />
<br />
Should I forward this to Michael Shiloh?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 07/05} I'll vote to wait until there are actually phones shipping, until that time, the more people we gather here, and maybe other dealers, the better the deal we get(I hope).<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 08/05} <br />
Well, I want to have the phone as soon as possible. The best deal ever isn't my main concern.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 13/05}<br />
I've been browsing the mailing list, and found [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/016971.html this post] from Openmoko's Steve. Group sales have 28 days of DOA (Dead On Arrival) coverage, and single sales have 14 days of DOA coverage. Which I think is reasonable. BTW, I don't think there will be a better deal than the $369 per phone for the 10-pack. <br /><br />
We currently have enough people to fill 2 10-packs, which is awesome! <br /><br />
What we do need to figure out are the import costs, and the shipping costs. (it's shipped via UPS, if I recall correctly from the mailing list.)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 22/05}<br />
<br />
I wouldn't be too sure that this is financially going to be the best deal. This message in the community mailing list (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017668.html) shows interesting info regarding Pulster.<br />
----<br />
''Christph Pulster wrote:<br />
''> about 10 pack orders - we try to be cheaper than the 10-order-<br />
''> pack-price ! so no need to collect ten local buyers.<br />
<br />
''This sounds so good...! I'm waiting for official news (and maybe infos<br />
about the gifts too)...''<br />
----<br />
'''I checked their webpage and they advertise with OpenMoko Freerunner 299 eur'''<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 22/05} I checked their website too and it says 'Sobald der Freerunner wirklich lieferbar ist, ist er an dieser Stelle mit konkretem Preis zu finden und real bestellbar.' Which could mean that the price will be something other than 299 euro.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I like the pulster deal a lot, even if they are the same price as buying the 10 pack in the US the warranty part is a lot better seeing Germany is next door to us. Only thing is that you would mis out on the pouch and headset, dunno if that's such a great loss. And they say they will be going under the price of the US 10 pack order if you order the 10 from them. So maybe a vote on yes or no to the pouch/headset deal? Maybe we should check if with Pulster a group order of 10+ will always give the discount. Like 22 will get the same discount and that we are not forced in getting groups of ten people.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I wrote an e-mail to pulster with the questions so I will post the answer here when I get one.<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 24/05} <br />
The pouch and headset are not that important IMO. I guess most join the group sale for convenience and reduce cost. But maybe I'm wrong.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
<br />
'''From the community mailing list again:<br />
<br />
'''Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote [to Pulster - Ed.]:<br />
''>> 1. Do you know when you'll be approximately able to define a price?<br />
''>> 2. The Freerunner will be shipped with extra goodies (generally<br />
''>> given only to people buying a 10-pack (ie: pouch and headset)?<br />
''> <br />
<br />
'''From Pulster [Ed.]<br />
<br />
''> Price fix ASAP I have the units in own hands/stocks.<br />
''> 299-319 eur is really realistic.<br />
''> <br />
''> All goodies included at PULSTER !<br />
''> <br />
''> Also can be bought a lot accessories extra very soon (debug board, pens, <br />
''> cases etc)<br />
''> <br />
''> you see, I will make all your wishes true :)<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/05} Yeah, read that message in the weekend, no reply to my mail at this moment but seeing this message straight from pulster I would say that we should buy directly from pulster as a group. Warranty wise it's better as well.<br />
<br />
399 U.S. dollars is about 253 Euros and including VAT that would become 301.07 Euro so pulster with their price being 299 Euro (see below) has a good price and for 10 and more there is a discount just like in the US. I would propose to take the dutch group sale to Pulster.<br />
<br />
The following mail from Chis Pulster was on the list also.<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
I am Chris from pulster.eu - my hello to this great community.<br />
<br />
May I add some points from my side:<br />
<br />
- Freerunner - ready to order ASAP it is available. We do not<br />
take pre-orders of items we dont have in hands. For a one-time info- <br />
mail once the Freerunner is ready to order, please just email me <br />
mailto: christoph@pulster.de<br />
- we aim a Freerunner price tag of 299 EUR incl. VAT<br />
- shipping worldwide with DHL, Europa 15 EUR, World 30 EUR postage<br />
- soon we offer accessories for Freerunner like spare batterie, charger, <br />
Headset, pouch and also the debug-board<br />
- group-sales make local communities, that is wonderful. I am happy to <br />
sell Freerunner separately or in packages.<br />
<br />
Many thanks,<br />
Chris<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
Indeed let's take the dutch group sale to Pulster. We are with 22 so we should be able to make a good deal regarding the goodies. And in that way no-one has to take any financial risk.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 28/05} My guess is, that for a group buy at pulster there is still one entity needed for buying the devices. The thing is that with pulster, as with the US deal, the waranty should be per person and not named for the buying entity.<br />
<br />
== Canada ==<br />
==== GTA (Toronto) ====<br />
{ --[[User:Argo|Argo]] 03:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC) }<br />
For group 1 it looks like they have actually gotten the 10 orders in? or am I them adding up wrong?<br />
<br />
== Croatia ==<br />
{--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 14:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)} '''ja ne bih da već sada radimo pan-balkansku grupu, iskreno sam iznenađen odazivom do sada, pa jedino možda ako ne skupimo dovoljno ljudi do kraja ovog tjedna...'''<br />
<br />
moj post sa hr.comp.os.linux upućen mnalisu;<br />
<br />
> BTW, ti si zapravo kontaktirao HULK i rekli su ti da bi to oni isli raditi i<br />
<br />
> gnjaviti se sa svim tim, ili ih cisto spominjes onako u smislu "pa oni su<br />
<br />
> dragi ljudi, sigurno ce besplatno uloziti mjesece svog zivota u to u zamjenu<br />
<br />
> za pivu" ?<br />
<br />
Davio sam ih malo zadnja dva dana na IRCu, i prema logu načelno su za<br />
da se narudžbe hendlaju preko njih. A i mislim da se ipak ne radi o<br />
mjesecima života bačenih za pivu, more like možda 2-3 sata za gajbu<br />
ili dvije :), hell ako je toliko teško napravit ću ja sve, učlanit se<br />
u HULK ako treba<br />
<br />
ali do toga trenutka ovako ja razmišljam:<br />
<br />
1.) skupimo 10 zainteresiranih<br />
2.) ja nazovem carinu i agenciju za telekomunikacije<br />
3.) pitamo openmoko za shipping estimate<br />
4.) ako su svi i dalje za, skupljanje sredstava i na kraju narudžba<br />
<br />
dakle ništa nije obligatory, idemo step by step, onog trenutka kada se<br />
prijavi 10 ljudi na wikiju ja zovem nadležne službe, pa ćemo vidit di<br />
stojimo sa uvozom i tim''<br />
<br />
nemoj odmah "worst case scenario" :)<br />
<br />
>> mozda da se malo na elitesecurity.org pokrene rasprava?<br />
<br />
--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 10:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC) svakako, ja sam za<br />
<br />
== Czech Republic ==<br />
Distribuční seznam, základní informace naleznete v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Czech_Republic GroupSales]<br />
<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Diskuze Diskuze]<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Dopl.C5.88uj.C3.ADc.C3.AD_informace Doplňující informace]<br />
<br />
=== Diskuze ===<br />
''Martin Holec''> Máme tu 4x ze Zlína, co kdyby někdo jel do Brna pro 4ks a ve Zlíně by se rozdělili?<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> jak jsem psal, já do Zlína jezdívám, a od května do září budu ve Zlíně velmi často, takže se Zlínem není vůbec problém.<br />
<br />
Jinak už se objevily nějaké termíny. Jestli jsem to dobře pochopil, tak 9.5. by už mohla začít masová výroba a brzy na to by měl začít prodej...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak by měl vlastně vypadat? Takový ten bíly se mně moc nelíbí. Radši bych měl [http://http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:FIC-neo1973_small.jpg černý].<br />
<br />
''Michal Pěnka''> Protože jsem jedenáctý a nevím, jestli bude možné objednat 11 kusů nebo jen po desítkách, domluvím se s Tomem Vargou později (jestli by byl ochotný pro převoz do Prahy), každopádně bych také raději ten černý.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak to tak tady pročítám tak to půjde objednat za zvýhodněnou cenu (+pytlík? a headset) opravdu jenom po desítkách. Ale IMHO když této stránce zvedneme popularitu (případně přiberem Slováky) tak jich budem nakonec brát minimálně dvacet ;) Mně osobně připadá datum 9.5. hodně optimistické.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> FreeRunner bude pouze v jedné barevné variantě, a to černý. To datum 9.5. mám [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates odsud]<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>Nemáte někdo fotku freerunnera ? na wiki jsem zatím našel jenom fotky GTA1-čky<br />
<br />
''David Kozub''>> Jelikoz se vyskytuju ve Zline i v Praze, muzu zajistit prevoz do Prahy.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No tak například tady to máš dokonce na videu: http://youtube.com/watch?v=k9QLdK6pFCI ;-) Ale jinak i na wiki se povalují fotky FreeRunnera. Například hned ta první na hlavní stránce ;-)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> To video je parádní. Co se týče té fotky z úvodu wiki, myslel jsem, že je to jenom render. Jinak jak jsem tak bloudil po stránkách české pošty - nejlevněj to nejspíš vyjde poslat jako profibalík za myslím že 64korun. Za dobírku se něco ještě připlácí. Balík je pojištěný do 100 000. [http://www.cpost.cz:80/jetspeed/portal/media-type/html/user/anon/page/default.psml/js_pane/sluzbyonline%2Czasilky?docid=370&calc_lb0=10424&calc_cb0=1 více zde]<br />
<br />
ad. '''Praha (Čechy):'''<br />
<br />
''Tom Varga''>> Pokoušel jsem se vyčíst z mailing listu, jak je to s tou množstevní slevou - co jsem z toho pochopil, tak by neměl být problém objednat množství nedělitené desíti, ale ty kusy navíc jsou pak [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016432.html bez slevy] a [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016202.html bez bonusu]; pořád by se to ale vyplatilo skrze poštovné. Prozatím bych navrhl, aby se zájemci z Prahy (Čech) zapsali / potvrdili smazáním otazníku v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu], možná něco podobného pro Slovensko - momentálně to vypadá, že bude snazší sehnat 20 zájemců celkem a taky by se tím mohla situace trochu vyjasnit. Osobně jsem schopen zajistit dovoz z Brna do Prahy, Liberce, Jablonce n.N. a přilehlých končin. Případné návrhy sem ;)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>> Řekl bych že čím větší balík poletí za Ameriky sem tím levněj to vyjde. Pokud není poštovné na gramy. 20-ti zájemců se určitě dočkáme. Když počítám Františka Horínka z Bratislavy tak je nás 18. Co se týče bonusů na headsetu moc nelpím ale ten pytel by se mně vážně hodil. Často v kapse kombinuju mobil a klíče nebo šroubovák...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>> Poštovné samozřejmě není na gramy, ale na libry, neboli každých započatých 0.45 kg se platí, plus se poštovné započítává do cla, mimochodem taková zásilka asi jen tak přes celnici neprojde, takže je možné, že nikdo (příjemce) bude muset dodat na celnici případné dokumenty dokladující hodnotu zasílaného zboží.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>> Tak dle "platného" celního sazebníku by se clo nemělo platit. Viz [http://disk.jabbim.cz/ivir@jabbim.com/celni_sazebnik.pdf Sazebník] strana 568. Tedy by se hradilo pouze DPH. Aspoň si myslím, že 20 telefonů jako "dárek" asi neprojde.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>>> No tím lépe, ale tak já to beztak myslel jako celý celní dluh a to dph je právě i z poštovného.<br />
<br />
''Miloslav Machotka''> Koukám že jsem trochu zaspal dění. :) V [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu] jsem se připsal k Praze. Mám to nejblíž, jsem z Vlašimi, ale jinak jsem pro to schopen dojet i do Brna. Jsem pro to aby se to vyřešilo, pokud možno, po desítkách a pak to rozvést (rozeslat) po Čechách a Slovensku. Bonusy se asi většině lidí hodí.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>>>>> DPH musíme taky platit ?? To je mrzuté. Kolik mají DPH slováci ? nevyšlo by to levněj poslat do Bratislavy a stama ''"propašovat"'' k nám ? Když už máme ten šengen... Nevrátí nám třeba amíci DPH které za to zaplatili u nich ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>>>>> Co je mi známo, tak při obchodování mimo zemi se DPH neúčtuje a účtuje se až v cílové zemi. Dle rok starého článku na měšci je základní sazba stejná, tj. 19%. Od DPH by to šlo odprostit pouze pokud by na tom balíku bylo napsáno, že se jedná o dárek. Pak se na to daň neuplatní. Jakmile se mi povede najít ustanovení/článek, tak jsem dám odkaz.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No ono je stále ještě otázkou, odkud to vůbec budou posílat. Protože sem někde viděl informace, že se budou snažit zásobovat Evropu z nějakého centra v Evropě. O tom dárku jsem taky slyšel, ale prej to taky není zaručený způsob. Celníci se do toho můžou podívat, a uvalit na to daň podle vlastního rozhodnutí (prej). Jinak ale je tu ještě možnost, že by nám to někdo dovezl. Nevíte jak to funguje v tom případě?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>To centrum v Evropě bylo v plánu avšak levněji jim to vyjde posílání z Ameriky, takže bude k dispozici jen jedno centrum v USA. Ohledně toho dárku jsem doposud četl, že jeho částka nesmí přesáhnout 55€, jinak je normálně proclíván. Při osobním převozu jsou nastaveny limity výše viz [http://www.celnisprava.cz/CmsGrc/Cestovani-a-nakupy/Jak-se-chovat/mimo-eu.htm celní správa].<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Kdyby vezl dva tři tak by možná ukecal že je to dárek ale dvacet... clo vem čert to bude nanejvýš 3,5% což není taková pálka. Spíš kdy se to DPH z toho platí ? Hned na celnici nebo musím podat něco jako daňové přiznání ?<br />
* No tak zatím jsem zjistil že nejspíš jediná šance jak se osvobodit od cla a DPH je že všeci sedem do letadla a zajedem si pro to. Limit je 6000kč na jednu osobu starší 15-ti let.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mares''>>>> Clo se na tento druh zboží nevztahuje. Platí se pouze české DPH, který ti celníci vyměří z ''ceny zboží + doprava + clo'', pak ti v případě fyzické osoby zašlou na tvou poštu, kde uhradíš DPH jako dobírku. U podnikatele je to trošku jiné. VAT (čili americké DPH) na zboží nebude uvaleno, jelikož zboží je vyváženo z USA.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No a dá se tohle spočítat předem? Abysme mohli stanovit cenu?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> No dokud nebude jasne kolik bude stat postovne (typ + vaha) a jaky bude kurs dolaru, tak presna cena asi tezko.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>No co. Tak ti každý pošlem sedm tisíc s tím, že potom přebytky rozdělíš do obálek a budeš předávat s každým telefonem obálku. Jinak to asi dost dobře nepůjde. Jedině že by nám to sem dopravila česká pobočka FIC-u/foxconn. Ale to je podle mně nepravděpodobné.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>JJ take myslim, ze bych dal predbeznou cenu 7K s tim, ze uz je poslem, at muzes pruzne zareagovat a ne pak cekat az vsichni poslou.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>> Kdyby se zase Steve nebo někdo vyjádřil v jakém je to stavu a přidal předběžný odhad kdy se začne prodávat. Teďka je to těžko. Můžou ho vydat zítra ale taky třeba i za půl roku pokud se objeví nějaký složitý problém.<br />
Ještě k té předběžné ceně - dolar není za 15 korun ale za 16,1-16,2 korun I s DPH se do těch 7000 nespíš nevejdem. Jestli že se domluvíme žo začnem posílat peníze tak navrhuju posílat 7500. IMHO dolar už níž nepůjde.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Co jsem se zatím díval na možnosti přepravy (DHL,Fedex,UPS,USPS), tak nejvýhodněji vychází USPS ([http://www.usps.com/ usps.com]), kdy se pohybujeme kolem částky 120$ i s pojištěním (kdyby to bylo cca 10kg což pochybuji). Bohužel maximální pojištění činí 5 000$, přičemž celková částka balíku vychází na cca 7 580$ . U ostatních jsem ohledně pojištění nenašel zmínku, přičemž poštovné vycházelo většinou přes 500$. Z pohledu pojištění by bylo vhodné objednávky rozdělit. Ještě bude záležet jaké poštovní služby nabídnou v e-shopu. Včera u ČSOB byla prodejní cena dolaru na 16,44Kč/$ a musím bohužel souhlasit, že lepší to už nebude. Jinak ceník je k dispozici na této adrese [http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781 http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781] .<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Teď mně napadlo - co kdyby jsem někde založili učet (nejlépe spořící) v dolarech a poslali to tam teď ? [http://www.mesec.cz/clanky/ucet-v-cizi-mene-ano-ale-kde/] Kdyby tak člověk věděl že pozítru neoznámí prodej...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>> Tak urcite bych pockal s placenim na nejake jistejsi vyjadreni, ale necekal bych na otevreni kramu, tehdy uz by chtelo, aby se to dalo hned objednat, co se tyka uctu neverim, ze dolar spadne, ale ani ze poroste a tak bych to neresil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vzhledem k množství objednávaného zboží bych možná už využil dopravních společností, které za nás provedou celní odbavení. Aspoň metodický pokyny k vyplnění JSD (jednotný správní doklad) nejsou triviální a zabere to minimálně půlden. Ukázku dokumentu jsme nalezl zde: [http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/ http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/].<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> Dole v tom dopisu z celního úřadu se píše: "který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost" to nikdo z nás má?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >> '''[http://www.trisoft.de/en_freerunner.htm Evropský Distributor]''', ale je celkem dražší.<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Což o to, [http://www.pulster.de/ tady] je o 50 euro levnější, ale nemyslím si, že to bude ve výsledku výhodnější.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>> Co jsem se díval do pokynů, tak to může vyplnit i fyzická osoba, jelikož každý způsobilý občan může provést obchodní činnost. Pouze nesmí být opakovaného rázu, tj. jednorázové obchody. Zkusím se tedy dotázat konkrétněji na tuto část. Ohledně toho evropského distributora nevím. Odhadem to vychází přes 1000 Kč dráž bez poštovného a bez bonusů. Jestliže se nám poradí vyřešit problém s celním úřadem, tak bych spíše volil objednávku z USA. Připadá mi, že tyhle obchody to jen objednají v USA, přijmou a přepošlou s přirážkou.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >>>> Take jsem pro USA, jen sem to nasel a ac ten od Radka Machulky je uz zajimavejsi tak verim, ze se dostanem i pod nej a jeste je tam ten obal a sluchatka.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Já jsem též pro USA. Ještě by bylo možné (teoreticky) zkusit si to objednat přes nějakého (mešího) obchodníka co bere věci od FIC-u<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''> Tož sem [[GroupSales#Aktu.C3.A1ln.C4.9B|vyhlásil konkurz]] na koordinátora pražské větve a snad se najde někdo kdo je schopen se vejít do těch zásadních bodů co jsem tam nastínil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Relativně požadavky splňuji. Mám studentský ČSOB účet mající limit na 1,5M, kartu Visa Classic, angličtinu zvládám na úrovni čtení technické dokumentace, bydlím na Barrandově a jabber též mám (ivir@jabbim.com). Jen tu důvěryhodnost nemám. :) S tím clem to bude ještě zajímavé, ale snad mi ohledně toho ještě poradí z celního úřadu. V nouzi mám k dispozici i OSVČ. :)<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Dle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017531.html příspěvku] bude dovoz zboží do USA zahájen někdy 1.června. K tomu je nutné připočítat min. týden až 3 než zboží dorazí do skladů. Z příspěvku teoreticky vyplývá, že bude i evropský HUB. Snad to bude za stejnou částku a s bonusy. :)<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>Podle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017607.html příspěvku] by měl webový shop odkazovat na us i eu a to vypadá čím dál nadějnějš co se týká poštovného aj cla.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' jestli to dobře překládám tak není jasné jakým způsobem to půjde z činy - jestli lodí nebo letadlem ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Ano, aspoň takto jsem to pochopil i já. Problémem je ta doba dodání. Jinak co se týká vyřízení JSD (cla), tak u zprostředkovatele [http://www.kama-eu.cz/ KAMA s.r.o.>, jež mi doporučil celní úřad, vychází na cca 1000 Kč viz ceník, což mi připadá přijatelné.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No mně ty informace od Steva přijdou vždycky nějaké zmatené. Nevědí jestli lodí nebo letadlem, ale odejít by to snad mělo až 1.6. (nebo co má znamenat to datum, v jeho zprávě), takže to ještě docela potrvá... :-(<br />
Jan Mareš: můžeš prosím popsat co přesně má být těch 1000Kč a jak se na to přijde? Já tomu pořád nějak nerozumím...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> <font color="gray">best case is I would start to test phones around the first of june. Then<br />
pack and ship.<br />
</font>1.6. začíná testovat telefony a potm je balit a odesílat.<br><br />
<font color=gray>The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically you<br />
build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy% pass the test, and the factory says.<br />
"good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on the<br />
test software, because that bad phone really was good." arrg.</font> Ale toto nějak moc nechápu.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vychází to takto: 250 Kč (vypracování JSD), 30 Kč (vypracování hodnoty), 250 Kč (jednani za deklaranta), 30 Kč (avízo) a pak asi ručení (350). Je to můj odhad a po konkrétním dotaze by měli sdělit částku. Asi tedy bude třeba připočítat poštovné (250 Kč). Zatím jsem jim napsal dotaz ohledně nepodnikající osoby s tímto množstvím, tak jsem zvědav kdy odpoví.<br />
Tu další část považuji za povzdychnutí, kdy jim vyrobili více telefonů z nichž jen část prošla a továrna chce tohle číslo minimalizovat a že dané chyby byly spíše SW povahy.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' Podle toho co píšeš bych řekl že by vyšlo levněj kdyby jsme brali všechny telefony dohromady.Jaké má výhody osamostatnění Prahy ?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' No nedokazeme pojistit 30telefonu na jejich cenu pri doprave, ale jinak pokud by to clo vyrizovala firma asi by to bylo vyhodnejsi.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Trochu mě znepokojují zprávy v community e-mail archivu, kde uvádějí, že openmoko e-shop využívá služeb UPS. U nich by nebyl problém s pojištěním, ale ty ceny. Cena je de facto konstantní na cca 600$ (při 10kg balíčku), takže pak by bylo vhodné objednávku shrnout dohromady. Pak by to vycházelo o cca 10$ na hlavu více. Snažím se přesvědčit otce jako OSVČ, že by byla objednávka napsaná na něj a tím pádem by odpadl problém s využitím výše uvedené společnosti od nichž jsem dostal zamítavé stanovisko ohledně "neobchodní zásilky".<br />
<br />
Pak už zbývá využít evropského distributora Pulster.de . Teoreticky mi vychází částka při dovozu z US na 7600 Kč a u Pulsteru na 7 660Kč bez poštovné. Avšak za předpokladu společné hromadné objednávky. V opačném případě je nutné připočíst u US objednávky cca tisícovku (při 10 lidech).<br />
<br />
Zapomněl jsem tedy dodat, že zboží by bylo v republice za 4-5 dnů + pár dnů na vyřízení celního řízení.<br />
<br />
=== Doplňující informace ===<br />
* '''Moje komunikace s pobočkou FIC v ČR:'''<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
Taiwanský FIC v nejbližších dnech začne s prodejem mobilního telefonu<br />
Neo FreeRunner (www.openmoko.com). Chci se zeptat, jestli bude možné případné<br />
reklamace a opravy řešit u vás?<br />
<br />
Zatím není známý přesný způsob distribuce tohoto telefonu pro Evropu<br />
a Českou republiku. Nebude vaše pobočka zapojena do distribuční sítě?<br />
<br />
Děkuji za odpověď, Martin Šenkeřík<br />
Odpověď:<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
FIC CZ s.r.o. v těchto měsících přechází pod Foxconn CZ.<br />
V případě reklamace či informací se obracejte přímo na FIC TW.<br />
Kontaktní osobou na Zákaznickém oddělení je<br />
<br />
Mr. James Chang<br />
Customer Service Department<br />
Te.: +886 2 8751 8751 ext.6196<br />
James_chang@fic.com.tw<br />
<br />
S pozdravem<br />
<br />
Jarka Ripplova<br />
<br />
* '''Dotaz na celní úřad ohledně zpracování zásilky:'''<br />
Věc: Informace<br />
<br />
K Vaší žádosti o informaci týkající se hromadného dovozu zásilky pro osobní<br />
potřebu více příjemců Vám sdělujeme:<br />
<br />
Za zásilku zboží neobchodní povahy se ve smyslu celních předpisů považují<br />
zásilky, které jsou dováženy příležitostně a které obsahují výhradně zboží<br />
určené k osobnímu užití příjemců nebo jejich rodin, přičemž toto zboží nesmí<br />
povahou ani množstvím svědčit o obchodním úmyslu dovozce. Z uvedeného<br />
vyplývá, že tzv. sběrná zásilka nemůže být považována za zásilku zboží<br />
neobchodní povahy, i když obsah je určen pro osobní potřebu soukromých osob.<br />
Při dovozu zásilky obchodní povahy je zásilka zadržena při vstupu na celní<br />
území EU a příjemce vyzván k předložení celního prohlášení. Celní formality<br />
uskutečňuje příjemce, který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost.<br />
<br />
Pro zboží zařazené v některé z podpoložek čísla 8517 je celním sazebníkem EU<br />
stanovena sazba cla 0 %. Při dovozu zásilky zboží obchodního charakteru<br />
celní orgány posuzují, zda zboží nepodléhá zvláštnímu řízení podle zákona č.<br />
38/1994 Sb., o zahraničním obchodu s vojenským materiálem. Vedle cla se při<br />
propuštění dovezeného zboží do volného oběhu v tuzemsku vyměřuje DPH v<br />
základní sazbě 19 %. Základem pro vyměření DPH je cena, za kterou bylo zboží<br />
prodáno do EU, ke které se přičtou náklady na dopravu zásilky do EU, podle<br />
příslušných ustanovení zákona o DPH.<br />
<br />
Celní dluh, jehož součástí je i DPH, se vyměří v českých korunách z celní<br />
hodnoty převedené na české koruny v kurzu platném pro příslušné období.<br />
Aktuální kurzy měn jsou uveřejněny na stránkách Celní správy České republiky<br />
www.cs.mfcr.cz cestou Servis - Kurzovní lístky.</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Group_salesTalk:Group sales2008-05-26T13:30:39Z<p>Mivaho: /* The Netherlands */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
== England ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}<br />
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?<br />
<br />
:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.<br />
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
::Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====<br />
<br />
I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?<br />
<br />
I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?<br />
<br />
In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(<br />
<br />
:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] - [mailto:stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk let me know] if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
<br />
Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)<br />
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.<br />
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but<br />
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}<br />
<br />
<br />
Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php<br />
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen<br />
<br />
Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van <br />
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd <br />
zou willen zien worden.<br />
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie <br />
over het te leveren artikel.<br />
<br />
Uw naam J. de Haan<br />
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
Artikelinformatie<br />
Merk openmoko<br />
Naam freerunner<br />
Website openmoko.com<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen <br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor <br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail <br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
E-mailcontact - verzonden<br />
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.<br />
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)<br />
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not<br />
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out <br />
on Utrecht CS :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)<br />
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? <br /><br />
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1." <br />
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.<br />
<br />
{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will have 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Belgium Belgium]. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.<br />
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:<br />
<br />
Geachte heer,<br />
<br />
Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
<br />
Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx<br />
Product Management / Technical Support<br />
<br />
Salland Automatisering<br />
<br />
Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post. <br /><br />
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.<br />
from Jan de Haan <haan.j.de@gmail.com><br />
to inkoop@azerty.nl,<br />
date Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM<br />
subject Openmoko - Freerunner<br />
mailed-by gmail.com<br />
<br />
hide details 8:52 PM (0 minutes ago)<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen<br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor<br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
Een importeur schijnt trisoft.de te zijn. Let wel: dit product is<br />
nog niet op de markt,<br />
al zijn de laatste test productie runs klaar.<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail<br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken. <br /><br />
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):<br />
<br />
=== Votes for a reseller ===<br />
{|border=1<br />
!Name<br />
!Trisoft<br />
!Open Source Nieuws Nederland<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (Subject to a solution for warranty)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[Special:Emailuser/User:PWerken|Peter van de Werken]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (note: I'll buy 2 Freerunners)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (If warranty is OK)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|'''Total'''<br />
|<br />
|10<br />
|}<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:<br />
Beste Yorick,<br />
<br />
Bedankt voor je mail en informatie; ik kende de toestellen niet, maar zou ze<br />
best eens van dichtbij willen bekijken. Het 'developer' model lijkt me dan<br />
echter weer minder interessant voor ons; het 'consumer' model zou eind 2008<br />
op de markt moeten komen?<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
With kind regards,<br />
<br />
Michael Brus<br />
Manager PDAshop<br />
<br />
<br />
Coolblue<br />
Molenbaan 11 . 2908 LL Capelle a/d IJssel . www.coolblue.nl<br />
<br />
Coolblue is...<br />
MP3shop.nl . PDAshop.nl . Digicamshop.nl . GPSshop.nl .<br />
Smartphoneshop.nl . Consoleshop.nl . Telefoonshop.nl . meer...<br />
<br />
Should I forward this to Michael Shiloh?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 07/05} I'll vote to wait until there are actually phones shipping, until that time, the more people we gather here, and maybe other dealers, the better the deal we get(I hope).<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 08/05} <br />
Well, I want to have the phone as soon as possible. The best deal ever isn't my main concern.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 13/05}<br />
I've been browsing the mailing list, and found [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/016971.html this post] from Openmoko's Steve. Group sales have 28 days of DOA (Dead On Arrival) coverage, and single sales have 14 days of DOA coverage. Which I think is reasonable. BTW, I don't think there will be a better deal than the $369 per phone for the 10-pack. <br /><br />
We currently have enough people to fill 2 10-packs, which is awesome! <br /><br />
What we do need to figure out are the import costs, and the shipping costs. (it's shipped via UPS, if I recall correctly from the mailing list.)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 22/05}<br />
<br />
I wouldn't be too sure that this is financially going to be the best deal. This message in the community mailing list (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017668.html) shows interesting info regarding Pulster.<br />
----<br />
''Christph Pulster wrote:<br />
''> about 10 pack orders - we try to be cheaper than the 10-order-<br />
''> pack-price ! so no need to collect ten local buyers.<br />
<br />
''This sounds so good...! I'm waiting for official news (and maybe infos <br />
about the gifts too)...''<br />
----<br />
'''I checked their webpage and they advertise with OpenMoko Freerunner 299 eur'''<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 22/05} I checked their website too and it says 'Sobald der Freerunner wirklich lieferbar ist, ist er an dieser Stelle mit konkretem Preis zu finden und real bestellbar.' Which could mean that the price will be something other than 299 euro.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I like the pulster deal a lot, even if they are the same price as buying the 10 pack in the US the warranty part is a lot better seeing Germany is next door to us. Only thing is that you would mis out on the pouch and headset, dunno if that's such a great loss. And they say they will be going under the price of the US 10 pack order if you order the 10 from them. So maybe a vote on yes or no to the pouch/headset deal? Maybe we should check if with Pulster a group order of 10+ will always give the discount. Like 22 will get the same discount and that we are not forced in getting groups of ten people.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I wrote an e-mail to pulster with the questions so I will post the answer here when I get one.<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 24/05} <br />
The pouch and headset are not that important IMO. I guess most join the group sale for convenience and reduce cost. But maybe I'm wrong.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 26/05}<br />
<br />
From the community mailing list again:<br />
<br />
'''Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote [to Pulster - Ed.]:<br />
<br />
''>> 1. Do you know when you'll be approximately able to define a price?<br />
<br />
''>> 2. The Freerunner will be shipped with extra goodies (generally<br />
<br />
''>> given only to people buying a 10-pack (ie: pouch and headset)?<br />
<br />
''> <br />
<br />
'''From Pulster [Ed.]<br />
<br />
''> Price fix ASAP I have the units in own hands/stocks.<br />
<br />
''> 299-319 eur is really realistic.<br />
<br />
''> <br />
<br />
''> All goodies included at PULSTER !<br />
<br />
''> <br />
<br />
''> Also can be bought a lot accessories extra very soon (debug board, pens, <br />
<br />
''> cases etc)<br />
<br />
''> <br />
<br />
''> <br />
<br />
''> you see, I will make all your wishes true :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 26/05} Yeah, read that message in the weekend, no reply to my mail at this moment but seeing this message straight from pulster I would say that we should buy directly from pulster as a group. Warranty wise it's better as well.<br />
<br />
399 U.S. dollars is about 253 Euros and including VAT that would become 301.07 Euro so pulster with their price being 299 Euro (see below) has a good price and for 10 and more there is a discount just like in the US. I would propose to take the dutch group sale to Pulster.<br />
<br />
The following mail from Chis Pulster was on the list also.<br />
<br />
<br />
----<br />
I am Chris from pulster.eu - my hello to this great community.<br />
<br />
May I add some points from my side:<br />
<br />
- Freerunner - ready to order ASAP it is available. We do not<br />
take pre-orders of items we dont have in hands. For a one-time info- <br />
mail once the Freerunner is ready to order, please just email me <br />
mailto: christoph@pulster.de<br />
- we aim a Freerunner price tag of 299 EUR incl. VAT<br />
- shipping worldwide with DHL, Europa 15 EUR, World 30 EUR postage<br />
- soon we offer accessories for Freerunner like spare batterie, charger, <br />
Headset, pouch and also the debug-board<br />
- group-sales make local communities, that is wonderful. I am happy to <br />
sell Freerunner separately or in packages.<br />
<br />
Many thanks,<br />
Chris<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
== Canada ==<br />
==== GTA (Toronto) ====<br />
{ --[[User:Argo|Argo]] 03:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC) }<br />
For group 1 it looks like they have actually gotten the 10 orders in? or am I them adding up wrong?<br />
<br />
== Croatia ==<br />
{--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 14:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)} '''ja ne bih da već sada radimo pan-balkansku grupu, iskreno sam iznenađen odazivom do sada, pa jedino možda ako ne skupimo dovoljno ljudi do kraja ovog tjedna...'''<br />
<br />
moj post sa hr.comp.os.linux upućen mnalisu;<br />
<br />
> BTW, ti si zapravo kontaktirao HULK i rekli su ti da bi to oni isli raditi i<br />
<br />
> gnjaviti se sa svim tim, ili ih cisto spominjes onako u smislu "pa oni su<br />
<br />
> dragi ljudi, sigurno ce besplatno uloziti mjesece svog zivota u to u zamjenu<br />
<br />
> za pivu" ?<br />
<br />
Davio sam ih malo zadnja dva dana na IRCu, i prema logu načelno su za<br />
da se narudžbe hendlaju preko njih. A i mislim da se ipak ne radi o<br />
mjesecima života bačenih za pivu, more like možda 2-3 sata za gajbu<br />
ili dvije :), hell ako je toliko teško napravit ću ja sve, učlanit se<br />
u HULK ako treba<br />
<br />
ali do toga trenutka ovako ja razmišljam:<br />
<br />
1.) skupimo 10 zainteresiranih<br />
2.) ja nazovem carinu i agenciju za telekomunikacije<br />
3.) pitamo openmoko za shipping estimate<br />
4.) ako su svi i dalje za, skupljanje sredstava i na kraju narudžba<br />
<br />
dakle ništa nije obligatory, idemo step by step, onog trenutka kada se<br />
prijavi 10 ljudi na wikiju ja zovem nadležne službe, pa ćemo vidit di<br />
stojimo sa uvozom i tim''<br />
<br />
nemoj odmah "worst case scenario" :)<br />
<br />
>> mozda da se malo na elitesecurity.org pokrene rasprava?<br />
<br />
--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 10:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC) svakako, ja sam za<br />
<br />
== Czech Republic ==<br />
Distribuční seznam, základní informace naleznete v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Czech_Republic GroupSales]<br />
<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Diskuze Diskuze]<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Dopl.C5.88uj.C3.ADc.C3.AD_informace Doplňující informace]<br />
<br />
=== Diskuze ===<br />
''Martin Holec''> Máme tu 4x ze Zlína, co kdyby někdo jel do Brna pro 4ks a ve Zlíně by se rozdělili?<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> jak jsem psal, já do Zlína jezdívám, a od května do září budu ve Zlíně velmi často, takže se Zlínem není vůbec problém.<br />
<br />
Jinak už se objevily nějaké termíny. Jestli jsem to dobře pochopil, tak 9.5. by už mohla začít masová výroba a brzy na to by měl začít prodej...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak by měl vlastně vypadat? Takový ten bíly se mně moc nelíbí. Radši bych měl [http://http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:FIC-neo1973_small.jpg černý].<br />
<br />
''Michal Pěnka''> Protože jsem jedenáctý a nevím, jestli bude možné objednat 11 kusů nebo jen po desítkách, domluvím se s Tomem Vargou později (jestli by byl ochotný pro převoz do Prahy), každopádně bych také raději ten černý.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak to tak tady pročítám tak to půjde objednat za zvýhodněnou cenu (+pytlík? a headset) opravdu jenom po desítkách. Ale IMHO když této stránce zvedneme popularitu (případně přiberem Slováky) tak jich budem nakonec brát minimálně dvacet ;) Mně osobně připadá datum 9.5. hodně optimistické.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> FreeRunner bude pouze v jedné barevné variantě, a to černý. To datum 9.5. mám [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates odsud]<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>Nemáte někdo fotku freerunnera ? na wiki jsem zatím našel jenom fotky GTA1-čky<br />
<br />
''David Kozub''>> Jelikoz se vyskytuju ve Zline i v Praze, muzu zajistit prevoz do Prahy.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No tak například tady to máš dokonce na videu: http://youtube.com/watch?v=k9QLdK6pFCI ;-) Ale jinak i na wiki se povalují fotky FreeRunnera. Například hned ta první na hlavní stránce ;-)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> To video je parádní. Co se týče té fotky z úvodu wiki, myslel jsem, že je to jenom render. Jinak jak jsem tak bloudil po stránkách české pošty - nejlevněj to nejspíš vyjde poslat jako profibalík za myslím že 64korun. Za dobírku se něco ještě připlácí. Balík je pojištěný do 100 000. [http://www.cpost.cz:80/jetspeed/portal/media-type/html/user/anon/page/default.psml/js_pane/sluzbyonline%2Czasilky?docid=370&calc_lb0=10424&calc_cb0=1 více zde]<br />
<br />
ad. '''Praha (Čechy):'''<br />
<br />
''Tom Varga''>> Pokoušel jsem se vyčíst z mailing listu, jak je to s tou množstevní slevou - co jsem z toho pochopil, tak by neměl být problém objednat množství nedělitené desíti, ale ty kusy navíc jsou pak [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016432.html bez slevy] a [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016202.html bez bonusu]; pořád by se to ale vyplatilo skrze poštovné. Prozatím bych navrhl, aby se zájemci z Prahy (Čech) zapsali / potvrdili smazáním otazníku v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu], možná něco podobného pro Slovensko - momentálně to vypadá, že bude snazší sehnat 20 zájemců celkem a taky by se tím mohla situace trochu vyjasnit. Osobně jsem schopen zajistit dovoz z Brna do Prahy, Liberce, Jablonce n.N. a přilehlých končin. Případné návrhy sem ;)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>> Řekl bych že čím větší balík poletí za Ameriky sem tím levněj to vyjde. Pokud není poštovné na gramy. 20-ti zájemců se určitě dočkáme. Když počítám Františka Horínka z Bratislavy tak je nás 18. Co se týče bonusů na headsetu moc nelpím ale ten pytel by se mně vážně hodil. Často v kapse kombinuju mobil a klíče nebo šroubovák...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>> Poštovné samozřejmě není na gramy, ale na libry, neboli každých započatých 0.45 kg se platí, plus se poštovné započítává do cla, mimochodem taková zásilka asi jen tak přes celnici neprojde, takže je možné, že nikdo (příjemce) bude muset dodat na celnici případné dokumenty dokladující hodnotu zasílaného zboží.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>> Tak dle "platného" celního sazebníku by se clo nemělo platit. Viz [http://disk.jabbim.cz/ivir@jabbim.com/celni_sazebnik.pdf Sazebník] strana 568. Tedy by se hradilo pouze DPH. Aspoň si myslím, že 20 telefonů jako "dárek" asi neprojde.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>>> No tím lépe, ale tak já to beztak myslel jako celý celní dluh a to dph je právě i z poštovného.<br />
<br />
''Miloslav Machotka''> Koukám že jsem trochu zaspal dění. :) V [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu] jsem se připsal k Praze. Mám to nejblíž, jsem z Vlašimi, ale jinak jsem pro to schopen dojet i do Brna. Jsem pro to aby se to vyřešilo, pokud možno, po desítkách a pak to rozvést (rozeslat) po Čechách a Slovensku. Bonusy se asi většině lidí hodí.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>>>>> DPH musíme taky platit ?? To je mrzuté. Kolik mají DPH slováci ? nevyšlo by to levněj poslat do Bratislavy a stama ''"propašovat"'' k nám ? Když už máme ten šengen... Nevrátí nám třeba amíci DPH které za to zaplatili u nich ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>>>>> Co je mi známo, tak při obchodování mimo zemi se DPH neúčtuje a účtuje se až v cílové zemi. Dle rok starého článku na měšci je základní sazba stejná, tj. 19%. Od DPH by to šlo odprostit pouze pokud by na tom balíku bylo napsáno, že se jedná o dárek. Pak se na to daň neuplatní. Jakmile se mi povede najít ustanovení/článek, tak jsem dám odkaz.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No ono je stále ještě otázkou, odkud to vůbec budou posílat. Protože sem někde viděl informace, že se budou snažit zásobovat Evropu z nějakého centra v Evropě. O tom dárku jsem taky slyšel, ale prej to taky není zaručený způsob. Celníci se do toho můžou podívat, a uvalit na to daň podle vlastního rozhodnutí (prej). Jinak ale je tu ještě možnost, že by nám to někdo dovezl. Nevíte jak to funguje v tom případě?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>To centrum v Evropě bylo v plánu avšak levněji jim to vyjde posílání z Ameriky, takže bude k dispozici jen jedno centrum v USA. Ohledně toho dárku jsem doposud četl, že jeho částka nesmí přesáhnout 55€, jinak je normálně proclíván. Při osobním převozu jsou nastaveny limity výše viz [http://www.celnisprava.cz/CmsGrc/Cestovani-a-nakupy/Jak-se-chovat/mimo-eu.htm celní správa].<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Kdyby vezl dva tři tak by možná ukecal že je to dárek ale dvacet... clo vem čert to bude nanejvýš 3,5% což není taková pálka. Spíš kdy se to DPH z toho platí ? Hned na celnici nebo musím podat něco jako daňové přiznání ?<br />
* No tak zatím jsem zjistil že nejspíš jediná šance jak se osvobodit od cla a DPH je že všeci sedem do letadla a zajedem si pro to. Limit je 6000kč na jednu osobu starší 15-ti let.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mares''>>>> Clo se na tento druh zboží nevztahuje. Platí se pouze české DPH, který ti celníci vyměří z ''ceny zboží + doprava + clo'', pak ti v případě fyzické osoby zašlou na tvou poštu, kde uhradíš DPH jako dobírku. U podnikatele je to trošku jiné. VAT (čili americké DPH) na zboží nebude uvaleno, jelikož zboží je vyváženo z USA.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No a dá se tohle spočítat předem? Abysme mohli stanovit cenu?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> No dokud nebude jasne kolik bude stat postovne (typ + vaha) a jaky bude kurs dolaru, tak presna cena asi tezko.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>No co. Tak ti každý pošlem sedm tisíc s tím, že potom přebytky rozdělíš do obálek a budeš předávat s každým telefonem obálku. Jinak to asi dost dobře nepůjde. Jedině že by nám to sem dopravila česká pobočka FIC-u/foxconn. Ale to je podle mně nepravděpodobné.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>JJ take myslim, ze bych dal predbeznou cenu 7K s tim, ze uz je poslem, at muzes pruzne zareagovat a ne pak cekat az vsichni poslou.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>> Kdyby se zase Steve nebo někdo vyjádřil v jakém je to stavu a přidal předběžný odhad kdy se začne prodávat. Teďka je to těžko. Můžou ho vydat zítra ale taky třeba i za půl roku pokud se objeví nějaký složitý problém.<br />
Ještě k té předběžné ceně - dolar není za 15 korun ale za 16,1-16,2 korun I s DPH se do těch 7000 nespíš nevejdem. Jestli že se domluvíme žo začnem posílat peníze tak navrhuju posílat 7500. IMHO dolar už níž nepůjde.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Co jsem se zatím díval na možnosti přepravy (DHL,Fedex,UPS,USPS), tak nejvýhodněji vychází USPS ([http://www.usps.com/ usps.com]), kdy se pohybujeme kolem částky 120$ i s pojištěním (kdyby to bylo cca 10kg což pochybuji). Bohužel maximální pojištění činí 5 000$, přičemž celková částka balíku vychází na cca 7 580$ . U ostatních jsem ohledně pojištění nenašel zmínku, přičemž poštovné vycházelo většinou přes 500$. Z pohledu pojištění by bylo vhodné objednávky rozdělit. Ještě bude záležet jaké poštovní služby nabídnou v e-shopu. Včera u ČSOB byla prodejní cena dolaru na 16,44Kč/$ a musím bohužel souhlasit, že lepší to už nebude. Jinak ceník je k dispozici na této adrese [http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781 http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781] .<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Teď mně napadlo - co kdyby jsem někde založili učet (nejlépe spořící) v dolarech a poslali to tam teď ? [http://www.mesec.cz/clanky/ucet-v-cizi-mene-ano-ale-kde/] Kdyby tak člověk věděl že pozítru neoznámí prodej...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>> Tak urcite bych pockal s placenim na nejake jistejsi vyjadreni, ale necekal bych na otevreni kramu, tehdy uz by chtelo, aby se to dalo hned objednat, co se tyka uctu neverim, ze dolar spadne, ale ani ze poroste a tak bych to neresil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vzhledem k množství objednávaného zboží bych možná už využil dopravních společností, které za nás provedou celní odbavení. Aspoň metodický pokyny k vyplnění JSD (jednotný správní doklad) nejsou triviální a zabere to minimálně půlden. Ukázku dokumentu jsme nalezl zde: [http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/ http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/].<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> Dole v tom dopisu z celního úřadu se píše: "který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost" to nikdo z nás má?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >> '''[http://www.trisoft.de/en_freerunner.htm Evropský Distributor]''', ale je celkem dražší.<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Což o to, [http://www.pulster.de/ tady] je o 50 euro levnější, ale nemyslím si, že to bude ve výsledku výhodnější.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>> Co jsem se díval do pokynů, tak to může vyplnit i fyzická osoba, jelikož každý způsobilý občan může provést obchodní činnost. Pouze nesmí být opakovaného rázu, tj. jednorázové obchody. Zkusím se tedy dotázat konkrétněji na tuto část. Ohledně toho evropského distributora nevím. Odhadem to vychází přes 1000 Kč dráž bez poštovného a bez bonusů. Jestliže se nám poradí vyřešit problém s celním úřadem, tak bych spíše volil objednávku z USA. Připadá mi, že tyhle obchody to jen objednají v USA, přijmou a přepošlou s přirážkou.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >>>> Take jsem pro USA, jen sem to nasel a ac ten od Radka Machulky je uz zajimavejsi tak verim, ze se dostanem i pod nej a jeste je tam ten obal a sluchatka.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Já jsem též pro USA. Ještě by bylo možné (teoreticky) zkusit si to objednat přes nějakého (mešího) obchodníka co bere věci od FIC-u<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''> Tož sem [[GroupSales#Aktu.C3.A1ln.C4.9B|vyhlásil konkurz]] na koordinátora pražské větve a snad se najde někdo kdo je schopen se vejít do těch zásadních bodů co jsem tam nastínil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Relativně požadavky splňuji. Mám studentský ČSOB účet mající limit na 1,5M, kartu Visa Classic, angličtinu zvládám na úrovni čtení technické dokumentace, bydlím na Barrandově a jabber též mám (ivir@jabbim.com). Jen tu důvěryhodnost nemám. :) S tím clem to bude ještě zajímavé, ale snad mi ohledně toho ještě poradí z celního úřadu. V nouzi mám k dispozici i OSVČ. :)<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Dle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017531.html příspěvku] bude dovoz zboží do USA zahájen někdy 1.června. K tomu je nutné připočítat min. týden až 3 než zboží dorazí do skladů. Z příspěvku teoreticky vyplývá, že bude i evropský HUB. Snad to bude za stejnou částku a s bonusy. :)<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>Podle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017607.html příspěvku] by měl webový shop odkazovat na us i eu a to vypadá čím dál nadějnějš co se týká poštovného aj cla.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' jestli to dobře překládám tak není jasné jakým způsobem to půjde z činy - jestli lodí nebo letadlem ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Ano, aspoň takto jsem to pochopil i já. Problémem je ta doba dodání. Jinak co se týká vyřízení JSD (cla), tak u zprostředkovatele [http://www.kama-eu.cz/ KAMA s.r.o.>, jež mi doporučil celní úřad, vychází na cca 1000 Kč viz ceník, což mi připadá přijatelné.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No mně ty informace od Steva přijdou vždycky nějaké zmatené. Nevědí jestli lodí nebo letadlem, ale odejít by to snad mělo až 1.6. (nebo co má znamenat to datum, v jeho zprávě), takže to ještě docela potrvá... :-(<br />
Jan Mareš: můžeš prosím popsat co přesně má být těch 1000Kč a jak se na to přijde? Já tomu pořád nějak nerozumím...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> <font color="gray">best case is I would start to test phones around the first of june. Then<br />
pack and ship.<br />
</font>1.6. začíná testovat telefony a potm je balit a odesílat.<br><br />
<font color=gray>The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically you<br />
build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy% pass the test, and the factory says.<br />
"good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on the<br />
test software, because that bad phone really was good." arrg.</font> Ale toto nějak moc nechápu.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vychází to takto: 250 Kč (vypracování JSD), 30 Kč (vypracování hodnoty), 250 Kč (jednani za deklaranta), 30 Kč (avízo) a pak asi ručení (350). Je to můj odhad a po konkrétním dotaze by měli sdělit částku. Asi tedy bude třeba připočítat poštovné (250 Kč). Zatím jsem jim napsal dotaz ohledně nepodnikající osoby s tímto množstvím, tak jsem zvědav kdy odpoví.<br />
Tu další část považuji za povzdychnutí, kdy jim vyrobili více telefonů z nichž jen část prošla a továrna chce tohle číslo minimalizovat a že dané chyby byly spíše SW povahy.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' Podle toho co píšeš bych řekl že by vyšlo levněj kdyby jsme brali všechny telefony dohromady.Jaké má výhody osamostatnění Prahy ?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' No nedokazeme pojistit 30telefonu na jejich cenu pri doprave, ale jinak pokud by to clo vyrizovala firma asi by to bylo vyhodnejsi.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Trochu mě znepokojují zprávy v community e-mail archivu, kde uvádějí, že openmoko e-shop využívá služeb UPS. U nich by nebyl problém s pojištěním, ale ty ceny. Cena je de facto konstantní na cca 600$ (při 10kg balíčku), takže pak by bylo vhodné objednávku shrnout dohromady. Pak by to vycházelo o cca 10$ na hlavu více. Snažím se přesvědčit otce jako OSVČ, že by byla objednávka napsaná na něj a tím pádem by odpadl problém s využitím výše uvedené společnosti od nichž jsem dostal zamítavé stanovisko ohledně "neobchodní zásilky".<br />
<br />
Pak už zbývá využít evropského distributora Pulster.de . Teoreticky mi vychází částka při dovozu z US na 7600 Kč a u Pulsteru na 7 660Kč bez poštovné. Avšak za předpokladu společné hromadné objednávky. V opačném případě je nutné připočíst u US objednávky cca tisícovku (při 10 lidech).<br />
<br />
Zapomněl jsem tedy dodat, že zboží by bylo v republice za 4-5 dnů + pár dnů na vyřízení celního řízení.<br />
<br />
=== Doplňující informace ===<br />
* '''Moje komunikace s pobočkou FIC v ČR:'''<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
Taiwanský FIC v nejbližších dnech začne s prodejem mobilního telefonu<br />
Neo FreeRunner (www.openmoko.com). Chci se zeptat, jestli bude možné případné<br />
reklamace a opravy řešit u vás?<br />
<br />
Zatím není známý přesný způsob distribuce tohoto telefonu pro Evropu<br />
a Českou republiku. Nebude vaše pobočka zapojena do distribuční sítě?<br />
<br />
Děkuji za odpověď, Martin Šenkeřík<br />
Odpověď:<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
FIC CZ s.r.o. v těchto měsících přechází pod Foxconn CZ.<br />
V případě reklamace či informací se obracejte přímo na FIC TW.<br />
Kontaktní osobou na Zákaznickém oddělení je<br />
<br />
Mr. James Chang<br />
Customer Service Department<br />
Te.: +886 2 8751 8751 ext.6196<br />
James_chang@fic.com.tw<br />
<br />
S pozdravem<br />
<br />
Jarka Ripplova<br />
<br />
* '''Dotaz na celní úřad ohledně zpracování zásilky:'''<br />
Věc: Informace<br />
<br />
K Vaší žádosti o informaci týkající se hromadného dovozu zásilky pro osobní<br />
potřebu více příjemců Vám sdělujeme:<br />
<br />
Za zásilku zboží neobchodní povahy se ve smyslu celních předpisů považují<br />
zásilky, které jsou dováženy příležitostně a které obsahují výhradně zboží<br />
určené k osobnímu užití příjemců nebo jejich rodin, přičemž toto zboží nesmí<br />
povahou ani množstvím svědčit o obchodním úmyslu dovozce. Z uvedeného<br />
vyplývá, že tzv. sběrná zásilka nemůže být považována za zásilku zboží<br />
neobchodní povahy, i když obsah je určen pro osobní potřebu soukromých osob.<br />
Při dovozu zásilky obchodní povahy je zásilka zadržena při vstupu na celní<br />
území EU a příjemce vyzván k předložení celního prohlášení. Celní formality<br />
uskutečňuje příjemce, který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost.<br />
<br />
Pro zboží zařazené v některé z podpoložek čísla 8517 je celním sazebníkem EU<br />
stanovena sazba cla 0 %. Při dovozu zásilky zboží obchodního charakteru<br />
celní orgány posuzují, zda zboží nepodléhá zvláštnímu řízení podle zákona č.<br />
38/1994 Sb., o zahraničním obchodu s vojenským materiálem. Vedle cla se při<br />
propuštění dovezeného zboží do volného oběhu v tuzemsku vyměřuje DPH v<br />
základní sazbě 19 %. Základem pro vyměření DPH je cena, za kterou bylo zboží<br />
prodáno do EU, ke které se přičtou náklady na dopravu zásilky do EU, podle<br />
příslušných ustanovení zákona o DPH.<br />
<br />
Celní dluh, jehož součástí je i DPH, se vyměří v českých korunách z celní<br />
hodnoty převedené na české koruny v kurzu platném pro příslušné období.<br />
Aktuální kurzy měn jsou uveřejněny na stránkách Celní správy České republiky<br />
www.cs.mfcr.cz cestou Servis - Kurzovní lístky.</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Group_salesTalk:Group sales2008-05-22T21:03:50Z<p>Mivaho: /* The Netherlands */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
== England ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}<br />
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?<br />
<br />
:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.<br />
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
::Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====<br />
<br />
I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?<br />
<br />
I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?<br />
<br />
In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(<br />
<br />
:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] - [mailto:stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk let me know] if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
<br />
Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)<br />
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.<br />
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but<br />
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}<br />
<br />
<br />
Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php<br />
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen<br />
<br />
Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van <br />
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd <br />
zou willen zien worden.<br />
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie <br />
over het te leveren artikel.<br />
<br />
Uw naam J. de Haan<br />
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
Artikelinformatie<br />
Merk openmoko<br />
Naam freerunner<br />
Website openmoko.com<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen <br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor <br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail <br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
E-mailcontact - verzonden<br />
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.<br />
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)<br />
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not<br />
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out <br />
on Utrecht CS :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)<br />
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? <br /><br />
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1." <br />
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.<br />
<br />
{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will have 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Belgium Belgium]. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.<br />
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:<br />
<br />
Geachte heer,<br />
<br />
Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
<br />
Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx<br />
Product Management / Technical Support<br />
<br />
Salland Automatisering<br />
<br />
Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post. <br /><br />
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.<br />
from Jan de Haan <haan.j.de@gmail.com><br />
to inkoop@azerty.nl,<br />
date Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM<br />
subject Openmoko - Freerunner<br />
mailed-by gmail.com<br />
<br />
hide details 8:52 PM (0 minutes ago)<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen<br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor<br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
Een importeur schijnt trisoft.de te zijn. Let wel: dit product is<br />
nog niet op de markt,<br />
al zijn de laatste test productie runs klaar.<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail<br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken. <br /><br />
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):<br />
<br />
=== Votes for a reseller ===<br />
{|border=1<br />
!Name<br />
!Trisoft<br />
!Open Source Nieuws Nederland<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (Subject to a solution for warranty)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[Special:Emailuser/User:PWerken|Peter van de Werken]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (note: I'll buy 2 Freerunners)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (If warranty is OK)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|'''Total'''<br />
|<br />
|10<br />
|}<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:<br />
Beste Yorick,<br />
<br />
Bedankt voor je mail en informatie; ik kende de toestellen niet, maar zou ze<br />
best eens van dichtbij willen bekijken. Het 'developer' model lijkt me dan<br />
echter weer minder interessant voor ons; het 'consumer' model zou eind 2008<br />
op de markt moeten komen?<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
With kind regards,<br />
<br />
Michael Brus<br />
Manager PDAshop<br />
<br />
<br />
Coolblue<br />
Molenbaan 11 . 2908 LL Capelle a/d IJssel . www.coolblue.nl<br />
<br />
Coolblue is...<br />
MP3shop.nl . PDAshop.nl . Digicamshop.nl . GPSshop.nl .<br />
Smartphoneshop.nl . Consoleshop.nl . Telefoonshop.nl . meer...<br />
<br />
Should I forward this to Michael Shiloh?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 07/05} I'll vote to wait until there are actually phones shipping, until that time, the more people we gather here, and maybe other dealers, the better the deal we get(I hope).<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 08/05} <br />
Well, I want to have the phone as soon as possible. The best deal ever isn't my main concern.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 13/05}<br />
I've been browsing the mailing list, and found [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/016971.html this post] from Openmoko's Steve. Group sales have 28 days of DOA (Dead On Arrival) coverage, and single sales have 14 days of DOA coverage. Which I think is reasonable. BTW, I don't think there will be a better deal than the $369 per phone for the 10-pack. <br /><br />
We currently have enough people to fill 2 10-packs, which is awesome! <br /><br />
What we do need to figure out are the import costs, and the shipping costs. (it's shipped via UPS, if I recall correctly from the mailing list.)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 22/05}<br />
<br />
I wouldn't be too sure that this is financially going to be the best deal. This message in the community mailing list (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017668.html) shows interesting info regarding Pulster.<br />
----<br />
''Christph Pulster wrote:<br />
''> about 10 pack orders - we try to be cheaper than the 10-order-<br />
''> pack-price ! so no need to collect ten local buyers.<br />
<br />
''This sounds so good...! I'm waiting for official news (and maybe infos <br />
about the gifts too)...''<br />
----<br />
'''I checked their webpage and they advertise with OpenMoko Freerunner 299 eur'''<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 22/05} I checked their website too and it says 'Sobald der Freerunner wirklich lieferbar ist, ist er an dieser Stelle mit konkretem Preis zu finden und real bestellbar.' Which could mean that the price will be something other than 299 euro.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I like the pulster deal a lot, even if they are the same price as buying the 10 pack in the US the warranty part is a lot better seeing Germany is next door to us. Only thing is that you would mis out on the pouch and headset, dunno if that's such a great loss. And they say they will be going under the price of the US 10 pack order if you order the 10 from them. So maybe a vote on yes or no to the pouch/headset deal? Maybe we should check if with Pulster a group order of 10+ will always give the discount. Like 22 will get the same discount and that we are not forced in getting groups of ten people.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I wrote an e-mail to pulster with the questions so I will post the answer here when I get one.<br />
<br />
== Belgium ==<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 20/04} I'm from Belgium, would shipping be possible to Belgium? I'm very interested. thanks.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:<br />
Beste Yorick,<br />
<br />
Bedankt voor je mail en informatie; ik kende de toestellen niet, maar zou ze<br />
best eens van dichtbij willen bekijken. Het 'developer' model lijkt me dan<br />
echter weer minder interessant voor ons; het 'consumer' model zou eind 2008<br />
op de markt moeten komen?<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
With kind regards,<br />
<br />
Michael Brus<br />
Manager PDAshop<br />
<br />
<br />
Coolblue<br />
Molenbaan 11 . 2908 LL Capelle a/d IJssel . www.coolblue.nl<br />
<br />
Coolblue is...<br />
MP3shop.nl . PDAshop.nl . Digicamshop.nl . GPSshop.nl .<br />
Smartphoneshop.nl . Consoleshop.nl . Telefoonshop.nl . meer...<br />
<br />
Should I forward this to Michael Shiloh?<br />
<br />
== Canada ==<br />
==== GTA (Toronto) ====<br />
{ --[[User:Argo|Argo]] 03:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC) }<br />
For group 1 it looks like they have actually gotten the 10 orders in? or am I them adding up wrong?<br />
<br />
== Croatia ==<br />
{--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 14:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)} '''ja ne bih da već sada radimo pan-balkansku grupu, iskreno sam iznenađen odazivom do sada, pa jedino možda ako ne skupimo dovoljno ljudi do kraja ovog tjedna...'''<br />
<br />
moj post sa hr.comp.os.linux upućen mnalisu;<br />
<br />
> BTW, ti si zapravo kontaktirao HULK i rekli su ti da bi to oni isli raditi i<br />
<br />
> gnjaviti se sa svim tim, ili ih cisto spominjes onako u smislu "pa oni su<br />
<br />
> dragi ljudi, sigurno ce besplatno uloziti mjesece svog zivota u to u zamjenu<br />
<br />
> za pivu" ?<br />
<br />
Davio sam ih malo zadnja dva dana na IRCu, i prema logu načelno su za<br />
da se narudžbe hendlaju preko njih. A i mislim da se ipak ne radi o<br />
mjesecima života bačenih za pivu, more like možda 2-3 sata za gajbu<br />
ili dvije :), hell ako je toliko teško napravit ću ja sve, učlanit se<br />
u HULK ako treba<br />
<br />
ali do toga trenutka ovako ja razmišljam:<br />
<br />
1.) skupimo 10 zainteresiranih<br />
2.) ja nazovem carinu i agenciju za telekomunikacije<br />
3.) pitamo openmoko za shipping estimate<br />
4.) ako su svi i dalje za, skupljanje sredstava i na kraju narudžba<br />
<br />
dakle ništa nije obligatory, idemo step by step, onog trenutka kada se<br />
prijavi 10 ljudi na wikiju ja zovem nadležne službe, pa ćemo vidit di<br />
stojimo sa uvozom i tim''<br />
<br />
nemoj odmah "worst case scenario" :)<br />
<br />
>> mozda da se malo na elitesecurity.org pokrene rasprava?<br />
<br />
--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 10:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC) svakako, ja sam za<br />
<br />
== Czech Republic ==<br />
Distribuční seznam, základní informace naleznete v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Czech_Republic GroupSales]<br />
<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Diskuze Diskuze]<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Dopl.C5.88uj.C3.ADc.C3.AD_informace Doplňující informace]<br />
<br />
=== Diskuze ===<br />
''Martin Holec''> Máme tu 4x ze Zlína, co kdyby někdo jel do Brna pro 4ks a ve Zlíně by se rozdělili?<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> jak jsem psal, já do Zlína jezdívám, a od května do září budu ve Zlíně velmi často, takže se Zlínem není vůbec problém.<br />
<br />
Jinak už se objevily nějaké termíny. Jestli jsem to dobře pochopil, tak 9.5. by už mohla začít masová výroba a brzy na to by měl začít prodej...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak by měl vlastně vypadat? Takový ten bíly se mně moc nelíbí. Radši bych měl [http://http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:FIC-neo1973_small.jpg černý].<br />
<br />
''Michal Pěnka''> Protože jsem jedenáctý a nevím, jestli bude možné objednat 11 kusů nebo jen po desítkách, domluvím se s Tomem Vargou později (jestli by byl ochotný pro převoz do Prahy), každopádně bych také raději ten černý.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak to tak tady pročítám tak to půjde objednat za zvýhodněnou cenu (+pytlík? a headset) opravdu jenom po desítkách. Ale IMHO když této stránce zvedneme popularitu (případně přiberem Slováky) tak jich budem nakonec brát minimálně dvacet ;) Mně osobně připadá datum 9.5. hodně optimistické.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> FreeRunner bude pouze v jedné barevné variantě, a to černý. To datum 9.5. mám [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates odsud]<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>Nemáte někdo fotku freerunnera ? na wiki jsem zatím našel jenom fotky GTA1-čky<br />
<br />
''David Kozub''>> Jelikoz se vyskytuju ve Zline i v Praze, muzu zajistit prevoz do Prahy.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No tak například tady to máš dokonce na videu: http://youtube.com/watch?v=k9QLdK6pFCI ;-) Ale jinak i na wiki se povalují fotky FreeRunnera. Například hned ta první na hlavní stránce ;-)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> To video je parádní. Co se týče té fotky z úvodu wiki, myslel jsem, že je to jenom render. Jinak jak jsem tak bloudil po stránkách české pošty - nejlevněj to nejspíš vyjde poslat jako profibalík za myslím že 64korun. Za dobírku se něco ještě připlácí. Balík je pojištěný do 100 000. [http://www.cpost.cz:80/jetspeed/portal/media-type/html/user/anon/page/default.psml/js_pane/sluzbyonline%2Czasilky?docid=370&calc_lb0=10424&calc_cb0=1 více zde]<br />
<br />
ad. '''Praha (Čechy):'''<br />
<br />
''Tom Varga''>> Pokoušel jsem se vyčíst z mailing listu, jak je to s tou množstevní slevou - co jsem z toho pochopil, tak by neměl být problém objednat množství nedělitené desíti, ale ty kusy navíc jsou pak [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016432.html bez slevy] a [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016202.html bez bonusu]; pořád by se to ale vyplatilo skrze poštovné. Prozatím bych navrhl, aby se zájemci z Prahy (Čech) zapsali / potvrdili smazáním otazníku v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu], možná něco podobného pro Slovensko - momentálně to vypadá, že bude snazší sehnat 20 zájemců celkem a taky by se tím mohla situace trochu vyjasnit. Osobně jsem schopen zajistit dovoz z Brna do Prahy, Liberce, Jablonce n.N. a přilehlých končin. Případné návrhy sem ;)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>> Řekl bych že čím větší balík poletí za Ameriky sem tím levněj to vyjde. Pokud není poštovné na gramy. 20-ti zájemců se určitě dočkáme. Když počítám Františka Horínka z Bratislavy tak je nás 18. Co se týče bonusů na headsetu moc nelpím ale ten pytel by se mně vážně hodil. Často v kapse kombinuju mobil a klíče nebo šroubovák...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>> Poštovné samozřejmě není na gramy, ale na libry, neboli každých započatých 0.45 kg se platí, plus se poštovné započítává do cla, mimochodem taková zásilka asi jen tak přes celnici neprojde, takže je možné, že nikdo (příjemce) bude muset dodat na celnici případné dokumenty dokladující hodnotu zasílaného zboží.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>> Tak dle "platného" celního sazebníku by se clo nemělo platit. Viz [http://disk.jabbim.cz/ivir@jabbim.com/celni_sazebnik.pdf Sazebník] strana 568. Tedy by se hradilo pouze DPH. Aspoň si myslím, že 20 telefonů jako "dárek" asi neprojde.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>>> No tím lépe, ale tak já to beztak myslel jako celý celní dluh a to dph je právě i z poštovného.<br />
<br />
''Miloslav Machotka''> Koukám že jsem trochu zaspal dění. :) V [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu] jsem se připsal k Praze. Mám to nejblíž, jsem z Vlašimi, ale jinak jsem pro to schopen dojet i do Brna. Jsem pro to aby se to vyřešilo, pokud možno, po desítkách a pak to rozvést (rozeslat) po Čechách a Slovensku. Bonusy se asi většině lidí hodí.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>>>>> DPH musíme taky platit ?? To je mrzuté. Kolik mají DPH slováci ? nevyšlo by to levněj poslat do Bratislavy a stama ''"propašovat"'' k nám ? Když už máme ten šengen... Nevrátí nám třeba amíci DPH které za to zaplatili u nich ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>>>>> Co je mi známo, tak při obchodování mimo zemi se DPH neúčtuje a účtuje se až v cílové zemi. Dle rok starého článku na měšci je základní sazba stejná, tj. 19%. Od DPH by to šlo odprostit pouze pokud by na tom balíku bylo napsáno, že se jedná o dárek. Pak se na to daň neuplatní. Jakmile se mi povede najít ustanovení/článek, tak jsem dám odkaz.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No ono je stále ještě otázkou, odkud to vůbec budou posílat. Protože sem někde viděl informace, že se budou snažit zásobovat Evropu z nějakého centra v Evropě. O tom dárku jsem taky slyšel, ale prej to taky není zaručený způsob. Celníci se do toho můžou podívat, a uvalit na to daň podle vlastního rozhodnutí (prej). Jinak ale je tu ještě možnost, že by nám to někdo dovezl. Nevíte jak to funguje v tom případě?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>To centrum v Evropě bylo v plánu avšak levněji jim to vyjde posílání z Ameriky, takže bude k dispozici jen jedno centrum v USA. Ohledně toho dárku jsem doposud četl, že jeho částka nesmí přesáhnout 55€, jinak je normálně proclíván. Při osobním převozu jsou nastaveny limity výše viz [http://www.celnisprava.cz/CmsGrc/Cestovani-a-nakupy/Jak-se-chovat/mimo-eu.htm celní správa].<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Kdyby vezl dva tři tak by možná ukecal že je to dárek ale dvacet... clo vem čert to bude nanejvýš 3,5% což není taková pálka. Spíš kdy se to DPH z toho platí ? Hned na celnici nebo musím podat něco jako daňové přiznání ?<br />
* No tak zatím jsem zjistil že nejspíš jediná šance jak se osvobodit od cla a DPH je že všeci sedem do letadla a zajedem si pro to. Limit je 6000kč na jednu osobu starší 15-ti let.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mares''>>>> Clo se na tento druh zboží nevztahuje. Platí se pouze české DPH, který ti celníci vyměří z ''ceny zboží + doprava + clo'', pak ti v případě fyzické osoby zašlou na tvou poštu, kde uhradíš DPH jako dobírku. U podnikatele je to trošku jiné. VAT (čili americké DPH) na zboží nebude uvaleno, jelikož zboží je vyváženo z USA.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No a dá se tohle spočítat předem? Abysme mohli stanovit cenu?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> No dokud nebude jasne kolik bude stat postovne (typ + vaha) a jaky bude kurs dolaru, tak presna cena asi tezko.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>No co. Tak ti každý pošlem sedm tisíc s tím, že potom přebytky rozdělíš do obálek a budeš předávat s každým telefonem obálku. Jinak to asi dost dobře nepůjde. Jedině že by nám to sem dopravila česká pobočka FIC-u/foxconn. Ale to je podle mně nepravděpodobné.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>JJ take myslim, ze bych dal predbeznou cenu 7K s tim, ze uz je poslem, at muzes pruzne zareagovat a ne pak cekat az vsichni poslou.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>> Kdyby se zase Steve nebo někdo vyjádřil v jakém je to stavu a přidal předběžný odhad kdy se začne prodávat. Teďka je to těžko. Můžou ho vydat zítra ale taky třeba i za půl roku pokud se objeví nějaký složitý problém.<br />
Ještě k té předběžné ceně - dolar není za 15 korun ale za 16,1-16,2 korun I s DPH se do těch 7000 nespíš nevejdem. Jestli že se domluvíme žo začnem posílat peníze tak navrhuju posílat 7500. IMHO dolar už níž nepůjde.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Co jsem se zatím díval na možnosti přepravy (DHL,Fedex,UPS,USPS), tak nejvýhodněji vychází USPS ([http://www.usps.com/ usps.com]), kdy se pohybujeme kolem částky 120$ i s pojištěním (kdyby to bylo cca 10kg což pochybuji). Bohužel maximální pojištění činí 5 000$, přičemž celková částka balíku vychází na cca 7 580$ . U ostatních jsem ohledně pojištění nenašel zmínku, přičemž poštovné vycházelo většinou přes 500$. Z pohledu pojištění by bylo vhodné objednávky rozdělit. Ještě bude záležet jaké poštovní služby nabídnou v e-shopu. Včera u ČSOB byla prodejní cena dolaru na 16,44Kč/$ a musím bohužel souhlasit, že lepší to už nebude. Jinak ceník je k dispozici na této adrese [http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781 http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781] .<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Teď mně napadlo - co kdyby jsem někde založili učet (nejlépe spořící) v dolarech a poslali to tam teď ? [http://www.mesec.cz/clanky/ucet-v-cizi-mene-ano-ale-kde/] Kdyby tak člověk věděl že pozítru neoznámí prodej...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>> Tak urcite bych pockal s placenim na nejake jistejsi vyjadreni, ale necekal bych na otevreni kramu, tehdy uz by chtelo, aby se to dalo hned objednat, co se tyka uctu neverim, ze dolar spadne, ale ani ze poroste a tak bych to neresil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vzhledem k množství objednávaného zboží bych možná už využil dopravních společností, které za nás provedou celní odbavení. Aspoň metodický pokyny k vyplnění JSD (jednotný správní doklad) nejsou triviální a zabere to minimálně půlden. Ukázku dokumentu jsme nalezl zde: [http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/ http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/].<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> Dole v tom dopisu z celního úřadu se píše: "který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost" to nikdo z nás má?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >> '''[http://www.trisoft.de/en_freerunner.htm Evropský Distributor]''', ale je celkem dražší.<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Což o to, [http://www.pulster.de/ tady] je o 50 euro levnější, ale nemyslím si, že to bude ve výsledku výhodnější.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>> Co jsem se díval do pokynů, tak to může vyplnit i fyzická osoba, jelikož každý způsobilý občan může provést obchodní činnost. Pouze nesmí být opakovaného rázu, tj. jednorázové obchody. Zkusím se tedy dotázat konkrétněji na tuto část. Ohledně toho evropského distributora nevím. Odhadem to vychází přes 1000 Kč dráž bez poštovného a bez bonusů. Jestliže se nám poradí vyřešit problém s celním úřadem, tak bych spíše volil objednávku z USA. Připadá mi, že tyhle obchody to jen objednají v USA, přijmou a přepošlou s přirážkou.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >>>> Take jsem pro USA, jen sem to nasel a ac ten od Radka Machulky je uz zajimavejsi tak verim, ze se dostanem i pod nej a jeste je tam ten obal a sluchatka.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Já jsem též pro USA. Ještě by bylo možné (teoreticky) zkusit si to objednat přes nějakého (mešího) obchodníka co bere věci od FIC-u<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''> Tož sem [[GroupSales#Aktu.C3.A1ln.C4.9B|vyhlásil konkurz]] na koordinátora pražské větve a snad se najde někdo kdo je schopen se vejít do těch zásadních bodů co jsem tam nastínil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Relativně požadavky splňuji. Mám studentský ČSOB účet mající limit na 1,5M, kartu Visa Classic, angličtinu zvládám na úrovni čtení technické dokumentace, bydlím na Barrandově a jabber též mám (ivir@jabbim.com). Jen tu důvěryhodnost nemám. :) S tím clem to bude ještě zajímavé, ale snad mi ohledně toho ještě poradí z celního úřadu. V nouzi mám k dispozici i OSVČ. :)<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Dle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017531.html příspěvku] bude dovoz zboží do USA zahájen někdy 1.června. K tomu je nutné připočítat min. týden až 3 než zboží dorazí do skladů. Z příspěvku teoreticky vyplývá, že bude i evropský HUB. Snad to bude za stejnou částku a s bonusy. :)<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>Podle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017607.html příspěvku] by měl webový shop odkazovat na us i eu a to vypadá čím dál nadějnějš co se týká poštovného aj cla.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' jestli to dobře překládám tak není jasné jakým způsobem to půjde z činy - jestli lodí nebo letadlem ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Ano, aspoň takto jsem to pochopil i já. Problémem je ta doba dodání. Jinak co se týká vyřízení JSD (cla), tak u zprostředkovatele [http://www.kama-eu.cz/ KAMA s.r.o.>, jež mi doporučil celní úřad, vychází na cca 1000 Kč viz ceník, což mi připadá přijatelné.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No mně ty informace od Steva přijdou vždycky nějaké zmatené. Nevědí jestli lodí nebo letadlem, ale odejít by to snad mělo až 1.6. (nebo co má znamenat to datum, v jeho zprávě), takže to ještě docela potrvá... :-(<br />
Jan Mareš: můžeš prosím popsat co přesně má být těch 1000Kč a jak se na to přijde? Já tomu pořád nějak nerozumím...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> <font color="gray">best case is I would start to test phones around the first of june. Then<br />
pack and ship.<br />
</font>1.6. začíná testovat telefony a potm je balit a odesílat.<br><br />
<font color=gray>The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically you<br />
build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy% pass the test, and the factory says.<br />
"good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on the<br />
test software, because that bad phone really was good." arrg.</font> Ale toto nějak moc nechápu.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vychází to takto: 250 Kč (vypracování JSD), 30 Kč (vypracování hodnoty), 250 Kč (jednani za deklaranta), 30 Kč (avízo) a pak asi ručení (350). Je to můj odhad a po konkrétním dotaze by měli sdělit částku. Asi tedy bude třeba připočítat poštovné (250 Kč). Zatím jsem jim napsal dotaz ohledně nepodnikající osoby s tímto množstvím, tak jsem zvědav kdy odpoví.<br />
Tu další část považuji za povzdychnutí, kdy jim vyrobili více telefonů z nichž jen část prošla a továrna chce tohle číslo minimalizovat a že dané chyby byly spíše SW povahy.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' Podle toho co píšeš bych řekl že by vyšlo levněj kdyby jsme brali všechny telefony dohromady.Jaké má výhody osamostatnění Prahy ?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' No nedokazeme pojistit 30telefonu na jejich cenu pri doprave, ale jinak pokud by to clo vyrizovala firma asi by to bylo vyhodnejsi.<br />
<br />
=== Doplňující informace ===<br />
* '''Moje komunikace s pobočkou FIC v ČR:'''<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
Taiwanský FIC v nejbližších dnech začne s prodejem mobilního telefonu<br />
Neo FreeRunner (www.openmoko.com). Chci se zeptat, jestli bude možné případné<br />
reklamace a opravy řešit u vás?<br />
<br />
Zatím není známý přesný způsob distribuce tohoto telefonu pro Evropu<br />
a Českou republiku. Nebude vaše pobočka zapojena do distribuční sítě?<br />
<br />
Děkuji za odpověď, Martin Šenkeřík<br />
Odpověď:<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
FIC CZ s.r.o. v těchto měsících přechází pod Foxconn CZ.<br />
V případě reklamace či informací se obracejte přímo na FIC TW.<br />
Kontaktní osobou na Zákaznickém oddělení je<br />
<br />
Mr. James Chang<br />
Customer Service Department<br />
Te.: +886 2 8751 8751 ext.6196<br />
James_chang@fic.com.tw<br />
<br />
S pozdravem<br />
<br />
Jarka Ripplova<br />
<br />
* '''Dotaz na celní úřad ohledně zpracování zásilky:'''<br />
Věc: Informace<br />
<br />
K Vaší žádosti o informaci týkající se hromadného dovozu zásilky pro osobní<br />
potřebu více příjemců Vám sdělujeme:<br />
<br />
Za zásilku zboží neobchodní povahy se ve smyslu celních předpisů považují<br />
zásilky, které jsou dováženy příležitostně a které obsahují výhradně zboží<br />
určené k osobnímu užití příjemců nebo jejich rodin, přičemž toto zboží nesmí<br />
povahou ani množstvím svědčit o obchodním úmyslu dovozce. Z uvedeného<br />
vyplývá, že tzv. sběrná zásilka nemůže být považována za zásilku zboží<br />
neobchodní povahy, i když obsah je určen pro osobní potřebu soukromých osob.<br />
Při dovozu zásilky obchodní povahy je zásilka zadržena při vstupu na celní<br />
území EU a příjemce vyzván k předložení celního prohlášení. Celní formality<br />
uskutečňuje příjemce, který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost.<br />
<br />
Pro zboží zařazené v některé z podpoložek čísla 8517 je celním sazebníkem EU<br />
stanovena sazba cla 0 %. Při dovozu zásilky zboží obchodního charakteru<br />
celní orgány posuzují, zda zboží nepodléhá zvláštnímu řízení podle zákona č.<br />
38/1994 Sb., o zahraničním obchodu s vojenským materiálem. Vedle cla se při<br />
propuštění dovezeného zboží do volného oběhu v tuzemsku vyměřuje DPH v<br />
základní sazbě 19 %. Základem pro vyměření DPH je cena, za kterou bylo zboží<br />
prodáno do EU, ke které se přičtou náklady na dopravu zásilky do EU, podle<br />
příslušných ustanovení zákona o DPH.<br />
<br />
Celní dluh, jehož součástí je i DPH, se vyměří v českých korunách z celní<br />
hodnoty převedené na české koruny v kurzu platném pro příslušné období.<br />
Aktuální kurzy měn jsou uveřejněny na stránkách Celní správy České republiky<br />
www.cs.mfcr.cz cestou Servis - Kurzovní lístky.</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Group_salesTalk:Group sales2008-05-22T20:56:38Z<p>Mivaho: /* The Netherlands */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
== England ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}<br />
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?<br />
<br />
:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.<br />
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
::Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====<br />
<br />
I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?<br />
<br />
I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?<br />
<br />
In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(<br />
<br />
:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] - [mailto:stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk let me know] if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
<br />
Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)<br />
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.<br />
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but<br />
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}<br />
<br />
<br />
Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php<br />
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen<br />
<br />
Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van <br />
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd <br />
zou willen zien worden.<br />
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie <br />
over het te leveren artikel.<br />
<br />
Uw naam J. de Haan<br />
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
Artikelinformatie<br />
Merk openmoko<br />
Naam freerunner<br />
Website openmoko.com<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen <br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor <br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail <br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
E-mailcontact - verzonden<br />
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.<br />
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)<br />
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not<br />
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out <br />
on Utrecht CS :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)<br />
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? <br /><br />
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1." <br />
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.<br />
<br />
{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will have 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Belgium Belgium]. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.<br />
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:<br />
<br />
Geachte heer,<br />
<br />
Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
<br />
Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx<br />
Product Management / Technical Support<br />
<br />
Salland Automatisering<br />
<br />
Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post. <br /><br />
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.<br />
from Jan de Haan <haan.j.de@gmail.com><br />
to inkoop@azerty.nl,<br />
date Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM<br />
subject Openmoko - Freerunner<br />
mailed-by gmail.com<br />
<br />
hide details 8:52 PM (0 minutes ago)<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen<br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor<br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
Een importeur schijnt trisoft.de te zijn. Let wel: dit product is<br />
nog niet op de markt,<br />
al zijn de laatste test productie runs klaar.<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail<br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken. <br /><br />
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):<br />
<br />
=== Votes for a reseller ===<br />
{|border=1<br />
!Name<br />
!Trisoft<br />
!Open Source Nieuws Nederland<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (Subject to a solution for warranty)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[Special:Emailuser/User:PWerken|Peter van de Werken]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (note: I'll buy 2 Freerunners)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (If warranty is OK)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|'''Total'''<br />
|<br />
|10<br />
|}<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:<br />
Beste Yorick,<br />
<br />
Bedankt voor je mail en informatie; ik kende de toestellen niet, maar zou ze<br />
best eens van dichtbij willen bekijken. Het 'developer' model lijkt me dan<br />
echter weer minder interessant voor ons; het 'consumer' model zou eind 2008<br />
op de markt moeten komen?<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
With kind regards,<br />
<br />
Michael Brus<br />
Manager PDAshop<br />
<br />
<br />
Coolblue<br />
Molenbaan 11 . 2908 LL Capelle a/d IJssel . www.coolblue.nl<br />
<br />
Coolblue is...<br />
MP3shop.nl . PDAshop.nl . Digicamshop.nl . GPSshop.nl .<br />
Smartphoneshop.nl . Consoleshop.nl . Telefoonshop.nl . meer...<br />
<br />
Should I forward this to Michael Shiloh?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 07/05} I'll vote to wait until there are actually phones shipping, until that time, the more people we gather here, and maybe other dealers, the better the deal we get(I hope).<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 08/05} <br />
Well, I want to have the phone as soon as possible. The best deal ever isn't my main concern.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 13/05}<br />
I've been browsing the mailing list, and found [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/016971.html this post] from Openmoko's Steve. Group sales have 28 days of DOA (Dead On Arrival) coverage, and single sales have 14 days of DOA coverage. Which I think is reasonable. BTW, I don't think there will be a better deal than the $369 per phone for the 10-pack. <br /><br />
We currently have enough people to fill 2 10-packs, which is awesome! <br /><br />
What we do need to figure out are the import costs, and the shipping costs. (it's shipped via UPS, if I recall correctly from the mailing list.)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 22/05}<br />
<br />
I wouldn't be too sure that this is financially going to be the best deal. This message in the community mailing list (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017668.html) shows interesting info regarding Pulster.<br />
----<br />
''Christph Pulster wrote:<br />
''> about 10 pack orders - we try to be cheaper than the 10-order-<br />
''> pack-price ! so no need to collect ten local buyers.<br />
<br />
''This sounds so good...! I'm waiting for official news (and maybe infos <br />
about the gifts too)...''<br />
----<br />
'''I checked their webpage and they advertise with OpenMoko Freerunner 299 eur'''<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 22/05} I checked their website too and it says 'Sobald der Freerunner wirklich lieferbar ist, ist er an dieser Stelle mit konkretem Preis zu finden und real bestellbar.' Which could mean that the price will be something other than 299 euro.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I like the pulster deal a lot, even if they are the same price as buying the 10 pack in the US the warranty part is a lot better seeing Germany is next door to us. Only thing is that you would mis out on the pouch and headset, dunno if that's such a great loss. And they say they will be going under the price of the US 10 pack order if you order the 10 from them. So maybe a vote on yes or no to the pouch/headset deal? Maybe we should check if with Pulster a group order of 10+ will always give the discount. Like 22 will get the same discount and that we are not forced in getting groups of ten people.<br />
<br />
== Belgium ==<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 20/04} I'm from Belgium, would shipping be possible to Belgium? I'm very interested. thanks.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:<br />
Beste Yorick,<br />
<br />
Bedankt voor je mail en informatie; ik kende de toestellen niet, maar zou ze<br />
best eens van dichtbij willen bekijken. Het 'developer' model lijkt me dan<br />
echter weer minder interessant voor ons; het 'consumer' model zou eind 2008<br />
op de markt moeten komen?<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
With kind regards,<br />
<br />
Michael Brus<br />
Manager PDAshop<br />
<br />
<br />
Coolblue<br />
Molenbaan 11 . 2908 LL Capelle a/d IJssel . www.coolblue.nl<br />
<br />
Coolblue is...<br />
MP3shop.nl . PDAshop.nl . Digicamshop.nl . GPSshop.nl .<br />
Smartphoneshop.nl . Consoleshop.nl . Telefoonshop.nl . meer...<br />
<br />
Should I forward this to Michael Shiloh?<br />
<br />
== Canada ==<br />
==== GTA (Toronto) ====<br />
{ --[[User:Argo|Argo]] 03:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC) }<br />
For group 1 it looks like they have actually gotten the 10 orders in? or am I them adding up wrong?<br />
<br />
== Croatia ==<br />
{--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 14:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)} '''ja ne bih da već sada radimo pan-balkansku grupu, iskreno sam iznenađen odazivom do sada, pa jedino možda ako ne skupimo dovoljno ljudi do kraja ovog tjedna...'''<br />
<br />
moj post sa hr.comp.os.linux upućen mnalisu;<br />
<br />
> BTW, ti si zapravo kontaktirao HULK i rekli su ti da bi to oni isli raditi i<br />
<br />
> gnjaviti se sa svim tim, ili ih cisto spominjes onako u smislu "pa oni su<br />
<br />
> dragi ljudi, sigurno ce besplatno uloziti mjesece svog zivota u to u zamjenu<br />
<br />
> za pivu" ?<br />
<br />
Davio sam ih malo zadnja dva dana na IRCu, i prema logu načelno su za<br />
da se narudžbe hendlaju preko njih. A i mislim da se ipak ne radi o<br />
mjesecima života bačenih za pivu, more like možda 2-3 sata za gajbu<br />
ili dvije :), hell ako je toliko teško napravit ću ja sve, učlanit se<br />
u HULK ako treba<br />
<br />
ali do toga trenutka ovako ja razmišljam:<br />
<br />
1.) skupimo 10 zainteresiranih<br />
2.) ja nazovem carinu i agenciju za telekomunikacije<br />
3.) pitamo openmoko za shipping estimate<br />
4.) ako su svi i dalje za, skupljanje sredstava i na kraju narudžba<br />
<br />
dakle ništa nije obligatory, idemo step by step, onog trenutka kada se<br />
prijavi 10 ljudi na wikiju ja zovem nadležne službe, pa ćemo vidit di<br />
stojimo sa uvozom i tim''<br />
<br />
nemoj odmah "worst case scenario" :)<br />
<br />
>> mozda da se malo na elitesecurity.org pokrene rasprava?<br />
<br />
--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 10:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC) svakako, ja sam za<br />
<br />
== Czech Republic ==<br />
Distribuční seznam, základní informace naleznete v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Czech_Republic GroupSales]<br />
<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Diskuze Diskuze]<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Dopl.C5.88uj.C3.ADc.C3.AD_informace Doplňující informace]<br />
<br />
=== Diskuze ===<br />
''Martin Holec''> Máme tu 4x ze Zlína, co kdyby někdo jel do Brna pro 4ks a ve Zlíně by se rozdělili?<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> jak jsem psal, já do Zlína jezdívám, a od května do září budu ve Zlíně velmi často, takže se Zlínem není vůbec problém.<br />
<br />
Jinak už se objevily nějaké termíny. Jestli jsem to dobře pochopil, tak 9.5. by už mohla začít masová výroba a brzy na to by měl začít prodej...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak by měl vlastně vypadat? Takový ten bíly se mně moc nelíbí. Radši bych měl [http://http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:FIC-neo1973_small.jpg černý].<br />
<br />
''Michal Pěnka''> Protože jsem jedenáctý a nevím, jestli bude možné objednat 11 kusů nebo jen po desítkách, domluvím se s Tomem Vargou později (jestli by byl ochotný pro převoz do Prahy), každopádně bych také raději ten černý.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak to tak tady pročítám tak to půjde objednat za zvýhodněnou cenu (+pytlík? a headset) opravdu jenom po desítkách. Ale IMHO když této stránce zvedneme popularitu (případně přiberem Slováky) tak jich budem nakonec brát minimálně dvacet ;) Mně osobně připadá datum 9.5. hodně optimistické.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> FreeRunner bude pouze v jedné barevné variantě, a to černý. To datum 9.5. mám [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates odsud]<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>Nemáte někdo fotku freerunnera ? na wiki jsem zatím našel jenom fotky GTA1-čky<br />
<br />
''David Kozub''>> Jelikoz se vyskytuju ve Zline i v Praze, muzu zajistit prevoz do Prahy.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No tak například tady to máš dokonce na videu: http://youtube.com/watch?v=k9QLdK6pFCI ;-) Ale jinak i na wiki se povalují fotky FreeRunnera. Například hned ta první na hlavní stránce ;-)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> To video je parádní. Co se týče té fotky z úvodu wiki, myslel jsem, že je to jenom render. Jinak jak jsem tak bloudil po stránkách české pošty - nejlevněj to nejspíš vyjde poslat jako profibalík za myslím že 64korun. Za dobírku se něco ještě připlácí. Balík je pojištěný do 100 000. [http://www.cpost.cz:80/jetspeed/portal/media-type/html/user/anon/page/default.psml/js_pane/sluzbyonline%2Czasilky?docid=370&calc_lb0=10424&calc_cb0=1 více zde]<br />
<br />
ad. '''Praha (Čechy):'''<br />
<br />
''Tom Varga''>> Pokoušel jsem se vyčíst z mailing listu, jak je to s tou množstevní slevou - co jsem z toho pochopil, tak by neměl být problém objednat množství nedělitené desíti, ale ty kusy navíc jsou pak [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016432.html bez slevy] a [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016202.html bez bonusu]; pořád by se to ale vyplatilo skrze poštovné. Prozatím bych navrhl, aby se zájemci z Prahy (Čech) zapsali / potvrdili smazáním otazníku v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu], možná něco podobného pro Slovensko - momentálně to vypadá, že bude snazší sehnat 20 zájemců celkem a taky by se tím mohla situace trochu vyjasnit. Osobně jsem schopen zajistit dovoz z Brna do Prahy, Liberce, Jablonce n.N. a přilehlých končin. Případné návrhy sem ;)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>> Řekl bych že čím větší balík poletí za Ameriky sem tím levněj to vyjde. Pokud není poštovné na gramy. 20-ti zájemců se určitě dočkáme. Když počítám Františka Horínka z Bratislavy tak je nás 18. Co se týče bonusů na headsetu moc nelpím ale ten pytel by se mně vážně hodil. Často v kapse kombinuju mobil a klíče nebo šroubovák...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>> Poštovné samozřejmě není na gramy, ale na libry, neboli každých započatých 0.45 kg se platí, plus se poštovné započítává do cla, mimochodem taková zásilka asi jen tak přes celnici neprojde, takže je možné, že nikdo (příjemce) bude muset dodat na celnici případné dokumenty dokladující hodnotu zasílaného zboží.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>> Tak dle "platného" celního sazebníku by se clo nemělo platit. Viz [http://disk.jabbim.cz/ivir@jabbim.com/celni_sazebnik.pdf Sazebník] strana 568. Tedy by se hradilo pouze DPH. Aspoň si myslím, že 20 telefonů jako "dárek" asi neprojde.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>>> No tím lépe, ale tak já to beztak myslel jako celý celní dluh a to dph je právě i z poštovného.<br />
<br />
''Miloslav Machotka''> Koukám že jsem trochu zaspal dění. :) V [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu] jsem se připsal k Praze. Mám to nejblíž, jsem z Vlašimi, ale jinak jsem pro to schopen dojet i do Brna. Jsem pro to aby se to vyřešilo, pokud možno, po desítkách a pak to rozvést (rozeslat) po Čechách a Slovensku. Bonusy se asi většině lidí hodí.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>>>>> DPH musíme taky platit ?? To je mrzuté. Kolik mají DPH slováci ? nevyšlo by to levněj poslat do Bratislavy a stama ''"propašovat"'' k nám ? Když už máme ten šengen... Nevrátí nám třeba amíci DPH které za to zaplatili u nich ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>>>>> Co je mi známo, tak při obchodování mimo zemi se DPH neúčtuje a účtuje se až v cílové zemi. Dle rok starého článku na měšci je základní sazba stejná, tj. 19%. Od DPH by to šlo odprostit pouze pokud by na tom balíku bylo napsáno, že se jedná o dárek. Pak se na to daň neuplatní. Jakmile se mi povede najít ustanovení/článek, tak jsem dám odkaz.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No ono je stále ještě otázkou, odkud to vůbec budou posílat. Protože sem někde viděl informace, že se budou snažit zásobovat Evropu z nějakého centra v Evropě. O tom dárku jsem taky slyšel, ale prej to taky není zaručený způsob. Celníci se do toho můžou podívat, a uvalit na to daň podle vlastního rozhodnutí (prej). Jinak ale je tu ještě možnost, že by nám to někdo dovezl. Nevíte jak to funguje v tom případě?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>To centrum v Evropě bylo v plánu avšak levněji jim to vyjde posílání z Ameriky, takže bude k dispozici jen jedno centrum v USA. Ohledně toho dárku jsem doposud četl, že jeho částka nesmí přesáhnout 55€, jinak je normálně proclíván. Při osobním převozu jsou nastaveny limity výše viz [http://www.celnisprava.cz/CmsGrc/Cestovani-a-nakupy/Jak-se-chovat/mimo-eu.htm celní správa].<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Kdyby vezl dva tři tak by možná ukecal že je to dárek ale dvacet... clo vem čert to bude nanejvýš 3,5% což není taková pálka. Spíš kdy se to DPH z toho platí ? Hned na celnici nebo musím podat něco jako daňové přiznání ?<br />
* No tak zatím jsem zjistil že nejspíš jediná šance jak se osvobodit od cla a DPH je že všeci sedem do letadla a zajedem si pro to. Limit je 6000kč na jednu osobu starší 15-ti let.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mares''>>>> Clo se na tento druh zboží nevztahuje. Platí se pouze české DPH, který ti celníci vyměří z ''ceny zboží + doprava + clo'', pak ti v případě fyzické osoby zašlou na tvou poštu, kde uhradíš DPH jako dobírku. U podnikatele je to trošku jiné. VAT (čili americké DPH) na zboží nebude uvaleno, jelikož zboží je vyváženo z USA.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No a dá se tohle spočítat předem? Abysme mohli stanovit cenu?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> No dokud nebude jasne kolik bude stat postovne (typ + vaha) a jaky bude kurs dolaru, tak presna cena asi tezko.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>No co. Tak ti každý pošlem sedm tisíc s tím, že potom přebytky rozdělíš do obálek a budeš předávat s každým telefonem obálku. Jinak to asi dost dobře nepůjde. Jedině že by nám to sem dopravila česká pobočka FIC-u/foxconn. Ale to je podle mně nepravděpodobné.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>JJ take myslim, ze bych dal predbeznou cenu 7K s tim, ze uz je poslem, at muzes pruzne zareagovat a ne pak cekat az vsichni poslou.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>> Kdyby se zase Steve nebo někdo vyjádřil v jakém je to stavu a přidal předběžný odhad kdy se začne prodávat. Teďka je to těžko. Můžou ho vydat zítra ale taky třeba i za půl roku pokud se objeví nějaký složitý problém.<br />
Ještě k té předběžné ceně - dolar není za 15 korun ale za 16,1-16,2 korun I s DPH se do těch 7000 nespíš nevejdem. Jestli že se domluvíme žo začnem posílat peníze tak navrhuju posílat 7500. IMHO dolar už níž nepůjde.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Co jsem se zatím díval na možnosti přepravy (DHL,Fedex,UPS,USPS), tak nejvýhodněji vychází USPS ([http://www.usps.com/ usps.com]), kdy se pohybujeme kolem částky 120$ i s pojištěním (kdyby to bylo cca 10kg což pochybuji). Bohužel maximální pojištění činí 5 000$, přičemž celková částka balíku vychází na cca 7 580$ . U ostatních jsem ohledně pojištění nenašel zmínku, přičemž poštovné vycházelo většinou přes 500$. Z pohledu pojištění by bylo vhodné objednávky rozdělit. Ještě bude záležet jaké poštovní služby nabídnou v e-shopu. Včera u ČSOB byla prodejní cena dolaru na 16,44Kč/$ a musím bohužel souhlasit, že lepší to už nebude. Jinak ceník je k dispozici na této adrese [http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781 http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781] .<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Teď mně napadlo - co kdyby jsem někde založili učet (nejlépe spořící) v dolarech a poslali to tam teď ? [http://www.mesec.cz/clanky/ucet-v-cizi-mene-ano-ale-kde/] Kdyby tak člověk věděl že pozítru neoznámí prodej...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>> Tak urcite bych pockal s placenim na nejake jistejsi vyjadreni, ale necekal bych na otevreni kramu, tehdy uz by chtelo, aby se to dalo hned objednat, co se tyka uctu neverim, ze dolar spadne, ale ani ze poroste a tak bych to neresil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vzhledem k množství objednávaného zboží bych možná už využil dopravních společností, které za nás provedou celní odbavení. Aspoň metodický pokyny k vyplnění JSD (jednotný správní doklad) nejsou triviální a zabere to minimálně půlden. Ukázku dokumentu jsme nalezl zde: [http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/ http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/].<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> Dole v tom dopisu z celního úřadu se píše: "který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost" to nikdo z nás má?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >> '''[http://www.trisoft.de/en_freerunner.htm Evropský Distributor]''', ale je celkem dražší.<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Což o to, [http://www.pulster.de/ tady] je o 50 euro levnější, ale nemyslím si, že to bude ve výsledku výhodnější.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>> Co jsem se díval do pokynů, tak to může vyplnit i fyzická osoba, jelikož každý způsobilý občan může provést obchodní činnost. Pouze nesmí být opakovaného rázu, tj. jednorázové obchody. Zkusím se tedy dotázat konkrétněji na tuto část. Ohledně toho evropského distributora nevím. Odhadem to vychází přes 1000 Kč dráž bez poštovného a bez bonusů. Jestliže se nám poradí vyřešit problém s celním úřadem, tak bych spíše volil objednávku z USA. Připadá mi, že tyhle obchody to jen objednají v USA, přijmou a přepošlou s přirážkou.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >>>> Take jsem pro USA, jen sem to nasel a ac ten od Radka Machulky je uz zajimavejsi tak verim, ze se dostanem i pod nej a jeste je tam ten obal a sluchatka.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Já jsem též pro USA. Ještě by bylo možné (teoreticky) zkusit si to objednat přes nějakého (mešího) obchodníka co bere věci od FIC-u<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''> Tož sem [[GroupSales#Aktu.C3.A1ln.C4.9B|vyhlásil konkurz]] na koordinátora pražské větve a snad se najde někdo kdo je schopen se vejít do těch zásadních bodů co jsem tam nastínil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Relativně požadavky splňuji. Mám studentský ČSOB účet mající limit na 1,5M, kartu Visa Classic, angličtinu zvládám na úrovni čtení technické dokumentace, bydlím na Barrandově a jabber též mám (ivir@jabbim.com). Jen tu důvěryhodnost nemám. :) S tím clem to bude ještě zajímavé, ale snad mi ohledně toho ještě poradí z celního úřadu. V nouzi mám k dispozici i OSVČ. :)<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Dle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017531.html příspěvku] bude dovoz zboží do USA zahájen někdy 1.června. K tomu je nutné připočítat min. týden až 3 než zboží dorazí do skladů. Z příspěvku teoreticky vyplývá, že bude i evropský HUB. Snad to bude za stejnou částku a s bonusy. :)<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>Podle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017607.html příspěvku] by měl webový shop odkazovat na us i eu a to vypadá čím dál nadějnějš co se týká poštovného aj cla.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' jestli to dobře překládám tak není jasné jakým způsobem to půjde z činy - jestli lodí nebo letadlem ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Ano, aspoň takto jsem to pochopil i já. Problémem je ta doba dodání. Jinak co se týká vyřízení JSD (cla), tak u zprostředkovatele [http://www.kama-eu.cz/ KAMA s.r.o.>, jež mi doporučil celní úřad, vychází na cca 1000 Kč viz ceník, což mi připadá přijatelné.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No mně ty informace od Steva přijdou vždycky nějaké zmatené. Nevědí jestli lodí nebo letadlem, ale odejít by to snad mělo až 1.6. (nebo co má znamenat to datum, v jeho zprávě), takže to ještě docela potrvá... :-(<br />
Jan Mareš: můžeš prosím popsat co přesně má být těch 1000Kč a jak se na to přijde? Já tomu pořád nějak nerozumím...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> <font color="gray">best case is I would start to test phones around the first of june. Then<br />
pack and ship.<br />
</font>1.6. začíná testovat telefony a potm je balit a odesílat.<br><br />
<font color=gray>The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically you<br />
build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy% pass the test, and the factory says.<br />
"good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on the<br />
test software, because that bad phone really was good." arrg.</font> Ale toto nějak moc nechápu.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vychází to takto: 250 Kč (vypracování JSD), 30 Kč (vypracování hodnoty), 250 Kč (jednani za deklaranta), 30 Kč (avízo) a pak asi ručení (350). Je to můj odhad a po konkrétním dotaze by měli sdělit částku. Asi tedy bude třeba připočítat poštovné (250 Kč). Zatím jsem jim napsal dotaz ohledně nepodnikající osoby s tímto množstvím, tak jsem zvědav kdy odpoví.<br />
Tu další část považuji za povzdychnutí, kdy jim vyrobili více telefonů z nichž jen část prošla a továrna chce tohle číslo minimalizovat a že dané chyby byly spíše SW povahy.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' Podle toho co píšeš bych řekl že by vyšlo levněj kdyby jsme brali všechny telefony dohromady.Jaké má výhody osamostatnění Prahy ?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' No nedokazeme pojistit 30telefonu na jejich cenu pri doprave, ale jinak pokud by to clo vyrizovala firma asi by to bylo vyhodnejsi.<br />
<br />
=== Doplňující informace ===<br />
* '''Moje komunikace s pobočkou FIC v ČR:'''<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
Taiwanský FIC v nejbližších dnech začne s prodejem mobilního telefonu<br />
Neo FreeRunner (www.openmoko.com). Chci se zeptat, jestli bude možné případné<br />
reklamace a opravy řešit u vás?<br />
<br />
Zatím není známý přesný způsob distribuce tohoto telefonu pro Evropu<br />
a Českou republiku. Nebude vaše pobočka zapojena do distribuční sítě?<br />
<br />
Děkuji za odpověď, Martin Šenkeřík<br />
Odpověď:<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
FIC CZ s.r.o. v těchto měsících přechází pod Foxconn CZ.<br />
V případě reklamace či informací se obracejte přímo na FIC TW.<br />
Kontaktní osobou na Zákaznickém oddělení je<br />
<br />
Mr. James Chang<br />
Customer Service Department<br />
Te.: +886 2 8751 8751 ext.6196<br />
James_chang@fic.com.tw<br />
<br />
S pozdravem<br />
<br />
Jarka Ripplova<br />
<br />
* '''Dotaz na celní úřad ohledně zpracování zásilky:'''<br />
Věc: Informace<br />
<br />
K Vaší žádosti o informaci týkající se hromadného dovozu zásilky pro osobní<br />
potřebu více příjemců Vám sdělujeme:<br />
<br />
Za zásilku zboží neobchodní povahy se ve smyslu celních předpisů považují<br />
zásilky, které jsou dováženy příležitostně a které obsahují výhradně zboží<br />
určené k osobnímu užití příjemců nebo jejich rodin, přičemž toto zboží nesmí<br />
povahou ani množstvím svědčit o obchodním úmyslu dovozce. Z uvedeného<br />
vyplývá, že tzv. sběrná zásilka nemůže být považována za zásilku zboží<br />
neobchodní povahy, i když obsah je určen pro osobní potřebu soukromých osob.<br />
Při dovozu zásilky obchodní povahy je zásilka zadržena při vstupu na celní<br />
území EU a příjemce vyzván k předložení celního prohlášení. Celní formality<br />
uskutečňuje příjemce, který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost.<br />
<br />
Pro zboží zařazené v některé z podpoložek čísla 8517 je celním sazebníkem EU<br />
stanovena sazba cla 0 %. Při dovozu zásilky zboží obchodního charakteru<br />
celní orgány posuzují, zda zboží nepodléhá zvláštnímu řízení podle zákona č.<br />
38/1994 Sb., o zahraničním obchodu s vojenským materiálem. Vedle cla se při<br />
propuštění dovezeného zboží do volného oběhu v tuzemsku vyměřuje DPH v<br />
základní sazbě 19 %. Základem pro vyměření DPH je cena, za kterou bylo zboží<br />
prodáno do EU, ke které se přičtou náklady na dopravu zásilky do EU, podle<br />
příslušných ustanovení zákona o DPH.<br />
<br />
Celní dluh, jehož součástí je i DPH, se vyměří v českých korunách z celní<br />
hodnoty převedené na české koruny v kurzu platném pro příslušné období.<br />
Aktuální kurzy měn jsou uveřejněny na stránkách Celní správy České republiky<br />
www.cs.mfcr.cz cestou Servis - Kurzovní lístky.</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Group_salesTalk:Group sales2008-05-22T20:52:08Z<p>Mivaho: /* The Netherlands */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
== England ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}<br />
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?<br />
<br />
:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.<br />
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
::Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====<br />
<br />
I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?<br />
<br />
I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?<br />
<br />
In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(<br />
<br />
:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] - [mailto:stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk let me know] if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
<br />
Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)<br />
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.<br />
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but<br />
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}<br />
<br />
<br />
Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php<br />
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen<br />
<br />
Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van <br />
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd <br />
zou willen zien worden.<br />
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie <br />
over het te leveren artikel.<br />
<br />
Uw naam J. de Haan<br />
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
Artikelinformatie<br />
Merk openmoko<br />
Naam freerunner<br />
Website openmoko.com<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen <br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor <br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail <br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
E-mailcontact - verzonden<br />
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.<br />
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)<br />
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not<br />
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out <br />
on Utrecht CS :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)<br />
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? <br /><br />
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1." <br />
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.<br />
<br />
{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will have 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Belgium Belgium]. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.<br />
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:<br />
<br />
Geachte heer,<br />
<br />
Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
<br />
Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx<br />
Product Management / Technical Support<br />
<br />
Salland Automatisering<br />
<br />
Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post. <br /><br />
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.<br />
from Jan de Haan <haan.j.de@gmail.com><br />
to inkoop@azerty.nl,<br />
date Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM<br />
subject Openmoko - Freerunner<br />
mailed-by gmail.com<br />
<br />
hide details 8:52 PM (0 minutes ago)<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen<br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor<br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
Een importeur schijnt trisoft.de te zijn. Let wel: dit product is<br />
nog niet op de markt,<br />
al zijn de laatste test productie runs klaar.<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail<br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken. <br /><br />
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):<br />
<br />
=== Votes for a reseller ===<br />
{|border=1<br />
!Name<br />
!Trisoft<br />
!Open Source Nieuws Nederland<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (Subject to a solution for warranty)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[Special:Emailuser/User:PWerken|Peter van de Werken]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (note: I'll buy 2 Freerunners)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]]<br />
|<br />
|1 (If warranty is OK)<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]]<br />
|<br />
|1<br />
|-<br />
|'''Total'''<br />
|<br />
|10<br />
|}<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:<br />
Beste Yorick,<br />
<br />
Bedankt voor je mail en informatie; ik kende de toestellen niet, maar zou ze<br />
best eens van dichtbij willen bekijken. Het 'developer' model lijkt me dan<br />
echter weer minder interessant voor ons; het 'consumer' model zou eind 2008<br />
op de markt moeten komen?<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
With kind regards,<br />
<br />
Michael Brus<br />
Manager PDAshop<br />
<br />
<br />
Coolblue<br />
Molenbaan 11 . 2908 LL Capelle a/d IJssel . www.coolblue.nl<br />
<br />
Coolblue is...<br />
MP3shop.nl . PDAshop.nl . Digicamshop.nl . GPSshop.nl .<br />
Smartphoneshop.nl . Consoleshop.nl . Telefoonshop.nl . meer...<br />
<br />
Should I forward this to Michael Shiloh?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 07/05} I'll vote to wait until there are actually phones shipping, until that time, the more people we gather here, and maybe other dealers, the better the deal we get(I hope).<br />
<br />
{[[User:T_M|Theo Martens]] 08/05} <br />
Well, I want to have the phone as soon as possible. The best deal ever isn't my main concern.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 13/05}<br />
I've been browsing the mailing list, and found [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/016971.html this post] from Openmoko's Steve. Group sales have 28 days of DOA (Dead On Arrival) coverage, and single sales have 14 days of DOA coverage. Which I think is reasonable. BTW, I don't think there will be a better deal than the $369 per phone for the 10-pack. <br /><br />
We currently have enough people to fill 2 10-packs, which is awesome! <br /><br />
What we do need to figure out are the import costs, and the shipping costs. (it's shipped via UPS, if I recall correctly from the mailing list.)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 22/05}<br />
<br />
I wouldn't be too sure that this is financially going to be the best deal. This message in the community mailing list (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017668.html) shows interesting info regarding Pulster.<br />
----<br />
''Christph Pulster wrote:<br />
''> about 10 pack orders - we try to be cheaper than the 10-order-<br />
''> pack-price ! so no need to collect ten local buyers.<br />
<br />
''This sounds so good...! I'm waiting for official news (and maybe infos <br />
about the gifts too)...''<br />
----<br />
'''I checked their webpage and they advertise with OpenMoko Freerunner 299 eur'''<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 22/05} I checked their website too and it says 'Sobald der Freerunner wirklich lieferbar ist, ist er an dieser Stelle mit konkretem Preis zu finden und real bestellbar.' Which could mean that the price will be something other than 299 euro.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 22/05} I like the pulster deal a lot, even if they are the same price as buying the 10 pack in the US the warranty part is a lot better seeing Germany is next door to us. Only thing is that you would mis out on the pouch and headset, dunno if that's such a great loss. And they say they will be going under the price of the US 10 pack order if you order the 10 from them. So maybe a vote on yes or no to the pouch/headset deal?<br />
<br />
== Belgium ==<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 20/04} I'm from Belgium, would shipping be possible to Belgium? I'm very interested. thanks.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 06/05} I contacted Michael Brus, the manager of PDAshop. This is what he said:<br />
Beste Yorick,<br />
<br />
Bedankt voor je mail en informatie; ik kende de toestellen niet, maar zou ze<br />
best eens van dichtbij willen bekijken. Het 'developer' model lijkt me dan<br />
echter weer minder interessant voor ons; het 'consumer' model zou eind 2008<br />
op de markt moeten komen?<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
With kind regards,<br />
<br />
Michael Brus<br />
Manager PDAshop<br />
<br />
<br />
Coolblue<br />
Molenbaan 11 . 2908 LL Capelle a/d IJssel . www.coolblue.nl<br />
<br />
Coolblue is...<br />
MP3shop.nl . PDAshop.nl . Digicamshop.nl . GPSshop.nl .<br />
Smartphoneshop.nl . Consoleshop.nl . Telefoonshop.nl . meer...<br />
<br />
Should I forward this to Michael Shiloh?<br />
<br />
== Canada ==<br />
==== GTA (Toronto) ====<br />
{ --[[User:Argo|Argo]] 03:51, 17 May 2008 (UTC) }<br />
For group 1 it looks like they have actually gotten the 10 orders in? or am I them adding up wrong?<br />
<br />
== Croatia ==<br />
{--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 14:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)} '''ja ne bih da već sada radimo pan-balkansku grupu, iskreno sam iznenađen odazivom do sada, pa jedino možda ako ne skupimo dovoljno ljudi do kraja ovog tjedna...'''<br />
<br />
moj post sa hr.comp.os.linux upućen mnalisu;<br />
<br />
> BTW, ti si zapravo kontaktirao HULK i rekli su ti da bi to oni isli raditi i<br />
<br />
> gnjaviti se sa svim tim, ili ih cisto spominjes onako u smislu "pa oni su<br />
<br />
> dragi ljudi, sigurno ce besplatno uloziti mjesece svog zivota u to u zamjenu<br />
<br />
> za pivu" ?<br />
<br />
Davio sam ih malo zadnja dva dana na IRCu, i prema logu načelno su za<br />
da se narudžbe hendlaju preko njih. A i mislim da se ipak ne radi o<br />
mjesecima života bačenih za pivu, more like možda 2-3 sata za gajbu<br />
ili dvije :), hell ako je toliko teško napravit ću ja sve, učlanit se<br />
u HULK ako treba<br />
<br />
ali do toga trenutka ovako ja razmišljam:<br />
<br />
1.) skupimo 10 zainteresiranih<br />
2.) ja nazovem carinu i agenciju za telekomunikacije<br />
3.) pitamo openmoko za shipping estimate<br />
4.) ako su svi i dalje za, skupljanje sredstava i na kraju narudžba<br />
<br />
dakle ništa nije obligatory, idemo step by step, onog trenutka kada se<br />
prijavi 10 ljudi na wikiju ja zovem nadležne službe, pa ćemo vidit di<br />
stojimo sa uvozom i tim''<br />
<br />
nemoj odmah "worst case scenario" :)<br />
<br />
>> mozda da se malo na elitesecurity.org pokrene rasprava?<br />
<br />
--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 10:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC) svakako, ja sam za<br />
<br />
== Czech Republic ==<br />
Distribuční seznam, základní informace naleznete v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Czech_Republic GroupSales]<br />
<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Diskuze Diskuze]<br />
*[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Dopl.C5.88uj.C3.ADc.C3.AD_informace Doplňující informace]<br />
<br />
=== Diskuze ===<br />
''Martin Holec''> Máme tu 4x ze Zlína, co kdyby někdo jel do Brna pro 4ks a ve Zlíně by se rozdělili?<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> jak jsem psal, já do Zlína jezdívám, a od května do září budu ve Zlíně velmi často, takže se Zlínem není vůbec problém.<br />
<br />
Jinak už se objevily nějaké termíny. Jestli jsem to dobře pochopil, tak 9.5. by už mohla začít masová výroba a brzy na to by měl začít prodej...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak by měl vlastně vypadat? Takový ten bíly se mně moc nelíbí. Radši bych měl [http://http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:FIC-neo1973_small.jpg černý].<br />
<br />
''Michal Pěnka''> Protože jsem jedenáctý a nevím, jestli bude možné objednat 11 kusů nebo jen po desítkách, domluvím se s Tomem Vargou později (jestli by byl ochotný pro převoz do Prahy), každopádně bych také raději ten černý.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> Jak to tak tady pročítám tak to půjde objednat za zvýhodněnou cenu (+pytlík? a headset) opravdu jenom po desítkách. Ale IMHO když této stránce zvedneme popularitu (případně přiberem Slováky) tak jich budem nakonec brát minimálně dvacet ;) Mně osobně připadá datum 9.5. hodně optimistické.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> FreeRunner bude pouze v jedné barevné variantě, a to černý. To datum 9.5. mám [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates odsud]<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>Nemáte někdo fotku freerunnera ? na wiki jsem zatím našel jenom fotky GTA1-čky<br />
<br />
''David Kozub''>> Jelikoz se vyskytuju ve Zline i v Praze, muzu zajistit prevoz do Prahy.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No tak například tady to máš dokonce na videu: http://youtube.com/watch?v=k9QLdK6pFCI ;-) Ale jinak i na wiki se povalují fotky FreeRunnera. Například hned ta první na hlavní stránce ;-)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> To video je parádní. Co se týče té fotky z úvodu wiki, myslel jsem, že je to jenom render. Jinak jak jsem tak bloudil po stránkách české pošty - nejlevněj to nejspíš vyjde poslat jako profibalík za myslím že 64korun. Za dobírku se něco ještě připlácí. Balík je pojištěný do 100 000. [http://www.cpost.cz:80/jetspeed/portal/media-type/html/user/anon/page/default.psml/js_pane/sluzbyonline%2Czasilky?docid=370&calc_lb0=10424&calc_cb0=1 více zde]<br />
<br />
ad. '''Praha (Čechy):'''<br />
<br />
''Tom Varga''>> Pokoušel jsem se vyčíst z mailing listu, jak je to s tou množstevní slevou - co jsem z toho pochopil, tak by neměl být problém objednat množství nedělitené desíti, ale ty kusy navíc jsou pak [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016432.html bez slevy] a [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016202.html bez bonusu]; pořád by se to ale vyplatilo skrze poštovné. Prozatím bych navrhl, aby se zájemci z Prahy (Čech) zapsali / potvrdili smazáním otazníku v [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu], možná něco podobného pro Slovensko - momentálně to vypadá, že bude snazší sehnat 20 zájemců celkem a taky by se tím mohla situace trochu vyjasnit. Osobně jsem schopen zajistit dovoz z Brna do Prahy, Liberce, Jablonce n.N. a přilehlých končin. Případné návrhy sem ;)<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>> Řekl bych že čím větší balík poletí za Ameriky sem tím levněj to vyjde. Pokud není poštovné na gramy. 20-ti zájemců se určitě dočkáme. Když počítám Františka Horínka z Bratislavy tak je nás 18. Co se týče bonusů na headsetu moc nelpím ale ten pytel by se mně vážně hodil. Často v kapse kombinuju mobil a klíče nebo šroubovák...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>> Poštovné samozřejmě není na gramy, ale na libry, neboli každých započatých 0.45 kg se platí, plus se poštovné započítává do cla, mimochodem taková zásilka asi jen tak přes celnici neprojde, takže je možné, že nikdo (příjemce) bude muset dodat na celnici případné dokumenty dokladující hodnotu zasílaného zboží.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>> Tak dle "platného" celního sazebníku by se clo nemělo platit. Viz [http://disk.jabbim.cz/ivir@jabbim.com/celni_sazebnik.pdf Sazebník] strana 568. Tedy by se hradilo pouze DPH. Aspoň si myslím, že 20 telefonů jako "dárek" asi neprojde.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>>> No tím lépe, ale tak já to beztak myslel jako celý celní dluh a to dph je právě i z poštovného.<br />
<br />
''Miloslav Machotka''> Koukám že jsem trochu zaspal dění. :) V [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distribu%C4%8Dn%C3%AD_sch%C3%A9ma distribučním schématu] jsem se připsal k Praze. Mám to nejblíž, jsem z Vlašimi, ale jinak jsem pro to schopen dojet i do Brna. Jsem pro to aby se to vyřešilo, pokud možno, po desítkách a pak to rozvést (rozeslat) po Čechách a Slovensku. Bonusy se asi většině lidí hodí.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>>>>> DPH musíme taky platit ?? To je mrzuté. Kolik mají DPH slováci ? nevyšlo by to levněj poslat do Bratislavy a stama ''"propašovat"'' k nám ? Když už máme ten šengen... Nevrátí nám třeba amíci DPH které za to zaplatili u nich ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>>>>>>> Co je mi známo, tak při obchodování mimo zemi se DPH neúčtuje a účtuje se až v cílové zemi. Dle rok starého článku na měšci je základní sazba stejná, tj. 19%. Od DPH by to šlo odprostit pouze pokud by na tom balíku bylo napsáno, že se jedná o dárek. Pak se na to daň neuplatní. Jakmile se mi povede najít ustanovení/článek, tak jsem dám odkaz.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No ono je stále ještě otázkou, odkud to vůbec budou posílat. Protože sem někde viděl informace, že se budou snažit zásobovat Evropu z nějakého centra v Evropě. O tom dárku jsem taky slyšel, ale prej to taky není zaručený způsob. Celníci se do toho můžou podívat, a uvalit na to daň podle vlastního rozhodnutí (prej). Jinak ale je tu ještě možnost, že by nám to někdo dovezl. Nevíte jak to funguje v tom případě?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>To centrum v Evropě bylo v plánu avšak levněji jim to vyjde posílání z Ameriky, takže bude k dispozici jen jedno centrum v USA. Ohledně toho dárku jsem doposud četl, že jeho částka nesmí přesáhnout 55€, jinak je normálně proclíván. Při osobním převozu jsou nastaveny limity výše viz [http://www.celnisprava.cz/CmsGrc/Cestovani-a-nakupy/Jak-se-chovat/mimo-eu.htm celní správa].<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' >>> Kdyby vezl dva tři tak by možná ukecal že je to dárek ale dvacet... clo vem čert to bude nanejvýš 3,5% což není taková pálka. Spíš kdy se to DPH z toho platí ? Hned na celnici nebo musím podat něco jako daňové přiznání ?<br />
* No tak zatím jsem zjistil že nejspíš jediná šance jak se osvobodit od cla a DPH je že všeci sedem do letadla a zajedem si pro to. Limit je 6000kč na jednu osobu starší 15-ti let.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mares''>>>> Clo se na tento druh zboží nevztahuje. Platí se pouze české DPH, který ti celníci vyměří z ''ceny zboží + doprava + clo'', pak ti v případě fyzické osoby zašlou na tvou poštu, kde uhradíš DPH jako dobírku. U podnikatele je to trošku jiné. VAT (čili americké DPH) na zboží nebude uvaleno, jelikož zboží je vyváženo z USA.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No a dá se tohle spočítat předem? Abysme mohli stanovit cenu?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> No dokud nebude jasne kolik bude stat postovne (typ + vaha) a jaky bude kurs dolaru, tak presna cena asi tezko.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>No co. Tak ti každý pošlem sedm tisíc s tím, že potom přebytky rozdělíš do obálek a budeš předávat s každým telefonem obálku. Jinak to asi dost dobře nepůjde. Jedině že by nám to sem dopravila česká pobočka FIC-u/foxconn. Ale to je podle mně nepravděpodobné.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>JJ take myslim, ze bych dal predbeznou cenu 7K s tim, ze uz je poslem, at muzes pruzne zareagovat a ne pak cekat az vsichni poslou.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>>>> Kdyby se zase Steve nebo někdo vyjádřil v jakém je to stavu a přidal předběžný odhad kdy se začne prodávat. Teďka je to těžko. Můžou ho vydat zítra ale taky třeba i za půl roku pokud se objeví nějaký složitý problém.<br />
Ještě k té předběžné ceně - dolar není za 15 korun ale za 16,1-16,2 korun I s DPH se do těch 7000 nespíš nevejdem. Jestli že se domluvíme žo začnem posílat peníze tak navrhuju posílat 7500. IMHO dolar už níž nepůjde.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Co jsem se zatím díval na možnosti přepravy (DHL,Fedex,UPS,USPS), tak nejvýhodněji vychází USPS ([http://www.usps.com/ usps.com]), kdy se pohybujeme kolem částky 120$ i s pojištěním (kdyby to bylo cca 10kg což pochybuji). Bohužel maximální pojištění činí 5 000$, přičemž celková částka balíku vychází na cca 7 580$ . U ostatních jsem ohledně pojištění nenašel zmínku, přičemž poštovné vycházelo většinou přes 500$. Z pohledu pojištění by bylo vhodné objednávky rozdělit. Ještě bude záležet jaké poštovní služby nabídnou v e-shopu. Včera u ČSOB byla prodejní cena dolaru na 16,44Kč/$ a musím bohužel souhlasit, že lepší to už nebude. Jinak ceník je k dispozici na této adrese [http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781 http://pe.usps.com/text/Imm/ce_019.htm#ep1419781] .<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Teď mně napadlo - co kdyby jsem někde založili učet (nejlépe spořící) v dolarech a poslali to tam teď ? [http://www.mesec.cz/clanky/ucet-v-cizi-mene-ano-ale-kde/] Kdyby tak člověk věděl že pozítru neoznámí prodej...<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>>>>> Tak urcite bych pockal s placenim na nejake jistejsi vyjadreni, ale necekal bych na otevreni kramu, tehdy uz by chtelo, aby se to dalo hned objednat, co se tyka uctu neverim, ze dolar spadne, ale ani ze poroste a tak bych to neresil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vzhledem k množství objednávaného zboží bych možná už využil dopravních společností, které za nás provedou celní odbavení. Aspoň metodický pokyny k vyplnění JSD (jednotný správní doklad) nejsou triviální a zabere to minimálně půlden. Ukázku dokumentu jsme nalezl zde: [http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/ http://www.sevt.cz/produkt/jsd-18430-tranzit-60842500/].<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>> Dole v tom dopisu z celního úřadu se píše: "který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost" to nikdo z nás má?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >> '''[http://www.trisoft.de/en_freerunner.htm Evropský Distributor]''', ale je celkem dražší.<br />
<br />
''Radek Machulka'' > Což o to, [http://www.pulster.de/ tady] je o 50 euro levnější, ale nemyslím si, že to bude ve výsledku výhodnější.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''>>> Co jsem se díval do pokynů, tak to může vyplnit i fyzická osoba, jelikož každý způsobilý občan může provést obchodní činnost. Pouze nesmí být opakovaného rázu, tj. jednorázové obchody. Zkusím se tedy dotázat konkrétněji na tuto část. Ohledně toho evropského distributora nevím. Odhadem to vychází přes 1000 Kč dráž bez poštovného a bez bonusů. Jestliže se nám poradí vyřešit problém s celním úřadem, tak bych spíše volil objednávku z USA. Připadá mi, že tyhle obchody to jen objednají v USA, přijmou a přepošlou s přirážkou.<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' >>>> Take jsem pro USA, jen sem to nasel a ac ten od Radka Machulky je uz zajimavejsi tak verim, ze se dostanem i pod nej a jeste je tam ten obal a sluchatka.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''> Já jsem též pro USA. Ještě by bylo možné (teoreticky) zkusit si to objednat přes nějakého (mešího) obchodníka co bere věci od FIC-u<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''> Tož sem [[GroupSales#Aktu.C3.A1ln.C4.9B|vyhlásil konkurz]] na koordinátora pražské větve a snad se najde někdo kdo je schopen se vejít do těch zásadních bodů co jsem tam nastínil.<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Relativně požadavky splňuji. Mám studentský ČSOB účet mající limit na 1,5M, kartu Visa Classic, angličtinu zvládám na úrovni čtení technické dokumentace, bydlím na Barrandově a jabber též mám (ivir@jabbim.com). Jen tu důvěryhodnost nemám. :) S tím clem to bude ještě zajímavé, ale snad mi ohledně toho ještě poradí z celního úřadu. V nouzi mám k dispozici i OSVČ. :)<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Dle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017531.html příspěvku] bude dovoz zboží do USA zahájen někdy 1.června. K tomu je nutné připočítat min. týden až 3 než zboží dorazí do skladů. Z příspěvku teoreticky vyplývá, že bude i evropský HUB. Snad to bude za stejnou částku a s bonusy. :)<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek''>Podle [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017607.html příspěvku] by měl webový shop odkazovat na us i eu a to vypadá čím dál nadějnějš co se týká poštovného aj cla.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' jestli to dobře překládám tak není jasné jakým způsobem to půjde z činy - jestli lodí nebo letadlem ?<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Ano, aspoň takto jsem to pochopil i já. Problémem je ta doba dodání. Jinak co se týká vyřízení JSD (cla), tak u zprostředkovatele [http://www.kama-eu.cz/ KAMA s.r.o.>, jež mi doporučil celní úřad, vychází na cca 1000 Kč viz ceník, což mi připadá přijatelné.<br />
<br />
''Martin Šenkeřík''> No mně ty informace od Steva přijdou vždycky nějaké zmatené. Nevědí jestli lodí nebo letadlem, ale odejít by to snad mělo až 1.6. (nebo co má znamenat to datum, v jeho zprávě), takže to ještě docela potrvá... :-(<br />
Jan Mareš: můžeš prosím popsat co přesně má být těch 1000Kč a jak se na to přijde? Já tomu pořád nějak nerozumím...<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář''>> <font color="gray">best case is I would start to test phones around the first of june. Then<br />
pack and ship.<br />
</font>1.6. začíná testovat telefony a potm je balit a odesílat.<br><br />
<font color=gray>The factory made us do one more Pre MP run to maximize yield. basically you<br />
build a XyZ phones. you test them, Xy% pass the test, and the factory says.<br />
"good. can you reduce the test time and decrease the false negatives on the<br />
test software, because that bad phone really was good." arrg.</font> Ale toto nějak moc nechápu.<br />
<br />
<br />
''Jan Mareš''> Vychází to takto: 250 Kč (vypracování JSD), 30 Kč (vypracování hodnoty), 250 Kč (jednani za deklaranta), 30 Kč (avízo) a pak asi ručení (350). Je to můj odhad a po konkrétním dotaze by měli sdělit částku. Asi tedy bude třeba připočítat poštovné (250 Kč). Zatím jsem jim napsal dotaz ohledně nepodnikající osoby s tímto množstvím, tak jsem zvědav kdy odpoví.<br />
Tu další část považuji za povzdychnutí, kdy jim vyrobili více telefonů z nichž jen část prošla a továrna chce tohle číslo minimalizovat a že dané chyby byly spíše SW povahy.<br />
<br />
''Pavel Kovář'' Podle toho co píšeš bych řekl že by vyšlo levněj kdyby jsme brali všechny telefony dohromady.Jaké má výhody osamostatnění Prahy ?<br />
<br />
''Michal Bořek'' No nedokazeme pojistit 30telefonu na jejich cenu pri doprave, ale jinak pokud by to clo vyrizovala firma asi by to bylo vyhodnejsi.<br />
<br />
=== Doplňující informace ===<br />
* '''Moje komunikace s pobočkou FIC v ČR:'''<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
Taiwanský FIC v nejbližších dnech začne s prodejem mobilního telefonu<br />
Neo FreeRunner (www.openmoko.com). Chci se zeptat, jestli bude možné případné<br />
reklamace a opravy řešit u vás?<br />
<br />
Zatím není známý přesný způsob distribuce tohoto telefonu pro Evropu<br />
a Českou republiku. Nebude vaše pobočka zapojena do distribuční sítě?<br />
<br />
Děkuji za odpověď, Martin Šenkeřík<br />
Odpověď:<br />
Dobrý den,<br />
<br />
FIC CZ s.r.o. v těchto měsících přechází pod Foxconn CZ.<br />
V případě reklamace či informací se obracejte přímo na FIC TW.<br />
Kontaktní osobou na Zákaznickém oddělení je<br />
<br />
Mr. James Chang<br />
Customer Service Department<br />
Te.: +886 2 8751 8751 ext.6196<br />
James_chang@fic.com.tw<br />
<br />
S pozdravem<br />
<br />
Jarka Ripplova<br />
<br />
* '''Dotaz na celní úřad ohledně zpracování zásilky:'''<br />
Věc: Informace<br />
<br />
K Vaší žádosti o informaci týkající se hromadného dovozu zásilky pro osobní<br />
potřebu více příjemců Vám sdělujeme:<br />
<br />
Za zásilku zboží neobchodní povahy se ve smyslu celních předpisů považují<br />
zásilky, které jsou dováženy příležitostně a které obsahují výhradně zboží<br />
určené k osobnímu užití příjemců nebo jejich rodin, přičemž toto zboží nesmí<br />
povahou ani množstvím svědčit o obchodním úmyslu dovozce. Z uvedeného<br />
vyplývá, že tzv. sběrná zásilka nemůže být považována za zásilku zboží<br />
neobchodní povahy, i když obsah je určen pro osobní potřebu soukromých osob.<br />
Při dovozu zásilky obchodní povahy je zásilka zadržena při vstupu na celní<br />
území EU a příjemce vyzván k předložení celního prohlášení. Celní formality<br />
uskutečňuje příjemce, který má příslušné oprávnění pro hospodářskou nebo<br />
obchodní činnost.<br />
<br />
Pro zboží zařazené v některé z podpoložek čísla 8517 je celním sazebníkem EU<br />
stanovena sazba cla 0 %. Při dovozu zásilky zboží obchodního charakteru<br />
celní orgány posuzují, zda zboží nepodléhá zvláštnímu řízení podle zákona č.<br />
38/1994 Sb., o zahraničním obchodu s vojenským materiálem. Vedle cla se při<br />
propuštění dovezeného zboží do volného oběhu v tuzemsku vyměřuje DPH v<br />
základní sazbě 19 %. Základem pro vyměření DPH je cena, za kterou bylo zboží<br />
prodáno do EU, ke které se přičtou náklady na dopravu zásilky do EU, podle<br />
příslušných ustanovení zákona o DPH.<br />
<br />
Celní dluh, jehož součástí je i DPH, se vyměří v českých korunách z celní<br />
hodnoty převedené na české koruny v kurzu platném pro příslušné období.<br />
Aktuální kurzy měn jsou uveřejněny na stránkách Celní správy České republiky<br />
www.cs.mfcr.cz cestou Servis - Kurzovní lístky.</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Group_salesTalk:Group sales2008-04-29T19:29:22Z<p>Mivaho: /* [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
== England ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}<br />
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?<br />
<br />
:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.<br />
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====<br />
<br />
I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?<br />
<br />
I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?<br />
<br />
In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(<br />
<br />
:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
<br />
Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)<br />
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.<br />
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but<br />
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}<br />
<br />
<br />
Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php<br />
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen<br />
<br />
Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van <br />
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd <br />
zou willen zien worden.<br />
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie <br />
over het te leveren artikel.<br />
<br />
Uw naam J. de Haan<br />
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
Artikelinformatie<br />
Merk openmoko<br />
Naam freerunner<br />
Website openmoko.com<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen <br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor <br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail <br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
E-mailcontact - verzonden<br />
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.<br />
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)<br />
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not<br />
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out <br />
on Utrecht CS :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)<br />
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? <br /><br />
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1." <br />
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.<br />
<br />
{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will heave 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Belgium Belgium]. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.<br />
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:<br />
<br />
Geachte heer,<br />
<br />
Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
<br />
Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx<br />
Product Management / Technical Support<br />
<br />
Salland Automatisering<br />
<br />
Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post. <br /><br />
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.<br />
from Jan de Haan <haan.j.de@gmail.com><br />
to inkoop@azerty.nl,<br />
date Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM<br />
subject Openmoko - Freerunner<br />
mailed-by gmail.com<br />
<br />
hide details 8:52 PM (0 minutes ago)<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen<br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor<br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
Een importeur schijnt trisoft.de te zijn. Let wel: dit product is<br />
nog niet op de markt,<br />
al zijn de laatste test productie runs klaar.<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail<br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.<br />
<br />
== Belgium ==<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 20/04} I'm from Belgium, would shipping be possible to Belgium? I'm very interested. thanks.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Your country ==<br />
{Add your text here}</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Group_salesTalk:Group sales2008-04-29T19:25:09Z<p>Mivaho: /* [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
== England ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}<br />
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?<br />
<br />
:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.<br />
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====<br />
<br />
I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?<br />
<br />
I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?<br />
<br />
In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(<br />
<br />
:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
<br />
Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)<br />
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.<br />
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but<br />
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}<br />
<br />
<br />
Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php<br />
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen<br />
<br />
Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van <br />
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd <br />
zou willen zien worden.<br />
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie <br />
over het te leveren artikel.<br />
<br />
Uw naam J. de Haan<br />
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
Artikelinformatie<br />
Merk openmoko<br />
Naam freerunner<br />
Website openmoko.com<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen <br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor <br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail <br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
E-mailcontact - verzonden<br />
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.<br />
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)<br />
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not<br />
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out <br />
on Utrecht CS :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)<br />
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? <br /><br />
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1." <br />
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.<br />
<br />
{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will heave 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Belgium Belgium]. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.<br />
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:<br />
<br />
Geachte heer,<br />
<br />
Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
<br />
Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx<br />
Product Management / Technical Support<br />
<br />
Salland Automatisering<br />
<br />
Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.<br />
<br />
{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post. <br /><br />
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.<br />
from Jan de Haan <haan.j.de@gmail.com><br />
to inkoop@azerty.nl,<br />
date Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM<br />
subject Openmoko - Freerunner<br />
mailed-by gmail.com<br />
<br />
hide details 8:52 PM (0 minutes ago)<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen<br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor<br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
Een importeur schijnt trisoft.de te zijn. Let wel: dit product is<br />
nog niet op de markt,<br />
al zijn de laatste test productie runs klaar.<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail<br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people couls signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know.<br />
<br />
== Belgium ==<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 20/04} I'm from Belgium, would shipping be possible to Belgium? I'm very interested. thanks.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Your country ==<br />
{Add your text here}</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Group_salesTalk:Group sales2008-04-29T18:26:07Z<p>Mivaho: /* [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
== England ==<br />
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}<br />
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?<br />
<br />
:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.<br />
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====<br />
<br />
I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?<br />
<br />
I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?<br />
<br />
In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(<br />
<br />
:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)<br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
<br />
Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)<br />
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 20/04} I'm from Belgium, would shipping be possible to Belgium? I'm very interested. thanks.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.<br />
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but<br />
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 20/04} Would you also be willing to ship to Belgium?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}<br />
<br />
<br />
Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php<br />
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen<br />
<br />
Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van <br />
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd <br />
zou willen zien worden.<br />
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie <br />
over het te leveren artikel.<br />
<br />
Uw naam J. de Haan<br />
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
Artikelinformatie<br />
Merk openmoko<br />
Naam freerunner<br />
Website openmoko.com<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen <br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor <br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail <br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
E-mailcontact - verzonden<br />
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.<br />
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)<br />
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not<br />
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out <br />
on Utrecht CS :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)<br />
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? <br /><br />
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1." <br />
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.<br />
<br />
{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will heave 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!<br />
<br />
{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in Belgium. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.<br />
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:<br />
<br />
Geachte heer,<br />
<br />
Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de<br />
<br />
Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.<br />
<br />
Met vriendelijke groet,<br />
<br />
Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx<br />
Product Management / Technical Support<br />
<br />
Salland Automatisering<br />
<br />
Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.<br />
<br />
== Your country ==<br />
{Add your text here}</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:Group_salesTalk:Group sales2008-04-25T12:30:33Z<p>Mivaho: /* [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] */</p>
<hr />
<div><div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
<br />
Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)<br />
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 20/04} I'm from Belgium, would shipping be possible to Belgium? I'm very interested. thanks.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.<br />
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but<br />
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 20/04} Would you also be willing to ship to Belgium?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}<br />
<br />
<br />
Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php<br />
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen<br />
<br />
Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van <br />
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd <br />
zou willen zien worden.<br />
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie <br />
over het te leveren artikel.<br />
<br />
Uw naam J. de Haan<br />
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
Artikelinformatie<br />
Merk openmoko<br />
Naam freerunner<br />
Website openmoko.com<br />
<br />
L.S.,<br />
<br />
wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen <br />
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor <br />
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?<br />
<br />
Hoogachtend,<br />
<br />
J. de Haan.<br />
<br />
PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail <br />
wordt daar ook gepost.<br />
<br />
E-mailcontact - verzonden<br />
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.<br />
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)<br />
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.<br />
<br />
{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.<br />
<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not<br />
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.<br />
<br />
{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out <br />
on Utrecht CS :-)<br />
<br />
{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.<br />
<br />
{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.<br />
<br />
{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.<br />
<br />
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?<br />
<br />
{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)<br />
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? <br /><br />
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).<br />
<br />
{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...<br />
<br />
== Your country ==<br />
{Add your text here}</div>Mivahohttp://openmoko.org/wiki/Group_salesGroup sales2008-04-24T20:29:31Z<p>Mivaho: /* [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] */</p>
<hr />
<div>Openmoko have announced a scheme to sell the forthcoming Neo Freerunner at a discount if bought in multiples of 10, to be shipped in one package. Group buying will thus save money on the purchase, and on the shipping. This page is to to organise group purchases by region.<br />
<div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div><br />
<br />
== Australia ==<br />
=== Western Australia ===<br />
==== Perth ====<br />
<br />
* Fred Janon mailto:fjanon@yahoo.com<br />
<br />
=== Victoria ===<br />
==== Melbourne ====<br />
Status: 4/10<br />
<br />
* 4x Dennis Wollersheim, mailto: dewoller (at) gmail (dot) com<br />
<br />
=== ACT ===<br />
==== Canberra ====<br />
Status: 1/10<br />
<br />
* J Dinale [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Noledil Contact me here]<br />
<br />
=== Queensland ===<br />
==== Brisbane ====<br />
Status: 3/10 (possibly 20)<br />
<br />
* Nick Devereaux x 2 [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Monkeypanic Contact me here]<br />
* Matt Gallagher [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/mattg Contact me here]<br />
<br />
== Austria ==<br />
I don't think that we reach the 10 phones in a city, so maybe we can handle it like the Italians. Order the phones in the most requested city and ship it to the other ones from there.<br />
<br />
=== Salzburg ===<br />
Status: 1/10<br />
<br />
* D. Kepplinger [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Wedge Contact me here]<br />
=== Wien ===<br />
Status: 1/10<br />
* M. Greifeneder [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/mikegr Contact me here]<br />
=== Styria ===<br />
==== Graz ====<br />
Status: 1/10<br />
<br />
* F Hackenberger [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Deadman66 Contact me here]<br />
<br />
== Belgium ==<br />
=== Flanders ===<br />
==== Brussel/Aalst/Gent/Brugge ====<br />
Status 4/10<br />
* Yorick, mailto: yorick DOT matthys AT gmail DOT com<br />
* 2x Dolfje [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Dolfje Contact me here]<br />
* XVens, mailto: xavier DOT vens AT gmail DOT com<br />
ps: Dolfje can bring freerunners to Brugge if needed<br />
<br />
==== Antwerp ====<br />
Status 5/10<br />
<br />
* michielv [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Michielv Contact me here]<br />
* Peter N [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Bubsy Contact me here]<br />
* Ivo [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Ivo Contact me here]<br />
* Peter Leemans, mailto: peter AT x-tend DOT be<br />
* Richard B [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/richardb Contact me here]<br />
<br />
== Bulgaria ==<br />
=== Sofia ===<br />
==== Sofia ====<br />
Status : 2/10<br />
<br />
* Dimitar Staykov, mailto:meditache@gmail.com<br />
* Vernim, [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Vernim Contact]<br />
<br />
== Canada ==<br />
<br />
=== British Columbia ===<br />
Status : 1/10<br />
<br />
* [[User:stryderjzw|stryderjzw]] (Vancouver): mailto: stryderjzw AT gmail<br />
<br />
=== Alberta ===<br />
Status : 1/10<br />
<br />
* [[User:Wuth|Wuth]] : [mailto:wuth@acm.org]<br />
<br />
=== Ontario/Quebec ===<br />
==== GTA (Toronto) ====<br />
Status : 6/10<br />
<br />
* Gerald A [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Historybuff Contact me here]<br />
* MattC, mailto: quirkz AT gmail<br />
* Sergey K, openmoko AT deeptown dOt org<br />
* Peter Baldwin, vendor.openmoko AT pointclark DOT net (3 units)<br />
<br />
== Chile ==<br />
=== Santiago ===<br />
Status : 2/10<br />
<br />
* [[User:Mankeke]] Ricardo Manríquez C., mailto: ricardo.manriquez "remove this and add AT" gmail "dot" com<br />
* [[User:XKnightmareX]] Gonzalo Pesenti., mailto: mare.knight1 "remove this and add AT" gmail "dot" com<br />
<br />
== Denmark ==<br />
If we do not reach a total large enough, Denmark **is** a very small place - surely we could figure out a way of getting them to find their way 'round the country :)<br />
<br />
=== Jutland ===<br />
==== Aalborg ====<br />
Status: 3/10<br />
<br />
* Dan Leinir Turthra Jensen <br /> mailto:admin@leinir.dk <br /> [[User:Leinir]]<br />
* Fabian Olesen <br /> mailto:firewalkerx@gmail.com<br />
* Helge Willum Larsen <br /> mailto:helge.at.helges.dk<br />
<br />
==== Skjern ====<br />
Status: 1/10<br />
<br />
* [[User:Carlo]]<br />
<br />
=== Fyn ===<br />
Status: 1/10<br />
<br />
* [[User:EsbenDamgaard]]<br />
<br />
=== Sjælland ===<br />
==== Copenhagen ====<br />
Status: 20/10<br />
<br />
* [[User:Fursund]]<br />
* [[User:Rasmusjensen]]<br />
* [[User:tabac]] Thomas Ammitzbøll-Bach<br />
* [[User:UlrikRasmussen]] Ulrik Rasmussen<br />
* [[User:KlaymenDK | Jan Gundtofte-Bruun]] (Pending final hw, eg. low-power LEDs)<br />
* [[User:OleTange | Ole Tange]] (I need 14 with invoice)<br />
* [[User:Pascal | Pascal d'Hermilly]] (I need 1 with invoice)<br />
<br />
== Finland ==<br />
=== Uusimaa ===<br />
==== Helsinki (Full)====<br />
Status : 10/10<br />
<br />
* Mikko Rauhala x2 [mailto:mjr@iki.fi mjr@iki.fi]<br />
* Aleksi Hankalahti <br /> [mailto:aleksi.hankalahti@iki.fi aleksi.hankalahti@iki.fi]<br />
* Seppo Hätönen <br /> [mailto:karrde@iki.fi karrde@iki.fi]<br />
* Arttu Sund <br /> [mailto:thearttu@gmail.com thearttu@gmail.com]<br />
* Ville-Pekka Vainio <br /> vpivaini AT cs.helsinki.fi<br />
* Heikki Hallamaa <br /> [mailto:heikki.hallamaa@iki.fi heikki.hallamaa@iki.fi]<br />
* Tomi Jylhä-Ollila <br /> tomi.jylha-ollila@helsinki.fi<br />
* Richard Braakman<br />
* Timo Jyrinki <br /> [mailto:timo.jyrinki@iki.fi timo.jyrinki@iki.fi]<br />
<br />
==== Helsinki ====<br />
Status : 4/10<br />
<br />
* [[User:Piksi]] <br />(i'll post more info when the group is full)<br />
* Risto H. Kurppa <br /> risto AT kurppa DOT fi<br />
* Aapo Rantalainen <br /> aapo DOT rantalainen AT gmail DOT com<br />
* Matti Laakso <br /> matti DOT laakso AT kotiposti DOT net<br />
<br />
=== Varsinais-Suomi ===<br />
==== Turku ====<br />
Status : 3/10<br />
<br />
* 2x Teemu Välimäki, [mailto:teemu.valimaki@iki.fi teemu.valimaki@iki.fi]<br />
<br />
* Jaakko Lehtinen, jaakko dot lehtinen at gmail dot com<br />
<br />
== France ==<br />
=== Bretagne ===<br />
==== Brest ====<br />
Status : 1/10<br />
<br />
* StevenLeRoux [mailto:steven@pourri.fr steven@pourri.fr] Jabber_Id:Steven@jabber.fr<br />
* Acheteur potentiel #2<br />
<br />
==== Rennes ====<br />
Status : 2/10<br />
<br />
* Cédric DUFOUIL (openmoko at tsleg point com)<br />
* Yves MAHE (ymahe at zindep dot com)<br />
<br />
=== Ile de france ===<br />
==== Paris ====<br />
Status : 8/10<br />
<br />
* StevenLeRoux<br />
* [[User:Phyce|Phyce]]<br />
* Yann SLADEK<br />
* [[User:Wilk|Wilk]] [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Wilk Contact me here]<br />
* Jonathan Magano ([http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/JonathanMM Contact me here])<br />
* Benjamin Renard (bn8[AT]zionetrix.net)<br />
* [[User:OlivierBerger|OlivierBerger]]<br />
* [[User:BartGS|BartGS]] [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/BartGS Contact me here]<br />
<br />
You may also see :<br />
http://bearstech.com/openmoko/register<br />
<br />
=== Pays de la Loire ===<br />
==== La Roche sur Yon ====<br />
Status : 1/10<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Vtouchar Vincent Touchard] (I may soon move to Bretagne/Brest)<br />
<br />
=== Rhône-Alpes ===<br />
==== Lyon ====<br />
Status : 1/10<br />
<br />
* [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/patou Vincent MEURISSE]<br />
<br />
== Germany ==<br />
=== Sachsen-Anhalt ===<br />
==== Stendal (evtl. Magdeburg) ====<br />
Status 1/10<br />
<br />
* Fabian Off [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Fabian2de Contact me here]<br />
<br />
=== Hamburg ===<br />
==== Hamburg ====<br />
Status 2/10<br />
<br />
* Jan [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Jan07 Contact me here]<br />
* Varacanero [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/varacanero Contact me here]<br />
<br />
=== Thueringen ===<br />
==== Weimar ====<br />
Status 1/10<br />
<br />
* [[User:Fries43]]<br />
<br />
=== NRW ===<br />
==== Bielefeld ====<br />
Status 3/10<br />
<br />
* David, infos on my [[User:Raven|user page]], or you can [[Special:Emailuser/Raven|contact me here]]<br />
* Sebastian, infos on my [[User:Seppi|user page]], or you can [[Special:Emailuser/Seppi|contact me here]]<br />
* Dackel, infos on my [[User:Killerdackel|user page]], or you can [[Special:Emailuser/Killerdackel|contact me here]]<br />
<br />
==== Aachen ====<br />
Status 1/10<br />
* Henrik, infos on my [[User:Henrikz|user page]], or you can [[Special:Emailuser/Henrikz|contact me here]]<br />
<br />
=== Baden-Württemberg ===<br />
==== Karlsruhe ====<br />
<br />
Status 5/10<br />
<br />
* 2 for André (one for me and one for a friend), you can [[Special:Emailuser/Spacemarine|contact me here]]<br />
* [[Special:Emailuser/Dr.Nop|Dr.Nop]]<br />
* [[Special:Emailuser/JensB|JensB]]<br />
* [[Special:Emailuser/Tedo|Tedo]]<br />
<br />
=== Berlin===<br />
==== Berlin ====<br />
Status 2/10<br />
<br />
for berlin-talk: http://de.groups.yahoo.com/group/openmoko-berlin/<br />
<br />
* Stephan [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Fischel Contact me here]<br />
* Robert [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Thebohemian Contact me here]<br />
<br />
== Italy == <br />
If we don't reach the 10 phones limit in each city, maybe we could place an order in the "most requested city", and from shipping to other buyers. We'll have anyway a good discount although the "double-shipping". ([http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.openmoko.community/10937/focus=10981 Read here for reference]).<br />
<br />
=== Toscana ===<br />
==== Firenze ====<br />
Status 2/10<br />
<br />
* [[User:Treviño|Marco Trevisan (Treviño)]] - [http://blog.3v1n0.net/contatti-trevino/ Contacts here]<br />
* [[User:Niccolo|Niccolo Rigacci]] - ''niccolo [AT] rigacci.org''<br />
<br />
=== Lombardia ===<br />
<br />
==== Milano e dintorni ====<br />
Status 7/10<br />
<br />
* Marco Crociani - [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Tyrael Contacts here]<br />
* Marcello Gorla<br />
* Maxxer [mailto:maxxer@yetopen.it maxxer@yetopen.it] (Lecco)<br />
* Pietro Montorfano [mailto:monto84@gmail.com monto84@gmail.com] (from como)<br />
* Gianluigi Belli - [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Pulciux Contacts here]<br />
* Michele Castellano - [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/mubumba Contacts here] (Milano)<br />
* Maurizio Lipreri - [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Maldido Contacts here]( Como )<br />
<br />
=== Trentino-Alto Adige ===<br />
==== Trento (Padova too :)) ====<br />
Status 1/10<br />
<br />
* Andrea Debortoli <br/> (debortoland AT gmail DOT com)<br />
<br />
=== Veneto ===<br />
==== Verona ====<br />
<br />
* Persegat [mailto:persegat@alice.it persegat@alice.it]<br/>[[User:Pecce|Pecce]]<br />
<br />
=== Puglia ===<br />
==== Lecce ====<br />
Status : 1/10<br />
<br />
* [[User:Morpheus90|Morpheus90]] [mailto:ugopiemontese@rudiaelinux.com ugopiemontese@rudiaelinux.com]<br />
==== Bari ====<br />
Status : 2/10<br />
<br />
* [[User:Fradeve11|Fradeve11]] [mailto:fradeve@ubuntu-it.org fradeve@ubuntu-it.org]<br />
<br />
=== Lazio ===<br />
==== Roma ====<br />
Status 3/10<br />
<br />
* Hire X 2 [mailto:hiretto@gmail.com hiretto@gmail.com] (Roma)<br />
* Darkbasic X 1 (Ancona)<br />
* zione X 1 (Roma)<br />
<br />
== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==<br />
(Discuss this group sale on the [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands talk page])<br />
<br />
* Marijn Kruisselbrink 1 [[Special:Emailuser/User:mkruisselbrink|Contact]]<br />
* Andy Powell 1/10 [[Special:Emailuser/User:ScaredyCat|Contact]]<br />
* Arjan Veenstra 1/10 [[User:AVee]] [[Special:Emailuser/User:AVee|Contact]]<br />
* Eric Smith 1/10 [[User:Eric Smith]]<br />
* [[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] (Nijmegen 1x) [[Special:Emailuser/User:A.dre|Contact]]<br />
* [[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] (Griendtsveen 1x)<br />
=== Noord-Brabant ===<br />
<br />
==== Bergen op Zoom ====<br />
* [[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 1/10 [[Special:Emailuser/User:Madjo|Contact]]<br />
<br />
==== Eindhoven ====<br />
* Christ van Willegen 1 [[User:ChristW]]<br />
<br />
=== Overijssel ===<br />
<br />
==== Deventer ====<br />
* Jan de Haan 1/10 [[User:Jan de Haan]] [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]<br />
<br />
==== Hengelo ====<br />
* Sander Hoentjen 1/10 [[Special:Emailuser/User:Tjikkun|Contact]]<br />
* Peter Hageman 1 [[Special:Emailuser/User:PingPong|Contact]]<br />
<br />
==== Zwolle ====<br />
* Boudewijn 1/10 [[User:Boudewijn|empty user page]] [[Special:Emailuser/User:Boudewijn|Contact]]; possibly got a second person interested<br />
<br />
=== Utrecht ===<br />
<br />
==== Utrecht ====<br />
* Eric Spierings 1/10 [[Special:Emailuser/User:ericsp|Contact]]<br />
* Peter van de Werken 1/10 [[Special:Emailuser/User:PWerken|Contact]]<br />
<br />
=== Noord Holland ===<br />
<br />
==== Amsterdam ====<br />
* Michel van Horssen 1/10 [[Special:Emailuser/User:mivaho|Contact]]<br />
<br />
=== Status ===<br />
15/20<br />
<br />
== Macedonia ==<br />
=== Skopje ===<br />
* Kristijan Krsteski 1/10 <br /> [[User:neutrino]] <br /> [mailto:kristijan.krsteski@gmail.com]<br />
===Status ===<br />
1/10<br />
<br />
== New Zealand ==<br />
As Telecom are using the 850MHz network for their GSM network, and Vodafone are using 900MHz, please state which version you want. This may need more research, I'm not 100%<br><br />
see [http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/cou_nz.shtml] for more info<br />
=== Auckland ===<br />
==== Auckland ====<br />
Status:3/10<br />
*Rob Paulson [[User:Myfanwy]] 900MHz<br />
*Simon Wells [[User:Swel024]]<br />
*Jeremy List [[User:Jeremy-list]] mailto:quick.dudley@gmail.com (Wellington, not Auckland, will pay for courier)<br />
<br />
== Norway ==<br />
=== Nordland ===<br />
==== Bodø ====<br />
Status 2/10<br />
<br />
* [[User:AlecTBM|Alexander Frøyseth]] [mailto:alexander.froyseth@gmail.com alexander.froyseth@gmail.com]<br />
* Ole Marius<br />
* Stian Vading<br />
=== Rogaland ===<br />
Status 1/10<br />
<br />
*[[User:Dalaker|Tore Dalaker]] [mailto:tore@dalaker.com tore@dalaker.com]<br />
<br />
=== Sør-Trøndelag ===<br />
==== Trondheim ====<br />
Status 11/20<br />
<br />
*[[User:andy000|Andreas Kalvå]] [mailto:andy@samfundet.no andy@samfundet.no]<br />
Send mail om du er interessert.<br />
<br />
=== Østlandet ===<br />
==== Oslo, Akershus, Buskerud, Vestfold ====<br />
Status 20/20(30?)<br />
<br />
* [[User:Ixian|Heikki Sørum]] [mailto:heikkis@matnat.uio.no] <br/> Interessert? mail meg.<br />
* [[User:Bobkare|Knut Arne Bjørndal]] [mailto:bob@cakebox.net]<br />
<br />
== Poland ==<br />
=== dolnośląskie ===<br />
==== Wrocław ====<br />
<br />
* Special group buy site: https://www.kumulator.pl/show/group/35<br />
<br />
== Portugal ==<br />
=== Aveiro ===<br />
==== Aveiro ====<br />
Status : 2/10<br />
<br />
* [[User:Ruben|Ruben Mendes]]<br />
* [[User:kuyky|Tiago Saraiva]] <br /> [mailto:destructhor88@gmail.pt]<br />
<br />
== Sweden ==<br />
If insufficient number of people, orders could be merged and remailed perhaps<br />
<br />
=== Svealand ===<br />
==== Stockholm ====<br />
Status : 4/10<br />
<br />
* Erland Lewin <br /> mailto:erland@lewin.nu<br />
* Simon Kågström <br /> mailto:simon.kagstrom@gmail.com<br />
* Ingvaldur Sigurjonsson <br /> mailto:ingi@ultimalabor.se<br />
* Adam Johansson <br /> mailto:adam@sollentunaholm.se<br />
<br />
==== Örebro ====<br />
Status : 1/10<br />
<br />
* Anders Petersson <br /> [mailto:demitar@worldforge.org demitar@worldforge.org]<br />
<br />
=== Norrland ===<br />
==== Umeå ====<br />
Status : 1/10<br />
<br />
* [[User:Zash|Zash]] [[Special:Emailuser/Zash|Contact]]<br />
<br />
== Switzerland ==<br />
==== Zurich ====<br />
Status : 11/20<br />
<br />
* Simon Wenner <br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Nowic Contact]<br />
* Simon Schreiber <br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Magbeat Contact]<br />
* Markus Huggler <br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Magbeat Contact]<br />
* Andre Timmermann <br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/darktim Contact]<br />
* Raffael Schmid <br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/darktim Contact]<br />
* Pascal Weller <br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/darktim Contact]<br />
* Nick Zbinden <br /> [mailto:nickik@gmx.ch]<br />
* Marcel Wirth <br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Skarhand Contact]<br />
* Marcel Lütolf <br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/NeRo Contact]<br />
* Christian Corrodi <br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Matto Contact]<br />
* Mirko Klingauf <br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/RealAtaman Contact]<br />
<br />
== Spain ==<br />
=== Madrid ===<br />
==== Madrid ====<br />
Status : 1/10<br />
<br />
* Rafael Campos <br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Methril Contact]<br />
<br />
=== Zaragoza ===<br />
==== Zaragoza ====<br />
Status : 1/10<br />
<br />
* Alejandro R. Mosteo <br /> alejandro AT mosteo · com<br />
<br />
=== Barcelona ===<br />
==== Barcelona ====<br />
Status : 2/10<br />
<br />
* José Luis Pérez <br/>[[Special:Emailuser/jluis|Contact]]<br />
* David Reyes Samblas Martinez<br/>[[Special:Emailuser/mutrox|Contact]]<br />
<br />
== UAE ==<br />
Status: 1/10<br />
* Yaser Ammar <br /> [[Special:Emailuser/Waraqa|Contact]]<br />
<br />
== USA ==<br />
=== Colorado ===<br />
==== Denver ====<br />
Status: 7/10<br />
* Shawn Sullivan <br /> [[mailto:shelbydz87@yahoo.com shelbydz87@yahoo.com]]<br />
* Peter Abplanalp <br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/alderion Contact]<br />
<br />
=== Southern California ===<br />
==== Los Angeles ====<br />
Status: 2/10<br />
<br />
* Ian Douglas <br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Iandouglas Contact me here]<br />
* Matthew <br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Wetmoko Contact]<br />
<br />
==== San Diego (inc. San Diego county) ====<br />
Status: 1/10<br />
<br />
* Peter Naulls <br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Pnaulls Contact]<br />
<br />
=== Tennessee ===<br />
==== Memphis ====<br />
Status: 1/10<br />
* Peter O'Connor <br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/poconnor Contact]<br />
<br />
=== Texas ===<br />
==== Austin (2/10) ====<br />
* Dale Schumacher [[Special:Emailuser/dalnefre|Contact]]<br />
* Michael Cosby [[Special:Emailuser/mcosby|Contact]]<br />
<br />
=== Mid-Atlantic ===<br />
==== Virginia====<br />
===== Richmond (1/10)=====<br />
* Philippe Gerard <br/>[[Special:Emailuser/feydreva|Contact]]<br />
<br />
==== New York ====<br />
Status: 2/10<br />
<br />
* Bert Hartmann <br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/BertHartm Contact me here]<br />
* Michael Cole mailto:mjcole137@gmail.com <br /><br />
<br />
== UK ==<br />
=== England ===<br />
==== London ====<br />
Status : 9/10<br />
<br />
* Juergen Schinker <br /> mailto:ba1020@homie.homelinux.net<br />
* David Pottage (actually in Reading)<br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/chrestomanci Contact]<br />
* aled <br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/aled Contact]<br />
* Bin Zong (actually in Birmingham)<br /> [mailto:hunter_00zb@hotmail.com]<br />
* Robert Piasek (actually in Southampton)<br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Queen6 Contact]<br />
* James Olney (Actually in Oxford) <br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Webjames Contact]<br />
* Stuart (actually in Scotland, will split if we get enough people) <br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/hoagster Contact]<br />
* Tom Scholl (Cambridge, travel to London now and then anyway so could pick up) <br /> [mailto:thomasscholl@gmail.com]<br />
* Weiss (Cambridge, could collect from London) <br /> [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/Weiss Contact]<br />
<br />
== Latvia ==<br />
=== Riga ===<br />
==== Riga ====<br />
Status : 1/10<br />
* [[User:VRGhost]]<br />
[[Category:Information| ]]<br />
[[Category:community| ]]</div>Mivaho